Covid-19 response

[Dragonheart]

Is this nonsense still running?
I found arguing sensibly is futile.
"Ignore" doesn't feed it though.

In my defence I’m new to this forum and dont know the personalities yet. I’m fool enough to think it’s possible to have sensible discussions on most things. I‘m old enough I should know better.

 

[Amity Island]

Is this nonsense still running?

@travellor what nonsense?

 

[Satan’s little helper]

I realise it’s not aimed at me personally. But the crazier end of disbelief and the onward transmission of conspiracy had a knock on effect on us all. So much of what you say is repeated and half thought out theories, twisted truths and cherry picked data I don’t feel it’s worth more of my time (or sanity) trying to point out the factual errors or misconceptions.

Nor is it black and white where a person believes everything was a lie/mistake or none of it. Yes there were errors and quite possibly presentations of things that weren’t accurate, for a whole host of reasons and not all of them nefarious.

Yes there should be questions asked about a lot of what happened, but some of the theories out there are frankly ridiculous and the genuine concerns get lost in the noise of that.

Hello,

I hang out with a group of friends (a farmer, an engineer and astrophysicist.) known them for years.
Just to kill the time we debate some weird nonsensical experiment like dropping 2 owls out of an aircraft (one wet on dry.) which would fall the quickest? (Of course “logically” they would both need to be drugged to stop the flapping.)
The universe in a black hole theory attributing to ghosts. Or the possible fact we are living in the 17th century due to some “pope” twiddling with the calendar..
The theory “Novichok” actually coming from Porton Down and Putin not accountable for “that one.”
Possibly a hole in the moon. “The moon landing was real. I remember where I was. Holding the camera on the film set.”

It tickles our shared humour like a “Derek & Clive” sketch. But that’s just four blokes avin a laugh.
Out of respect for people I don’t know on this forum. I wouldn’t share where we drew the conclusions regarding how a bat and pangolin mixed this potion.

But then, that’s just a bit of fun between long standing friends.

I’ve seen similar jousts turn nasty in other areas. And I’m just intrigued & bemused reading the “debate.”

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Hello,

I hang out with a group of friends (a farmer, an engineer and astrophysicist.) known them for years.
Just to kill the time we debate some weird nonsensical experiment like dropping 2 owls out of an aircraft (one wet on dry.) which would fall the quickest? (Of course “logically” they would both need to be drugged to stop the flapping.)
The universe in a black hole theory attributing to ghosts. Or the possible fact we are living in the 17th century due to some “pope” twiddling with the calendar..
The theory “Novichok” actually coming from Porton Down and Putin not accountable for “that one.”
Possibly a hole in the moon. “The moon landing was real. I remember where I was. Holding the camera on the film set.”

It tickles our shared humour like a “Derek & Clive” sketch. But that’s just four blokes avin a laugh.
Out of respect for people I don’t know on this forum. I wouldn’t share where we drew the conclusions regarding how a bat and pangolin mixed this potion.

But then, that’s just a bit of fun between long standing friends.

I’ve seen similar jousts turn nasty in other areas. And I’m just intrigued & bemused reading the “debate.”

That depends.
Does the wet owl have the ability to spread its wings?

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Prior to testing on humans?

Possibly not, but the underlying technology has been, and the initial human trials of the final vaccines were on small groups of people (as is usual), and (unusually) were allowed to run in parallel with animal trials. (And critically, they had money to fund the trials. Non-human primates are (rightly) expensive.)

I'm honestly not seeing the problem with this. Yes, the vaccines were developed very quickly, but the processes which allowed that have been well described. (Basically money: ordinarily researchers need to do one phase at a time and then wait until they get funding for the next part, and normally manufacturers wait until they have an approved vaccine to make before preparing to produce it. The waiting for sufficient funding to be approved makes up a significant part of the overall time.)

 

[Amity Island]

Possibly not, but the underlying technology has been, and the initial human trials of the final vaccines were on small groups of people (as is usual), and (unusually) were allowed to run in parallel with animal trials. (And critically, they had money to fund the trials. Non-human primates are (rightly) expensive.)

You say you are not seeing a problem with this. It's always been a legal requirement to test on animals first (for a reason i'd assume, not saying I agree with animals suffering though), that is the problem.

It has always been part of the process to test all new medicines, drugs and vaccines (which is classified as a drug) on animals prior to testing on humans. One can't say "we've used this or that component before" so no need to test these new drugs. The entire drug has to be trialled regardless.

