Type2 cases for different paths

[Deleted member 33972]

I‘m not sure that’s a helpful assumption, and have no idea what information you might have used to reach that conclusion, except perhaps your own experience. And if so, then I think that’s unfortunate. Most T1s here, and mist T1s I know anywhere don’t think that at all.

There is certainly a minority view that ‘the other lot’ (from either side of the same fence) have it easy, and it’s completely unfair - but that’s certainly not a view I see expressed by any members here, and if it were I’m sure it would be called out by the many members here who think that access to appropriate technology and education should be equitable whatever classification one has - so that each person with diabetes has the best chance of building their own ‘diabetes toolkit’ and a personalised approach to eating and managing their blood glucose in a way that works for them.

I am aware though that regular forum contributors, visitors, readers and lurkers (hello!) are not necessarily average patients. Seeking out a forum and accessing its content suggests a degree of self-motovation and an interest to be actively involved in your own care.

I am led to believe by medical professionals and diabetes specialists that these are fairly rare attributes in the diabetes population as a whole. I think there are many many people with diabetes, who for all sorts of different reasons, simply do not want to, feel able to, or are able to use those more intensive glucose management strategies.

And the more people we can connect with, encourage and support on the forum the better as far as I am concerned. So that each person can find their own way through the maze of options.

Aren’t there different kinds of carbs ? Not all carbs are equal. My friend had type 1 and never restricted her carbs as in potatoes, pasta and rice. She gave talks in the hospital in Nottingham on how to manage type 1 and insulin.

 

[trophywench]

... and when you and I were teenagers/newly weds - the Gas Board and the Electricity board used to put on cookery demos at the drop of a hat, manned by folk like Mary Berry, Pru Leith, Delia Smith and numerous others either open to the public or booked by ladies organisations for their members - free. Free adult education at evening classes at the local technical college was the norm - so my mum first learned hand tailoring to clothe us and herself, then flower arranging - most of my married friends asked and paid her to do large dried flower displays for their homes when they were all the rage in the 1970s - sis and I were sick of the sight of ruddy helicrysums - and latterly millinery. (no thanks, I never needed a pull on polyester hat, and still don't, ta)

So OK we can both be critical - but really to be honest - they don't get any of the educational things we could access FOC when it suited us, do they.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I brought Type 1's into this because it is mainly Type 1's (though also some misguided Type 2's) who claim that Type 2's should just eat in moderation and not count carbs. I cut/paste the reasons they give:
1. They claim it upsets Type 2's and causes poor mental health.
2. They say that 'eating less and moving more' is enough.
3. They agree with the NHS, GPs (and( apparently Diabetes,org.uk) that Blood Glucose meters are not required for Type 2's unless they deteriorate such as to have to use strong (potential hypo causing) medication.

You do realise that type 2 is potentially insulin resistance, not just a lack of beta cells producing insulin?
The best advice I got was "eat less, move more"
Reducing the insulin resistance, and losing weight reversed my diabetes, could I have done that simply by being treated in the same way as a type 1, who isn't the same as me?
And like many, when I looked at the red site it was always "diabetes was for life, it can never be reversed, it has to be low carb forever, just eat more fat, and carry on as you always have". There was even a clique over which fat was best!
And others obsessing over .5g of carbs.
It was amazingly depressing to read that forum when I was first diagnosed.
I realised that's why the NHS don't promote micro management of carb counting.
Thankfully I found other ideas out there.

 

[PattiEvans]

Not all surgeries deny T2s the ability to test (at least when newly diagnosed). I belong to the Patients' panel in our surgery and one day a lady came to a meeting (the only meeting she ever did come to, though she'd been on the panel for years). She told us that her hubby had just been diagnosed T2 and that she didn't understand the dietary advice. Although I am T1 I had been Admin on DSF for many years where we welcomed both types and where I had learned a lot about T2 and diet. I completely understood her confusion regarding the diet sheet she'd been supplied with. It was a bit of a mish mash. I arranged a meeting with the nurse who specialised in diabetes at the surgery. She told me that she does in fact provide newly diagnosed T2s with means to test, at least at the beginning. We had a very good collaboration and I produced the attached poster which was displayed in the waiting room until the surgery moved into a new health centre where there are no noticeboards. I did have to make some concessions when producing it, but it was at least along the right lines I think.

