Covid-19 response

[Amity Island]

What can possibly be wrong in making the whole process more effective?

Their new catchphrase/philosophy is not to be "more effective" it is instead to be an "enabler". I'm all for making any business as you say "more effective." What I wouldn't want is to swap a guard dog for a lap dog or a bodyguard for a masseur. The drug companies have a very, very, long list of crimes and fines. The most recent one just last year. What if the police were to follow this "enabler" role?

Watchdog fines Pfizer and Flynn £70m for overcharging NHS for epilepsy drug

Penalties come after an in-depth investigation carried out by the Competition and Markets Authority

www.theguardian.com

Pfizer fined $2.3 billion for illegal marketing in off-label drug case

abcnews.go.com

In 2005 in the UK, the House of Commons’ health committee evaluated the influence of the drug industry on health policy, including the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA).3 The committee was concerned that industry funding could lead the agency to “lose sight of the need to protect and promote public health above all else as it seeks to win fee income from the companies.” But nearly two decades on, little has changed, and industry funding of drug regulators has become the international norm.’ - British Medical Journal, June 2022

 

[Bruce Stephens]

But nearly two decades on, little has changed, and industry funding of drug regulators has become the international norm.

I'm sure the industry would love it for MHRA to be entirely publicly funded.

Having payments for the evaluation of drugs and devices surely incentivises MHRA to encourage companies to submit drugs and devices for evaluation, but I'm not clear that it particularly incentivises them to approve them (any more than paying for a driving test alters the incentives for driving examiners).

Such entities have basically two roles: to approve things that we want to be approved and to disapprove the rest. One can certainly put more emphasis on one side or another, but improving either or both seem like good things to do, whether they decide to call themselves "enablers" or indicate such a change differently.

And obviously mistakes can happen in either part: approving something that turns out to be dangerous (or just ineffective), or failing to approve something which is effective. (And problems can happen after MHRA. Evusheld was approved by MHRA in a timely fashion but then subsequent bodies (like NICE) took so long evaluating it that by the time that completed it was useless. Possibly, anyway; as I understand it there's some question of whether it might still be somewhat effective even though the antibodies aren't neutralising.)

 

[nonethewiser]

@nonethewiser Straight up question, honestly, has your interest never been piqued by any of it?

Did you not think it odd the same people scaring the living daylights out of everyone were happy to have parties?

On the vaccines, I've never said to get one or not get one. It's a personal decision, based on personal circumstances and health etc. My point has always been around why natural immunity and naturally acquired immunity was ignored. It was always if you're not vaxxed (which later became if you haven't had 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th jab you are not fully vaccinated) you are not protected which is clearly not true. If you are not protected by being exposed to an inactivated or live virus, how on earth will a vaccine work?

If I've already got a car and someone offers me another one and I decline (as I am more than happy with the one I have), this does not in any way mean I am "anti-car." I just don't need two cars.

Past caring about debating subject with likes of yourself, just do your own thing my friend.

 

[Amity Island]

Past caring about debating subject with likes of yourself, just do your own thing my friend.

I wasn't asking you to debate anything with me, just asked you a straight up question about if you had anything to say about the way the pandemic was handled.

Some seem fine with it all, others think we should just forget and move on, but for me, it was the greatest event in my lifetime and as such, it is important to me and the sort of event that will go down in history and be taught to generations to come. Will you tell them that history that affected the world is an obsession?

 

[Amity Island]

As part of the covid response they introduced covid passports for us (2 jabs) for nightclubs whilst giving an exemption (no jabs) for MP's attending the crowded House of Commons.

MPs have warned ministers that it would be “outrageous” to make Covid vaccine passports a requirement for MPs to attend the House of Commons....

Speaker rejects Covid passports for MPs despite crowded Commons

MPs should not have to produce Covid vaccine passports to attend the House of Commons, the Speaker has said, insisting Parliament will set its own…

www.heraldscotland.com

Covid-19: Vaccine passports to start in England this month

The scheme for nightclubs and other venues from the end of September aims to ensure they stay open.

www.bbc.com

 

[Dragonheart]

Why aren’t you outraged at the lack of promised fresh air provisions in public buildings like schools and hospitals? (Though the Houses of Parliament had theirs upgraded!). This measure alone mnimises a lot of risk for a lot of airborne diseases not just covid.

Why aren’t you outraged when already vulnerable people attend hospitals there are zero precautions in place for them anymore? More than 500 a week a still dying of/with covid many of whom catch it in hospital.

Why are you outraged there isn’t more being out into understanding the long term effects of the virus and multiple exposures and the huge medical and economic burden that potentially looms as a result?

These are issues for the future, not just political arguments of the past. Just about everyone agrees the response wasn’t perfect or even close to it for a wide variety of reasons. We need to do better going forward. Sadly I doubt we will.

 

[Amity Island]

Why aren’t you outraged at the lack of promised fresh air provisions in public buildings like schools and hospitals? (Though the Houses of Parliament had theirs upgraded!). This measure alone mnimises a lot of risk for a lot of airborne diseases not just covid.

