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Avoiding post prandial spikes (type 1)

Yes, the not sitting down works for me too. I usually do a bit of tidying in the house, collecting up things and returning them to their places upstairs/downstairs and so on. It doesn’t necessarily have to be vigorous exercise. Things like watering pots on the patio or whatever or picking the washing in work too.
 
And to reinforce @SB2015's comments, this morning I was expecting a carpenter at 8am and I needed to get b'fast out of the way, plus clear up the space he should be working in, plus get the bins out, plus .... so I was busy with little jobs straight after eating! Suddenly my BG was tumbling. Everything had to stop, to let the fast carbs catch up - despite a standard b'fast with good carb count and normal bolus.

My abnormal surge of activity first thing "kyboshed" me. The annoying thing for me is that I know this can happen, but didn't factor that into my plan for this morning. Oh, and the carpenter didn't turn up!!
 
In diabetes terms, regularly spiking up well into the teens after meals puts quite a lot of strain on the micro-vascular system over time, and increases the proportion of the day when you have higher than ideal BGs, which again can cause damage to blood vessels and nerves and, in the long term, increase your chances of developing long term diabetes complications. It's a sobering thought that only 20% of the costs of treating diabetes are spent on the regular check-ups and all the medications that we need. The other 80% is spent on the extra resources needed when people start to develop those nasties (eye problems, nerve problems, kidney problems etc etc). Of course it's not just money, there is also a huge personal cost involved.

Generally you can look at your HbA1c to keep a longer-term view of whether you are on track to avoid complications, but increasingly it is recognised that an HbA1c of the same value is very different when it is due to someone wildly spiking after meals and crashing down into multiple hypos, versus someone who is able to have a much lower glucose variability and potter along more gently.
This is what I'm currently worried about. Last checkup my HbA1c was 6.8, the nurse saif that was very good. I thought it was supposed to be 6.5(or below). Since I got the Libre, i can see the spikes and the plunges. I know what causes the spikes (anything that tastes nice!), but the plunges. I'd like to get more level, but am finding it difficult. I use Humulin I and Humalog twice a day. When I was diagnosed the advice was 'eat starchy carbs at every meal, and keep the fat low, no snacking on cheese!' I feel great on this, I love carbs, but in the long term it doesn't seem like a good idea. I particularly worry about my eyesight - I have cataracts developing. Still not at the point of needing surgery thank goodness. The plunges are a problem if I'm at work, I'm on my feet and sometimes I feel s if I;m mainlining dextrose, which can't be good.
 
This is what I'm currently worried about. Last checkup my HbA1c was 6.8, the nurse saif that was very good. I thought it was supposed to be 6.5(or below). Since I got the Libre, i can see the spikes and the plunges. I know what causes the spikes (anything that tastes nice!), but the plunges. I'd like to get more level, but am finding it difficult. I use Humulin I and Humalog twice a day. When I was diagnosed the advice was 'eat starchy carbs at every meal, and keep the fat low, no snacking on cheese!' I feel great on this, I love carbs, but in the long term it doesn't seem like a good idea. I particularly worry about my eyesight - I have cataracts developing. Still not at the point of needing surgery thank goodness. The plunges are a problem if I'm at work, I'm on my feet and sometimes I feel s if I;m mainlining dextrose, which can't be good.
Can you post a photo of a typical day's Libre graph showing the spikes and plunges?

If you are needing glucose tablets between meals then you are having too much insulin. It can be a real temptation to increase mealtime doses to reduce spikes when what is often needed is to change the timing of the insulin rather than increasing it. The key way to tell is if your levels return to target by the next meal when your Humalog is finished working, then your insulin dose was correct and you reduce any spike by injecting that dose a bit earlier before eating. This is called the prebolus timing and is crucial to reducing spikes. Most nurses advise injecting 10-20 mins before your meal, but to prevent spikes you often need to increase that, especially at breakfast time when the liver is releasing a strong flow of glucose into your blood stream before you even think about eating breakfast. I found that I needed to inject and then wait over an hour before eating breakfast to prevent large spikes from breakfast with Novo(not so)Rapid. I now have one of the fastest insulins Fiasp, but still need to inject and wait 45 mins on a morning before eating breakfast. Less if my BG is in the 4s on waking.

If your levels spike high and then come crashing back down into a hypo later, then you need to increase the prebolus timing but decrease the dose.

If you go high after a meal and stay high until the next meal, then you probably need to adjust the prebolus timing and also need more insulin.

The above all depends on you having your basal insulin dose, Humulin i, optimised to keep your levels steady in the absence of food and Humalog.

If you can post a picture of a typical day on your Libre showing the typical peaks and troughs you see we might be able to advise you better. It really helps to notate on the Libre when you inject and when you eat, so that you can see the current prebolus timings.

When you are adjusting the timing, it is important to start with what you do now, which might be say 10 mins and add 5 mins more every few days until you start to see the spike coming down to a more acceptable level. If you just try 45 mins or whatever when you currently just inject 10 mins before, then you might easily end up hypo. Just because 45 mins works for me with my insulin and my breakfast choice and my digestion/metabolism, absolutely doesn't mean it will work for you, so it is important to increase it gradually until you find the sweet spot timing for your body/insulin/food.