I also produced a recipe leaflet which explained substitutes etc (e.g. cauli rice and all manner of other things) but unfortunately it was never used because the hospital DSN at the time said that "low carb is not the line the NHS is taking". I never really finished formatting it because I was banging my head on a brick wall, but from the unfinished .pdf you will get the idea.

However that doesn't detract from the fact that our surgery takes a very pro-active approach to T2. Having said that, hubby and I were in the supermarket last week when I bumped into an acquaintance we hadn't seen for a long time. When we asked how he was he told us he was diabetic "but I just take the pills and carry on as usual". The conversation continued and I did point out a few items in his trolley which "may not be that good for you" i.e. bread and bananas amongst others. He attends a surgery a couple of miles away and apparently all the advice he was given was to take the Metformin. I suggested he join this forum, but he said he was completely technophobe and had nothing to do with computers. Shame... but at 74 he's still farming and has a very active life, so I suppose that helps.

 

[PattiEvans]

PS I also gave the nurse a copy of "Jennifer's advice" which she did use.

 

[Leadinglights]

Not all surgeries deny T2s the ability to test (at least when newly diagnosed). I belong to the Patients' panel in our surgery and one day a lady came to a meeting (the only meeting she ever did come to, though she'd been on the panel for years). She told us that her hubby had just been diagnosed T2 and that she didn't understand the dietary advice. Although I am T1 I had been Admin on DSF for many years where we welcomed both types and where I had learned a lot about T2 and diet. I completely understood her confusion regarding the diet sheet she'd been supplied with. It was a bit of a mish mash. I arranged a meeting with the nurse who specialised in diabetes at the surgery. She told me that she does in fact provide newly diagnosed T2s with means to test, at least at the beginning. We had a very good collaboration and I produced the attached poster which was displayed in the waiting room until the surgery moved into a new health centre where there are no noticeboards. I did have to make some concessions when producing it, but it was at least along the right lines I think.

I also produced a recipe leaflet which explained substitutes etc (e.g. cauli rice and all manner of other things) but unfortunately it was never used because the hospital DSN at the time said that "low carb is not the line the NHS is taking". I never really finished formatting it because I was banging my head on a brick wall, but from the unfinished .pdf you will get the idea.

However that doesn't detract from the fact that our surgery takes a very pro-active approach to T2. Having said that, hubby and I were in the supermarket last week when I bumped into an acquaintance we hadn't seen for a long time. When we asked how he was he told us he was diabetic "but I just take the pills and carry on as usual". The conversation continued and I did point out a few items in his trolley which "may not be that good for you" i.e. bread and bananas amongst others. He attends a surgery a couple of miles away and apparently all the advice he was given was to take the Metformin. I suggested he join this forum, but he said he was completely technophobe and had nothing to do with computers. Shame... but at 74 he's still farming and has a very active life, so I suppose that helps.

Your poster is brilliant, there should be some way it could be incorporated into the info people can find when they come here looking for what to eat when first diagnosed. It would make the changes they need to make not quite so daunting and very possible.

 

[PattiEvans]

Thank you @Leadinglights. I recall I had to dumb it down a bit as they were mental about fat.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Your poster is brilliant, there should be some way it could be incorporated into the info people can find when they come here looking for what to eat when first diagnosed. It would make the changes they need to make not quite so daunting and very possible.

It is very good,
but,
there are things on there which contradict some NHS advice on areas like heart health, blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.
The NHS doesn't see diabetes as a single and only issue, they have to treat the whole person's health issue.
I had great support, I was given a meter, I used it to build a profile of which carbs made me a spike, and which didn't.
(Carbs certainly aren't all equal by any means)
Working with an NHS dietician we adapted the healthy plate, and a low calorie low fat diet with excellent results all round, not just laser targeted at reducing BG readings.
But would everyone go to those lengths when diagnosed?