Why aren’t you outraged when already vulnerable people attend hospitals there are zero precautions in place for them anymore? More than 500 a week a still dying of/with covid many of whom catch it in hospital.

Why are you outraged there isn’t more being out into understanding the long term effects of the virus and multiple exposures and the huge medical and economic burden that potentially looms as a result?

These are issues for the future, not just political arguments of the past. Just about everyone agrees the response wasn’t perfect or even close to it for a wide variety of reasons. We need to do better going forward. Sadly I doubt we will.

Some great points there. I'll add them to my list too! lol.

Regarding the response, it wasn't that it was imperfect that rasied eyebrows, it was the fact that what was recommended wasn't followed by those offering the advice. I mean, we were brow beaten day after day with how dangerous and deadly it was and yet, those offering the advice showed not a care in the world. They told us to wear masks (based on no evidence) and yet often failed to wear them themselves.

This is what the chief whip said about the covid passports.

“It’d be outrageous if the executive were to attempt to prevent any Member of Parliament attending this House to represent our constituents without first undergoing a medical procedure.”

@HSSS Thanks for the info on the ventialtion strategies, it's the CIBSE that have produced a specific guide for engineers to follow when advising new systems in non-domestic settings, but I think this is not mandatory.

Emerging from Lockdown

Emerging from Lockdown

www.cibse.org

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Why aren’t you outraged at the lack of promised fresh air provisions in public buildings like schools and hospitals?

Also the last Davos which was famously full of HVAC machines and with mandatory testing.

 

[nonethewiser]

Will you tell them that history that affected the world is an obsession?

Won't be around to tell future generations as wont be around, we all die at some point no one lives forever.

Thing is mate, worrying about what's been & things that should have been done/ not done by those in power isn't going to change anything, maybe your a born worrier where as I'm not, maybe that's the difference.

 

[Amity Island]

Won't be around to tell future generations as wont be around, we all die at some point no one lives forever.

Thing is mate, worrying about what's been & things that should have been done/ not done by those in power isn't going to change anything, maybe your a born worrier where as I'm not, maybe that's the difference.

Fair enough, but it's not worry that has kept my interest in it, it's a niggling feeling that something ain't right with it all.

 

[Satan’s little helper]

Some seem fine with it all, others think we should just forget and move on, but for me, it was the greatest event in my lifetime and as such, it is important to me and the sort of event that will go down in history and be taught to generations to come. Will you tell them that history that affected the world is an obsession?

Hello,

Well I won’t be sitting about like a shellshocked WW1 veteran. I have seen some sadness. But I have also seen some triumph too.

“What was the lockdown like grandpa?” As the fictional child plays with an antique toy of a red bus with no wheels and a faded NHS logo on the side.

Put your VR goggles on son. You’re about to learn some history.

 

[bulkbiker]

Fair enough, but it's not worry that has kept my interest in it, it's a niggling feeling that something ain't right with it all.

You might find this interesting too

Doctors must take back control – HART

Somewhere in England in early 2023, a large group of medics gathered together for an annual conference. No need for the details, lest the GMC attack dogs start frothing at the mouth at the idea of yet another potential witch hunt.

www.hartgroup.org

 

[Amity Island]

You might find this interesting too

Doctors must take back control – HART

Somewhere in England in early 2023, a large group of medics gathered together for an annual conference. No need for the details, lest the GMC attack dogs start frothing at the mouth at the idea of yet another potential witch hunt.

www.hartgroup.org

"That culture has been totally replaced by top-down protocols and bureaucratic policy driven healthcare. An eminent retired surgeon in the room was stunned following the revelations and was moved to remind everyone that they have a duty to raise concerns. He was appalled to hear that the GMC had suspended colleagues simply for questioning the prevailing covid narrative."

@bulkbiker this sums up one of the hundreds of examples I felt showed something ain't right with it all. I've mentioned some of these before about many of the worlds most eminient scientists, doctors and experts being deplatformed, wiped from search engines, ridiculed, ignored, etc who had concerns about the way the pandemic was being dealt with.

During a pandemic, isn't this the time you'd seek opinion and advice from the worlds experts, not ignore and discredit them?

 

[Amity Island]

More ludicrous claims made by officials during pandemic.


“Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don’t get sick, and that it’s not just in the clinical trials, but it’s also in real-world data,” she claimed.


This claim prompted vaccine mandates in the US.

Dr. Walensky's Dishonorable Acts ⋆ Brownstone Institute

Even as the pandemic fades, the CDC and the administration have now realized they hold immense power over Americans’ daily lives.

brownstone.org

Face coverings are "the most powerful public health tool" the nation has against the coronavirus and might even provide better protection against it than a vaccine, the head of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention told lawmakers Wednesday.