Three stages of testing drugs​

There are three main stages of testing:

1. The drugs are tested using computer models and skin cells grown using human stem cells in the laboratory. This allows the efficacy and possible side effects to be tested. Many substances fail this first test of a preclinical drug trial because they damage cells or do not seem to work.
2. Drugs that pass the first stage are tested on animals in the second part of a preclinical drug trial. In the UK, new medicines have to undergo these tests. But it is illegal to test cosmetics and tobacco products on animals. A typical test involves giving a known amount of the substance to the animals, then monitoring them carefully for any side-effects.
3. Drugs that have passed animal tests are used in human clinical trials. They are tested on healthy volunteers to check that they are safe. The substances are then tested on people with the illness to ensure that they are safe and that they work. Low doses of the drug are used initially, and if this is safe the dosage increases until the optimum dosage is identified.

The development and testing of new drugs - Treating, curing and preventing disease - AQA - GCSE Biology (Single Science) Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize

Revise infection and response and learn about treating, curing and preventing disease for GCSE Biology, AQA.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Amity Island]

Hello,

I hang out with a group of friends (a farmer, an engineer and astrophysicist.) known them for years.
Just to kill the time we debate some weird nonsensical experiment like dropping 2 owls out of an aircraft (one wet on dry.) which would fall the quickest? (Of course “logically” they would both need to be drugged to stop the flapping.)
The universe in a black hole theory attributing to ghosts. Or the possible fact we are living in the 17th century due to some “pope” twiddling with the calendar..
The theory “Novichok” actually coming from Porton Down and Putin not accountable for “that one.”
Possibly a hole in the moon. “The moon landing was real. I remember where I was. Holding the camera on the film set.”

It tickles our shared humour like a “Derek & Clive” sketch. But that’s just four blokes avin a laugh.
Out of respect for people I don’t know on this forum. I wouldn’t share where we drew the conclusions regarding how a bat and pangolin mixed this potion.

But then, that’s just a bit of fun between long standing friends.

I’ve seen similar jousts turn nasty in other areas. And I’m just intrigued & bemused reading the “debate.”

Hi,

What if this group of friends said that the first known transmission of the sars cov2 virus was found in the very same place (Haslemere) in the UK's (a total land area of 98,628 square miles) biggest ever "fake" pandemic trial that took place a few years earlier?

BBC programme faked virus 'pandemic' in Haslemere two years ago

Contagion: The BBC Four Pandemic used Haslemere to launch its virus experiment

www.getsurrey.co.uk

 

[Satan’s little helper]

Hi,

What if this group of friends said that the first known transmission of the sars cov2 virus was found in the very same place (Haslemere) in the UK's (a total land area of 98,628 square miles) biggest ever "fake" pandemic trial that took place a few years earlier?

BBC programme faked virus 'pandemic' in Haslemere two years ago

Contagion: The BBC Four Pandemic used Haslemere to launch its virus experiment

www.getsurrey.co.uk

It was a reasonably accurate simulated event based on computer modelling?

Unlike the Flintstones which depicts a prehistorically inaccurate setting.
But spookily there is a clue in the theme song. “Modern Stone Age family.”
Which suggests the raggedy clothing, the crude wheels on the cars which would not have been invented till around 4/2000 BC? Large talking birds & lizards suggesting “mutants” after an apocalyptic event, like a nuclear war. 😉

 

[Amity Island]

It was a reasonably accurate simulated event based on computer modelling?

And what would you calculate the odds being for the 2020 pandemic being traced to the very same village (Haslemere) as the BBC show "contagion" 2018 pandemic study?

Dr Fry, an associate professor at University College London, wrote: “At some point in the future — possibly the very near future — Britain will be hit by a deadly pandemic, and its impact could be utterly devastating.”

 

[Satan’s little helper]

And what would you calculate the odds being for the 2020 pandemic being traced to the very same village (Haslemere) as the BBC show "contagion" 2018 pandemic study?

Dr Fry, an associate professor at University College London, wrote: “At some point in the future — possibly the very near future — Britain will be hit by a deadly pandemic, and its impact could be utterly devastating.”

It’s a bit like “The infinite monkey theorem.”

like the chances of this happening, I suppose.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

You say you are not seeing a problem with this. It's always been a legal requirement to test on animals first (for a reason i'd assume, not saying I agree with animals suffering though), that is the problem.

That maybe puts the initial volunteers at greater risk. And had the animals and the volunteers come to harm I'm sure everyone would be reconsidering their choices, but obviously that didn't happen.