 

[Deleted member 33972]

It surprises me that so many people use the forums on this site and don’t use learning zone! There’s plenty of information on the website about what we can eat for both type 1 and type 2 yet this discussion goes on all the time. Using the learning zone is what made me defend myself when zero carbs were being forced on me and my doctors advice trashed. It’s educational about our food and even gives hacks and fake always. The information is on this website!

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[ianf0ster]

You do realise that type 2 is potentially insulin resistance, not just a lack of beta cells producing insulin?
The best advice I got was "eat less, move more"
Reducing the insulin resistance, and losing weight reversed my diabetes, could I have done that simply by being treated in the same way as a type 1, who isn't the same as me?
And like many, when I looked at the red site it was always "diabetes was for life, it can never be reversed, it has to be low carb forever, just eat more fat, and carry on as you always have". There was even a clique over which fat was best!
And others obsessing over .5g of carbs.
It was amazingly depressing to read that forum when I was first diagnosed.
I realised that's why the NHS don't promote micro management of carb counting.
Thankfully I found other ideas out there.

If eat less, move more worked in more than a tiny minority then there would hardly be any obese people or Type 2 diabetics. That advice has made both the obesity and the T2DM crisis much worse. And even you admit that it was the Newcastle Diet - not Med way of eating that got your Type 2 under control! So why do you keep knocking the methods (including Newcastle Diet) that do get it under control?

You have just said that you were given a BG meter - why then are you against their use in tailoring a personalised way of eating for other Type 2's? Most Type 2's don't get a Meter and many are given advice about eating at least 30gms of carbs up to 6 times per day - 3 meals and up to 3 snacks! Yet you seem to support that.

Type 2 is mostly associated with over production of insulin by beta cells, rather than under production.

Some slim Type 2's get into remission through Low Carb without losing weight, though it's unusual for a Type 2 to actually gain weight while getting into remission - I only know of one. Fortunately due to it probably causing my T2 and 3x CAB in the first place, the type of mediterranean way of eating plus 5 a Day and the emphasis on low fat, whole grains etc. had already made me gain over 14lbs by the time I was diagnosed. By then I was 2lbs overweight so I could afford to lose a little weight even if a crash diet such as the Newcastle seemed unrealistic for me.
Nobody in this thread has suggested that a Type 2 can get into remission by injecting Insulin like a Type 1, in fact I state that that the remission rate from medication (other than continued metformin) alone is approximately 0% i.e. most GP's just keep prescribing more and more medication.

The NHS, DUK, American Diabetes Association (who's CEO used low carb to put her own T2DM into remission) all recognise that low carb has a place in treatment of Diabetes> UK well known politicians Tom Watson and David Davis used low carb for both treating diabetes and obesity. Both PM Boris Johnson and ex-health minister Matt Hancock used low carb in order to lose weight.

 

[ianf0ster]

It surprises me that so many people use the forums on this site and don’t use learning zone! There’s plenty of information on the website about what we can eat for both type 1 and type 2 yet this discussion goes on all the time. Using the learning zone is what made me defend myself when zero carbs were being forced on me and my doctors advice trashed. It’s educational about our food and even gives hacks and fake always. The information is on this website!

Already registered with Learning Zone? Sign in to your existing profile below. | Learning Zone

Join our Learning Zone today. Clinically trusted advice about diabetes management based on real experiences. Highly commended by the British Medical Association. Over 35,000 people with diabetes have registered.

learningzone.diabetes.org.uk

Zero carbs 'were being forced on you' ?

 

[silentsquirrel]

It surprises me that so many people use the forums on this site and don’t use learning zone! There’s plenty of information on the website about what we can eat for both type 1 and type 2 yet this discussion goes on all the time. Using the learning zone is what made me defend myself when zero carbs were being forced on me and my doctors advice trashed. It’s educational about our food and even gives hacks and fake always. The information is on this website!