"We have clear scientific evidence they work, and they are our best defense," CDC Director Dr. Robert Redfield said. "I might even go so far as to say that this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against Covid than when I take a Covid vaccine."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1456645731691925518

CDC director says face masks may provide more protection than coronavirus vaccine

"If I don't get an immune response, the vaccine's not going to protect me. This face mask will," CDC Director Robert Redfield told lawmakers Wednesday.

www.google.com

 

[Amity Island]

EcoHealth Alliance, who were working with Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) to collect and study bat viruses before the pandemic, have been allowed to restart experiments after a three-year suspension, but with massive restrictions.

The National Institutes of Health (NIH) has forbidden the team from carrying out any research in China and banned the collection of bat or human samples.

It has also prohibited scientists from culturing chimeric viruses, carrying out infection experiments or doing anything that has the potential to enhance the virulence or transmission of a virus.

Virus scientists banned from China over Covid leak fears

Team at controversial lab allowed to restart experiments under much tighter guidelines and only at highest biosafety level

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Amity Island]

BMJ article here may give some indication why the absolute risk reduction wasn't also provided to the public as part of the informed consent.

"Relative risk rather than absolute risk reduction should be preferred to sensitise the public to preventive actions."

Relative risk rather than absolute risk reduction should be preferred to sensitise the public to preventive actions | Gut

See column 1 for the ARR absolute risk reductions, Pfizer being 0.84% ARR.

BNT162b2	[3]	0.84	95.0	119
(Pfizer-BioNtech)
mRNA1273	[4]	1.24	94.1	81
(Moderna-NIH)
ChAdOx1nCoV19	[5]	1.11	72.8	90
(Astra Zeneca – Oxford)
Ad26CoV2S	[6]	1.19	66.9	84
(Johnson & Johnson)
GamCovidVac	[7]	0.93	91.0	86
(Gamaleya)
NVX-CoV2373	[8]	1.23	89.7	82
(Novavax)
CORONAVAC	[9]	0.76	83.5	131
(Sinovac)
WIBP-CorV	[10]	0.54	72.8	185
(Wuhan – Sinopharm)
BBIBP-CorV	[10]	0.58	78.1	172
(Beijing – Sinopharm)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9115787/

 

[Dragonheart]

More ludicrous claims made by officials during pandemic.


“Our data from the CDC today suggests that vaccinated people do not carry the virus, don’t get sick, and that it’s not just in the clinical trials, but it’s also in real-world data,” she claimed.


This claim prompted vaccine mandates in the US.

Dr. Walensky's Dishonorable Acts ⋆ Brownstone Institute

Even as the pandemic fades, the CDC and the administration have now realized they hold immense power over Americans’ daily lives.

brownstone.org

Face coverings are "the most powerful public health tool" the nation has against the coronavirus and might even provide better protection against it than a vaccine, the head of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention told lawmakers Wednesday.


"We have clear scientific evidence they work, and they are our best defense," CDC Director Dr. Robert Redfield said. "I might even go so far as to say that this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against Covid than when I take a Covid vaccine."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1456645731691925518

CDC director says face masks may provide more protection than coronavirus vaccine

"If I don't get an immune response, the vaccine's not going to protect me. This face mask will," CDC Director Robert Redfield told lawmakers Wednesday.

www.google.com

Do you have any evidence that masks (the correct mask, worn properly, all the time) doesn’t work? I’ve never seen one. I’ve certainly seen plenty that says they do hugely reduce the risks (not absolute and 100% but really high reductions). I don’t have them to hand right now.

Or are failures based on the fact people wore rubbish masks below their noses occasionally and many avoided it as much as legally possible due to politicised rather than scientific beliefs?

So was it people that failed or masks?

 

[Amity Island]

Do you have any evidence that masks (the correct mask, worn properly, all the time) doesn’t work? I’ve never seen one. I’ve certainly seen plenty that says they do hugely reduce the risks (not absolute and 100% but really high reductions). I don’t have them to hand right now.

Or are failures based on the fact people wore rubbish masks below their noses occasionally and many avoided it as much as legally possible due to politicised rather than scientific beliefs?

So was it people that failed or masks?

"I might even go so far as to say that this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against Covid than when I take a Covid vaccine."

Can't be true, unless he is refering to the ARR absolute effectiveness of the vaccines being around 1% protection.

 

[Dragonheart]

"I might even go so far as to say that this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against Covid than when I take a Covid vaccine."

Can't be true, unless he is refering to the ARR absolute effectiveness of the vaccines being around 1% protection.

I’m asking about the masking, not one man’s quote. And the point he was making is a mask can work on everyone (worn appropriately) whereas a vaccine doesn’t illicit a response in everyone. Context of a quote is relevant

 

[Amity Island]

I’m asking about the masking, not one man’s quote. And the point he was making is a mask can work on everyone (worn appropriately) whereas a vaccine doesn’t illicit a response in everyone. Context of a quote is relevant

The point he was making as head of CDC is that masks protect the wearer.

This is clearly not the case.

I do however take your point about at public level, that wearing them and properly would be a pre-requisite of offering any kind of protection to others.