Covid-19 response

[Bruce Stephens]

They sure do.. one for which we have zero long term safety data and have no idea what is in it or where it goes and what it does.

As I understand it the technology has been around for a few decades. You're right that there's limited long term safety data (because they haven't been used in anything like the scale of the C19 vaccines). I'm not sure what you mean by not knowing what's in it: the ingredients are freely published, and (obviously) FDC, EMA, MHRA, were informed of the ingredients and monitor the production in the way they do for other medications. And obviously we know where it goes and what it does (as well as can be determined for anything, anyway: there are limits on what can be determined by experimentation).

Remember mRNA and lipids are a normal part of our bodies and they have effective ways of recycling them; I'm less confident of PEG and DMG, but the quantities are so tiny I doubt there's much concern. (In any case, the call seems to be for some way to remove mRNA from bodies, not PEG or DMG. And removing mRNA would be an extremely bad idea, in case it's not obvious, so don't do that.)

For what little it's worth I'd guess nothing remains in the body from these vaccines after a few months (and virtually nothing after a few weeks) except for the intended changes to the immune system. In other words, they act just like other vaccine technologies. Only rather more effectively, it turns out.

I don't see a concern that they'll be very widely used, just because they seem rather expensive to produce. I can believe they'll be used for a few vaccines (there's talk of a near universal flu vaccine which one might get once, which would then make subsequence flu vaccines more effective). Otherwise the excitement seems to be about cancer.

 

[Amity Island]

You are aware that protection from natural and vaccines is not identical? It seems not.

Large scale studies (in Israel) proved that natural aquired immunity provided 100 protection against the re infection. Natural infection provides all round protection whereas the mrna vaccines provide only limited reduced scope of protection. As Fauci said, natural acquired immunity from natural infection is the best protection and for many of us, is what we got before the vaccines arrived.

 

[Amity Island]

I’m pro vaccine.

Is this regardless of circumstances? For any medication?

What if you were told in the middle of a pandemic you had 99% protection without medication and that the medication provides only 1% absolute protection? What if studies showed 100% protection against re infection once exposed to it as many of us had? What if there was a 20% chance of never catching the virus?

Would people take a statin for something they might never need? Would they take a statin if it provided only 1% effectiveness (absolute). Would they then offer it for those aged 6 months and over.

 

[Dragonheart]

Is this regardless of circumstances? For any medication?

What if you were told in the middle of a pandemic you had 99% protection without medication and that the medication provides only 1% absolute protection? What if studies showed 100% protection against re infection once exposed to it as many of us had? What if there was a 20% chance of never catching the virus?

Would people take a statin for something they might never need? Would they take a statin if it provided only 1% effectiveness (absolute). Would they then offer it for those aged 6 months and over.

Of course there are exceptions. Don’t be plain silly.

You are making those figures up (or links please) and I presume you believe they apply to the pandemic?

Don’t get me started on statins. Seriously over promises and over prescribed.

Large scale studies (in Israel) proved that natural aquired immunity provided 100 protection

100% protection? I’d like to see those studies. Links please.

 

[Dragonheart]

I’m losing interest in debating this with you as it’s obvious no matter what is said you’ll only hear what you want to hear. The problem is the misinformation is more contagious than any virus. Arguing extremes of any position is rarely realism either. No approach is perfect, no medication is perfect.

 

[bulkbiker]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1652618475024830464

Hmmm

 

[Satan’s little helper]

Kevin Bass. I tripped over him a couple of years ago?

Found it. Complicated person.

Kevin Bass | Substack

Med student and scientist. I write about science, nutrition, history, and against my better judgment, politics.

thedietwars.com

 

[bulkbiker]

Kevin Bass. I tripped over him a couple of years ago?

Found it. Complicated person.

Kevin Bass | Substack

Med student and scientist. I write about science, nutrition, history, and against my better judgment, politics.

thedietwars.com

He's an interesting character.. I have been blocked and unblocked on twitter by him but .... this isn't a paper by him just a few experts in their field..

 

[Eddy Edson]

Kevin Bass. I tripped over him a couple of years ago?

Found it. Complicated person.

Kevin Bass | Substack

Med student and scientist. I write about science, nutrition, history, and against my better judgment, politics.

thedietwars.com

Kevin Bass went full grifter a little while ago. Pity - but I guess he was broke and IIRC he has a couple of young kids ...