Why should anyone else (including the volunteers for subsequent phases) care? The animal testing was done, after all. It's not like animal testing is perfect at reducing harm anyway.

 

[Amity Island]

It’s a bit like “The infinite monkey theorem.”

like the chances of this happening, I suppose.

Just inevitable chance?

I think it more likely to be a case of "monkey business" than "monkey theorem."

Was it "monkey theorem" or "monkey business" that the first man in the world to have the emergency use authorisation pfizer vaccine to be William Shakespeare?

William Shakespeare - the first man in world to get Covid jab - dies aged 81

Tributes have been paid to Mr Shakespeare who hit global headlines on December 8 last year when he became the first man to have the jab at the University Hospital Coventry and Warwickshire

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[Amity Island]

That maybe puts the initial volunteers at greater risk. And had the animals and the volunteers come to harm I'm sure everyone would be reconsidering their choices, but obviously that didn't happen.

Why should anyone else (including the volunteers for subsequent phases) care? The animal testing was done, after all. It's not like animal testing is perfect at reducing harm anyway.

It was simply illegal to do so, for new drugs to go straight to human trials. Although; that will all change no doubt in the future, with trials going straight to humans.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Was it "monkey theorem" or "monkey business" that the first man in the world to have the emergency use authorisation pfizer vaccine to be William Shakespeare?

Second person, though.

 

[Dragonheart]

It was simply illegal to do so, for new drugs to go straight to human trials. Although; that will all change no doubt in the future, with trials going straight to humans.

I understand the fundamental process had gone through the usual trials and this was a “tweaking” for this virus so didn’t need to do it in the same way to a brand new process would because of that.

Plus the tandem/continuous testing due to funding and red tape not being the usual delaying factor. Obviously those delays do allow for adverse outcomes that show a significant amount of time later but that isn’t actually part of the official process.

 

[Amity Island]

I understand the fundamental process had gone through the usual trials and this was a “tweaking” for this virus so didn’t need to do it in the same way to a brand new process would because of that.

Plus the tandem/continuous testing due to funding and red tape not being the usual delaying factor. Obviously those delays do allow for adverse outcomes that show a significant amount of time later but that isn’t actually part of the official process.

The fast tracking is explained in this video. With the regulators changing from safety "Watchdog" to "enablers" and fundamentally changing the protocol in the UK for new drugs and medicine trials. They "tore up the rule book."

 

[Bruce Stephens]

It was simply illegal to do so, for new drugs to go straight to human trials. Although; that will all change no doubt in the future, with trials going straight to humans.

Was it, or do regulators (and ethics committees) just generally require animal trials to strictly precede human tests?

 

[Amity Island]

Was it, or do regulators (and ethics committees) just generally require animal trials to strictly precede human tests?

I'd expect anyone submitting a new product would have to go through the MHRA, I would expect the MHRA to be backed by laws and regulations etc. From what I know, phase 2 was always a mandatory part of the clinical trials process. Clearly, the usual protocol would have been sidestepped for the covid vaccines, with the regulations re-written for emergency use, otherwise they'd of been tested on animals before they were tested on humans.

 

[Dragonheart]

I'd expect anyone submitting a new product would have to go through the MHRA, I would expect the MHRA to be backed by laws and regulations etc. From what I know, phase 2 was always a mandatory part of the clinical trials process. Clearly, the usual protocol would have been sidestepped for the covid vaccines, with the regulations re-written for emergency use, otherwise they'd of been tested on animals before they were tested on humans.

Covid-19 vaccines passed animal trials - Full Fact

All four vaccines approved for use in the UK have passed animal trials.

fullfact.org

Fitting vaccine research into one year – Were animals used?

In the space of a year, the research community has delivered four COVID-19 vaccines, approved by the EMA, the EU regulatory authority for medicines. It represents an unparalleled, collaborative achievement, achieved in record time without ever compromising on safety. The speed of development...

www.efpia.eu

As I read it due to earlier earlier work on the same techniques and the use of preclinical animal studies that had already occurred the next stages were done in tandem rather than sequentially for these vaccines. That is not the same as never having happened.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

The fast tracking is explained in this video.

The second of those videos sounds fine to me. The pandemic forced (and allowed) reconsideration of how to get drugs and devices quickly tested, and their plan is to try to make at least some of those more routine. What can possibly be wrong in making the whole process more effective? (I haven't watched the Brett Weinstein video because I don't think I care what he thinks.)