Already registered with Learning Zone? Sign in to your existing profile below. | Learning Zone

Join our Learning Zone today. Clinically trusted advice about diabetes management based on real experiences. Highly commended by the British Medical Association. Over 35,000 people with diabetes have registered.

learningzone.diabetes.org.uk

The Learning Zone is quite recent, and many of us have been on the forum for years before it. The forum used to be much more separate from the main DUK site.

DUK is still closely wedded to NHS dietary advice. This is slowly improving. When I first looked at the food advice on DUK about 9 years ago, as a T2 I was being advised to eat carbs equivalent to 14 slices of bread a day! Although it is improving, many of us have found that the Eatwell Guide, Nhs advice and DUK advice simply does not work well for us. Hence the discrepancy between the main site and advice from many (not all) members of the forum.

You have to find what works well for you.

I cannot think of any member of the forum who would advise zero carb.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

If eat less, move more worked in more than a tiny minority then there would hardly be any obese people or Type 2 diabetics. That advice has made both the obesity and the T2DM crisis much worse. And even you admit that it was the Newcastle Diet - not Med way of eating that got your Type 2 under control! So why do you keep knocking the methods (including Newcastle Diet) that do get it under control?

You have just said that you were given a BG meter - why then are you against their use in tailoring a personalised way of eating for other Type 2's? Most Type 2's don't get a Meter and many are given advice about eating at least 30gms of carbs up to 6 times per day - 3 meals and up to 3 snacks! Yet you seem to support that.

Type 2 is mostly associated with over production of insulin by beta cells, rather than under production.

Some slim Type 2's get into remission through Low Carb without losing weight, though it's unusual for a Type 2 to actually gain weight while getting into remission - I only know of one. Fortunately due to it probably causing my T2 and 3x CAB in the first place, the type of mediterranean way of eating plus 5 a Day and the emphasis on low fat, whole grains etc. had already made me gain over 14lbs by the time I was diagnosed. By then I was 2lbs overweight so I could afford to lose a little weight even if a crash diet such as the Newcastle seemed unrealistic for me.
Nobody in this thread has suggested that a Type 2 can get into remission by injecting Insulin like a Type 1, in fact I state that that the remission rate from medication (other than continued metformin) alone is approximately 0% i.e. most GP's just keep prescribing more and more medication.

The NHS, DUK, American Diabetes Association (who's CEO used low carb to put her own T2DM into remission) all recognise that low carb has a place in treatment of Diabetes> UK well known politicians Tom Watson and David Davis used low carb for both treating diabetes and obesity. Both PM Boris Johnson and ex-health minister Matt Hancock used low carb in order to lose weight.

Your diet made you gain weight?
Who put the food in your mouth?
And you are knocking the NHS for advising you to eat less?

No, I said the Newcastle diet reversed my diabetes.
Low calorie low fat, the NHS healthy plate got it "under control"
Let's be clear about what I actually did. there was no low carb, and there was definitely low fat and low calorie, as per NHS guidance.
Then the Newcastle diet, as per NHS guidance now to completely reverse it.
And now I certainly don't low carb.

And now off out for a curry, with all the rice and bread, and then several pints of real ale.

 

[PattiEvans]

It is very good,
but,
there are things on there which contradict some NHS advice on areas like heart health, blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.

@travellor Could you point out which things please? It was scrutinised by a GP (obviously) before being posted on their notice board.

IMHO and that of many qualified medical practitioners, the "Healthy eating" plate is responsible for a great deal of the obesity epidemic. After being diagnosed with diabetes I was sent to the dietitian who advised me to eat from the Eatwell plate. I gained 3 stone and it has taken a long time to get rid of it.

If you look into the whole heart health issue you will find out that it is mostly based on the flawed findings of the study conducted by one hugely egotistical man by the name of Ancel Keys. It started as an analysis of the diets of 22 countries and the ones that didn't fit his hypothesis he threw out of the study, retaining only 7 countries which "proved" his hypothesis.

With due respect @jeanettem1 I cannot recall anyone in this forum recommending zero carbs. I do know another forum where they do, perhaps you have mixed them up?