 

[bulkbiker]

Kevin Bass went full grifter a little while ago. Pity - but I guess he was broke and IIRC he has a couple of young kids ...

And he's nothing to do with the paper he links to so......

 

[Amity Island]

100% protection? I’d like to see those studies. Links please.

I've been following this for 3 years (as @nonethewiser will attest), I've all the studies, the data, the links, the quotes, the people, the organisations, all the claims. Even quirky things like the fact that vaccines were not tested on animals prior to being tested on humans. I've posted all of this over past 3 years on this forum. Everything I state, is all backed up, I wouldn't say it otherwise.

Several studies (in Qatar, England, Israel, and the US) have found infection rates at equally low levels among people who are fully vaccinated and those who have previously had covid-19. Cleveland Clinic surveyed its more than 50 000 employees to compare four groups based on history of SARS-CoV-2 infection and vaccination status. Not one of over 1300 unvaccinated employees who had been previously infected tested positive during the five months of the study. Researchers concluded that that cohort “are unlikely to benefit from covid-19 vaccination.” In Israel, researchers accessed a database of the entire population to compare the efficacy of vaccination with previous infection and found nearly identical numbers. “Our results question the need to vaccinate previously infected individuals,” they concluded.

Remember the official story of it coming from a bats at a market in Wuhan? well they didn't sell them nor do they live near Wuhan.

"In 2002, horseshoe bats were sold in China’s wet markets and are thought to have jumped to humans from there. By 2019, horseshoe bats were no longer sold in the wet markets. Nor do they live in the wild near Wuhan. As Chinese researcher Huabin Zhao, Department of Ecology, Hubei Key Laboratory of Cell Homeostasis, College of Life Sciences, Wuhan University. Pointed out in Science, “COVID-19 was linked to horseshoe bats, which do not hibernate in cities in China.” They are used in biomedical research, however, and Wuhan, the city in which COVID-19 originated, has two such labs."

Here's one of claims made during the pandemic.

"The coronavirus will no longer be circulating in Britain by midsummer, according to the government's departing vaccine taskforce chief, Clive Dix." 8th May 2021

The UK will have a population protected from COVID by midsummer, the departing chief of the UK's vaccine taskforce says.

Later, same chap who was from the Vaccine Task Force is in Telegraph said vaccines were not designed to prevent tranmission.

"The battle over Covid transmission was lost some time ago. I am afraid that the vaccines will not stop the spread of the virus in the short or medium term"

As I said before. They changed the definition of pandemic. They changed the definition of immunity. They changed the definition of vaccine. They changed the definition of fully vaccinated. They changed the definition of herd immunity.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Even quirky things like the fact that vaccines were not tested on animals prior to being tested on humans.

That's a claim that's sometimes made. (Another contradictory one is that the animal trials were halted early after all the animals died.) I don't think either is quite true, though. I think there was some testing in parallel with human trials, on the basis that the underlying technology had been widely tested on animals without significant safety concerns.

Fact Check-COVID-19 vaccines did not skip animal trials because of animal deaths

Posts claiming that COVID-19 vaccine producers skipped animal trials due to the animals in those trials dying are false. Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson, which have been granted emergency authorization use by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in the United...

www.reuters.com

 

[Amity Island]

I’m losing interest in debating this with you as it’s obvious no matter what is said you’ll only hear what you want to hear. The problem is the misinformation is more contagious than any virus. Arguing extremes of any position is rarely realism either. No approach is perfect, no medication is perfect.

I'm not trying to go against or argue with what you are saying, it's not personal. All I am trying to say is, there are hundreds of reasons I felt that there was something off with the entire narrative. Some believed it, many didn't.

 

[Amity Island]

That's a claim that's sometimes made. (Another contradictory one is that the animal trials were halted early after all the animals died.) I don't think either is quite true, though. I think there was some testing in parallel with human trials, on the basis that the underlying technology had been widely tested on animals without significant safety concerns.

Fact Check-COVID-19 vaccines did not skip animal trials because of animal deaths

Posts claiming that COVID-19 vaccine producers skipped animal trials due to the animals in those trials dying are false. Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson, which have been granted emergency authorization use by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in the United...

www.reuters.com

Where is the evidence they tested the vaccines on animals prior to testing them on humans?