 

[Lucyr]

@travellor Could you point out which things please? It was scrutinised by a GP (obviously) before being posted on their notice board.

IMHO and that of many qualified medical practitioners, the "Healthy eating" plate is responsible for a great deal of the obesity epidemic. After being diagnosed with diabetes I was sent to the dietitian who advised me to eat from the Eatwell plate. I gained 3 stone and it has taken a long time to get rid of it.

If you look into the whole heart health issue you will find out that it is mostly based on the flawed findings of the study conducted by one hugely egotistical man by the name of Ancel Keys. It started as an analysis of the diets of 22 countries and the ones that didn't fit his hypothesis he threw out of the study, retaining only 7 countries which "proved" his hypothesis.

With due respect @jeanettem1 I cannot recall anyone in this forum recommending zero carbs. I do know another forum where they do, perhaps you have mixed them up?

There are definitely people on this forum that are very pushy about going very low carb (albeit not zero carb since carbs are in everything), I could write a list…

 

[Inka]

Perhaps people have looked into the whole heart health thing @Pattidevans and beg to differ? The idea that people just haven’t read the literature or looked at various sides of the argument is often wrong.

 

[ianf0ster]

Your diet made you gain weight?
Who put the food in your mouth?
And you are knocking the NHS for advising you to eat less?

No, I was well below the median for normal BMI - so why would I want to lose weight - I just wanted to be healthy and never suspected that the NHS advice would make me less healthy! - Until it had already done so twice.

This is one reason I try to distinguish between a way of eating and a calorie controlled diet.

I've had at least 3 different ways of eating during my 70yrs. The only one that seemed to make me less healthy was in following the NHS advice. Because it emphasised fruit over veg and because it actually said at least 5 a day, I was eating at least 2 portions of fruit per day every day and an average of 7 out of the 5 per day. Breakfast was always 1 large banana and some boiled oats, lunch usually a salad, all bread, rice, pasta was whole grain. I ate raw carrots as snacks and either 1 apple or an orange each day. Protein was mainly chicken breast because it's lower in fat than turkey (no beef, some occasional ham with fat sliced off - no salmon or other fatty fish because of the fat) and low fat versions of everything. I was usually hungry and so I gained weight. The food meant that the only way I could exercise was to carb load i.e. over eat.
Of course after my coronary bypass, my GP told me to just go even lower fat. He even told me to cut down on salt - I told him I was never adding salt to my food. He said there is more than we need in take-aways. I said what take-aways, I don't eat take-aways!
Then same again after my Type 2 diagnosis. Only now, when I suggested coming off statins he said LDL couldn't be too low. So I told him zero LDL is not compatible with life!

I'm knocking the NHS for saying fat was bad, but carbs - even in things like fruit juice and baked potato were good. So I never thought to question whether a low fat food with added sugar was better for me than the traditional full fat version I had grown up with as a child. Or that eggs were bad, or that margarine was better than butter, even though even the insects wouldn't eat it!

And I'm saying that your view that all a T2D needs to do is to follow the same advice that led to my T2D, is just wrong. Time will tell if you are actually cured or just in remission, but I know that I can't allow myself to go back to eating that way.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

A gentle reminder to members that this forum is intended to offer support and encouragement to others, as they build their own unique diabetes-management approach. People can share their own experiences, but must be careful not to seem to be pressing their view or approach on others.

It is clear that some people are happier with the official NHS advice, and have success using those approaches. But it is also clear that those suggestions did not work for other members - so
if members are arriving and trying their best but not seeing the results they are looking for, it can be helpful to hear examples of slightly different approaches, and then to make up their own mind about the relative merits and risks involved for them as an individual.

There is no ‘one size fits all’ approach, because human beings are incredibly complex organisms, so there is no one ‘right’ approach - only the right approach for that person, at that time.

Please be careful to construct your posts in a way that does not dismiss any other views, strategies or approaches, or suggest that these are somehow inherently ‘wrong’ - even if you know they would not work for, or even just appeal to you as an individual.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Aren’t there different kinds of carbs ? Not all carbs are equal. My friend had type 1 and never restricted her carbs as in potatoes, pasta and rice. She gave talks in the hospital in Nottingham on how to manage type 1 and insulin.

Yes, some carbs (those in beans and pulses) are constructed differently, and not all of the total carb content is absorbed. And for some people, the presence of extra fibre (eg in wholegrain or seeded versions) can help to slow the absorption of other carbohydrates.

However reaction to different types of carbs is very individual, and some people observe little if any difference in the speed of absorption of ‘brown’ vs ‘white’ versions.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

@travellor Could you point out which things please? It was scrutinised by a GP (obviously) before being posted on their notice board.

IMHO and that of many qualified medical practitioners, the "Healthy eating" plate is responsible for a great deal of the obesity epidemic. After being diagnosed with diabetes I was sent to the dietitian who advised me to eat from the Eatwell plate. I gained 3 stone and it has taken a long time to get rid of it.

If you look into the whole heart health issue you will find out that it is mostly based on the flawed findings of the study conducted by one hugely egotistical man by the name of Ancel Keys. It started as an analysis of the diets of 22 countries and the ones that didn't fit his hypothesis he threw out of the study, retaining only 7 countries which "proved" his hypothesis.

With due respect @jeanettem1 I cannot recall anyone in this forum recommending zero carbs. I do know another forum where they do, perhaps you have mixed them up?

With reference to the previous admin comment, the following is meant in the spirit of answering the question, rather than ignoring the points raised in it, and trying to be helpful by answering them, and hopefully modifying the issues with the poster especially.


No, the eatwell plate isn't responsible for anything, it's based on a great variety of research.
Not simply from a study from over half a century ago.
People can choose to blame it for their eating issues, but at the end of the day, it goes hand in hand with our own responsibly for eating, no one but ourselves puts the food in our mouths.
I simply calm it down now, and eat less when my weight drifts upwards.
As recommended alongside all other NHS advice.
"Eat less, move more"


Keys has just become a convenient whipping boy who is pulled out of the past, along with the 1860's Banting diet book.
If you look into whole heart health you will find a lot of much more recent information out there.
It's well worth keeping up to date with.

As to the poster.

No food can be eaten freely. Moderation is key.
There is never a suggestion snacks especially can be eaten freely.
Fish and oil can't be eaten freely, they are highly calorific, and farmed fish are high in pcp's and other contaminantions, and can even be carcinogenic in quantity and the current suggestion is to be limited to one or two a week.
Nuts are highly calorific, oily, very often heavily salted, and not normally included without the suggestion to check for allergies, especially if you are advising to suddenly switch to an unlimited amount daily.
Diet drinks are proving to be unhealthy as they are a chemical cocktail, and many on here suspect they also raise their BG, but personally I haven't seen that.
Sugar free jelly is a chemical cocktail by design.
Hard cheese has a portion size, but soft cheese is preferable, spreadable cheese has added sugar though, so not good.
As you say, in moderation. Not as an unlimited snack.
Is it worth mentioning the comment on low fat food may have added sugar, that advice is so out of date, probably at least by ten years, personally I use low fat caser dressing, it's got less carbs than full fat. (not my driver, less fat is good for me)
Things move on.
Fibre is important, and should be included.

Red meat is definitely food that should be limited on any diet, for many known reasons.

I looked at a lot of foods when I dieted, and a lot of research on the effects, and also what carbs, fats and proteins are in them.

Back to the nuts, without being specific, the highest carb nuts run up to 22g per 100g (Cashews)
That's a lot of carbs for an unlimited snack.

A Ginsters Steak and Ale pastie has less, at 19.6g
Asda breaded chicken is just 14g
Smoked haddock fish cakes come in at 15g
A bubble and squeak frittata comes in at just 7.6g

All per 100g

All processed food, but all more diabetic friendly than the nuts.

Even pizza starts at just on 30g carbs per 100g,
So 75g of pizza, or 100g of nuts for a snack?
One is your absolute avoid, one's eat unlimited?