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Where is the evidence they tested the vaccines on animals prior to testing them on humans?

Some links are given in the page I linked to for tests in mice and non-human primates.

Pfizer and BioNTech Announce Data from Preclinical Studies of mRNA-based Vaccine Candidate Against COVID-19 | Pfizer

Immunization of non-human primates (rhesus macaques) with BNT162b2, a nucleoside-modified messenger RNA (modRNA) candidate that expresses the SARS-CoV-2 spike glycoprotein, resulted in strong anti-viral effects against an infectious SARS-CoV-2 challenge BNT162b2 immunization prevented lung...

www.pfizer.com

BNT162b vaccines protect rhesus macaques from SARS-CoV-2 - Nature

BNT162b1 and BNT162b2 are two candidate mRNA vaccines against COVID-19 that elicit high virus-entry inhibition titres in mice, elicit high virus-neutralizing titres in rhesus macaques and protect macaques from SARS-CoV-2 challenge.

www.nature.com

Moderna COVID-19 vaccine appears to clear safety hurdle in mouse study

A series of studies in mice of Moderna Inc's COVID-19 lent some assurance that it may not increase the risk of more severe disease, and that one dose may provide protection against the novel coronavirus, according to preliminary data released on Friday.

www.reuters.com

 

[Amity Island]

Some links are given in the page I linked to for tests in mice and non-human primates.

Pfizer and BioNTech Announce Data from Preclinical Studies of mRNA-based Vaccine Candidate Against COVID-19 | Pfizer

Immunization of non-human primates (rhesus macaques) with BNT162b2, a nucleoside-modified messenger RNA (modRNA) candidate that expresses the SARS-CoV-2 spike glycoprotein, resulted in strong anti-viral effects against an infectious SARS-CoV-2 challenge BNT162b2 immunization prevented lung...

www.pfizer.com

BNT162b vaccines protect rhesus macaques from SARS-CoV-2 - Nature

BNT162b1 and BNT162b2 are two candidate mRNA vaccines against COVID-19 that elicit high virus-entry inhibition titres in mice, elicit high virus-neutralizing titres in rhesus macaques and protect macaques from SARS-CoV-2 challenge.

www.nature.com

Moderna COVID-19 vaccine appears to clear safety hurdle in mouse study

A series of studies in mice of Moderna Inc's COVID-19 lent some assurance that it may not increase the risk of more severe disease, and that one dose may provide protection against the novel coronavirus, according to preliminary data released on Friday.

www.reuters.com

Prior to testing on humans?

 

[Satan’s little helper]

I've been following this for 3 years (as @nonethewiser will attest), I've all the studies, the data, the links, the quotes, the people, the organisations, all the claims. Even quirky things like the fact that vaccines were not tested on animals prior to being tested on humans. I've posted all of this over past 3 years on this forum. Everything I state, is all backed up, I wouldn't say it otherwise.

Several studies (in Qatar, England, Israel, and the US) have found infection rates at equally low levels among people who are fully vaccinated and those who have previously had covid-19. Cleveland Clinic surveyed its more than 50 000 employees to compare four groups based on history of SARS-CoV-2 infection and vaccination status. Not one of over 1300 unvaccinated employees who had been previously infected tested positive during the five months of the study. Researchers concluded that that cohort “are unlikely to benefit from covid-19 vaccination.” In Israel, researchers accessed a database of the entire population to compare the efficacy of vaccination with previous infection and found nearly identical numbers. “Our results question the need to vaccinate previously infected individuals,” they concluded.

Remember the official story of it coming from a bats at a market in Wuhan? well they didn't sell them nor do they live near Wuhan.

"In 2002, horseshoe bats were sold in China’s wet markets and are thought to have jumped to humans from there. By 2019, horseshoe bats were no longer sold in the wet markets. Nor do they live in the wild near Wuhan. As Chinese researcher Huabin Zhao, Department of Ecology, Hubei Key Laboratory of Cell Homeostasis, College of Life Sciences, Wuhan University. Pointed out in Science, “COVID-19 was linked to horseshoe bats, which do not hibernate in cities in China.” They are used in biomedical research, however, and Wuhan, the city in which COVID-19 originated, has two such labs."

Here's one of claims made during the pandemic.

"The coronavirus will no longer be circulating in Britain by midsummer, according to the government's departing vaccine taskforce chief, Clive Dix." 8th May 2021

The UK will have a population protected from COVID by midsummer, the departing chief of the UK's vaccine taskforce says.

Later, same chap who was from the Vaccine Task Force is in Telegraph said vaccines were not designed to prevent tranmission.

"The battle over Covid transmission was lost some time ago. I am afraid that the vaccines will not stop the spread of the virus in the short or medium term"

As I said before. They changed the definition of pandemic. They changed the definition of immunity. They changed the definition of vaccine. They changed the definition of fully vaccinated. They changed the definition of herd immunity.

Hello,

Read the news on the wet market source at the time was “bat to pangolin. Then transferred to human.”

Bearing in mind these ant eater looking mongoose relatives are butchered with a fair bit of blood letting.
That led me to the logic regarding the probable cause of HIV cross species transference from hunted monkeys.?

By all accounts pangolins don’t bite. Having said that. They are a little sharp around the edges.

 

[Dragonheart]

I'm not trying to go against or argue with what you are saying, it's not personal. All I am trying to say is, there are hundreds of reasons I felt that there was something off with the entire narrative. Some believed it, many didn't.

I realise it’s not aimed at me personally. But the crazier end of disbelief and the onward transmission of conspiracy had a knock on effect on us all. So much of what you say is repeated and half thought out theories, twisted truths and cherry picked data I don’t feel it’s worth more of my time (or sanity) trying to point out the factual errors or misconceptions.

Nor is it black and white where a person believes everything was a lie/mistake or none of it. Yes there were errors and quite possibly presentations of things that weren’t accurate, for a whole host of reasons and not all of them nefarious.

Yes there should be questions asked about a lot of what happened, but some of the theories out there are frankly ridiculous and the genuine concerns get lost in the noise of that.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I realise it’s not aimed at me personally. But the crazier end of disbelief and the onward transmission of conspiracy had a knock on effect on us all. So much of what you say is repeated and half thought out theories, twisted truths and cherry picked data I don’t feel it’s worth more of my time (or sanity) trying to point out the factual errors or misconceptions.

Nor is it black and white where a person believes everything was a lie/mistake or none of it. Yes there were errors and quite possibly presentations of things that weren’t accurate, for a whole host of reasons and not all of them nefarious.

Yes there should be questions asked about a lot of what happened, but some of the theories out there are frankly ridiculous and the genuine concerns get lost in the noise of that.

Is this nonsense still running?
I found arguing sensibly is futile.
"Ignore" doesn't feed it though.

 

[Amity Island]

I realise it’s not aimed at me personally. But the crazier end of disbelief and the onward transmission of conspiracy had a knock on effect on us all. So much of what you say is repeated and half thought out theories, twisted truths and cherry picked data I don’t feel it’s worth more of my time (or sanity) trying to point out the factual errors or misconceptions.

Nor is it black and white where a person believes everything was a lie/mistake or none of it. Yes there were errors and quite possibly presentations of things that weren’t accurate, for a whole host of reasons and not all of them nefarious.

Yes there should be questions asked about a lot of what happened, but some of the theories out there are frankly ridiculous and the genuine concerns get lost in the noise of that.

Hi,

I appreciate you taking the time to discuss it, many won't even consider it.

I've stayed away from any conspiracy theories or any silly unfounded comments.

I've simply stuck with the official data, official scientific studies, official statements.

I've always provided official sources on the forum.

If it was just one mistake or slip up, I'd of just put it all down to human error and moved on, but I know what was said. Right from beginning, locking well people in, instead of those that were actually sick at home just to slow the curve (a curve which wasn't there until after lockdowns and measures started), telling people to stay at home (which would only lead to more suffering and illness if they couldn't go to a hospital for treatment), locking down after! they reclassified the virus as a non high consequence disease. Then there was the pandemic starting in same location as the bbc pandemic documentary a few years before, then the first man in the whole world to get vaccinated called William Shakespeare. Ignoring natural immunity throughout and not publicizing these studies that showed how amazingly effective it is. Mandating masks without evidence they were effective if worn by general public.

Alternatively, they could of just asked those sick to stay at home, simple and straightforward.

Worst of all, we have members on the forum calling all this nonsense or conspiracy theory. I can assure you all this really happened.