Also important to know that breakfast is usually the meal that needs the longest prebolus time, and lunch and evening meal may need a lot less, so don't assume that once you figure it out for breakfast, it is the same at other times of the day. It can also vary with BG level, so if you BG is low before your meal, you will likely need less prebolus time than if you are above target (over 7) and if I am above 10 I could be waiting hours for my levels to come down before I eat breakfast, but that tends to need a slightly different approach.

Hopefully that all makes sense. It sounds complicated but in practice Libre makes it a lot easier and once you start increasing the prebolus timing you should start to see the height of the peaks reduce, just don't be too heavy handed and try to do it too quickly. Slow steady increases in the timing of a few minutes every few days should start to show results. You don't want to end up having a horrible hypo on the way to work because you prebolused too far ahead.
 
I agree about timing. Another thing I find helps is to reduce the glycemic load by spreading the carbs and exercising. When I was still working I used to have the majority of my lunch at my desk, then go for a brisk brief walk and save an apple for mid afternoon.
 
Can you post a photo of a typical day's Libre graph showing the spikes and plunges?

If you are needing glucose tablets between meals then you are having too much insulin. It can be a real temptation to increase mealtime doses to reduce spikes when what is often needed is to change the timing of the insulin rather than increasing it. The key way to tell is if your levels return to target by the next meal when your Humalog is finished working, then your insulin dose was correct and you reduce any spike by injecting that dose a bit earlier before eating. This is called the prebolus timing and is crucial to reducing spikes. Most nurses advise injecting 10-20 mins before your meal, but to prevent spikes you often need to increase that, especially at breakfast time when the liver is releasing a strong flow of glucose into your blood stream before you even think about eating breakfast. I found that I needed to inject and then wait over an hour before eating breakfast to prevent large spikes from breakfast with Novo(not so)Rapid. I now have one of the fastest insulins Fiasp, but still need to inject and wait 45 mins on a morning before eating breakfast. Less if my BG is in the 4s on waking.

If your levels spike high and then come crashing back down into a hypo later, then you need to increase the prebolus timing but decrease the dose.

If you go high after a meal and stay high until the next meal, then you probably need to adjust the prebolus timing and also need more insulin.

The above all depends on you having your basal insulin dose, Humulin i, optimised to keep your levels steady in the absence of food and Humalog.

If you can post a picture of a typical day on your Libre showing the typical peaks and troughs you see we might be able to advise you better. It really helps to notate on the Libre when you inject and when you eat, so that you can see the current prebolus timings.

When you are adjusting the timing, it is important to start with what you do now, which might be say 10 mins and add 5 mins more every few days until you start to see the spike coming down to a more acceptable level. If you just try 45 mins or whatever when you currently just inject 10 mins before, then you might easily end up hypo. Just because 45 mins works for me with my insulin and my breakfast choice and my digestion/metabolism, absolutely doesn't mean it will work for you, so it is important to increase it gradually until you find the sweet spot timing for your body/insulin/food.

Also important to know that breakfast is usually the meal that needs the longest prebolus time, and lunch and evening meal may need a lot less, so don't assume that once you figure it out for breakfast, it is the same at other times of the day. It can also vary with BG level, so if you BG is low before your meal, you will likely need less prebolus time than if you are above target (over 7) and if I am above 10 I could be waiting hours for my levels to come down before I eat breakfast, but that tends to need a slightly different approach.

Hopefully that all makes sense. It sounds complicated but in practice Libre makes it a lot easier and once you start increasing the prebolus timing you should start to see the height of the peaks reduce, just don't be too heavy handed and try to do it too quickly. Slow steady increases in the timing of a few minutes every few days should start to show results. You don't want to end up having a horrible hypo on the way to work because you prebolused too far ahead.
Thanks for the reply. Just at the moment there doesn't seem to be a typical day. I would post a picture if I knew how to do that. One other thing that I didn't mention, the terms basal and bolus were never explained i was told that as I was on twice daily insulin I didn't need to know about them.
 
Thanks for the reply. Just at the moment there doesn't seem to be a typical day. I would post a picture if I knew how to do that. One other thing that I didn't mention, the terms basal and bolus were never explained i was told that as I was on twice daily insulin I didn't need to know about them.
When you say you are on "twice daily insulin" that is usually a mixed insulin but you have a long acting (basal) insulin, Humulin i which is usually injected morning and evening and a meal time (bolus) insulin Humalog that presumably you inject before each meal, usually you adjust this dose according to how many carbs you are going to eat...... or perhaps you are on fixed doses of Humalog? The timing of the Humalog before the meal is usually the key to reducing spikes.
 
When you say you are on "twice daily insulin" that is usually a mixed insulin but you have a long acting (basal) insulin, Humulin i which is usually injected morning and evening and a meal time (bolus) insulin Humalog that presumably you inject before each meal, usually you adjust this dose according to how many carbs you are going to eat...... or perhaps you are on fixed doses of Humalog? The timing of the Humalog before the meal is usually the key to reducing spikes.
This is going to take some explaining. I had worked out which was basal and which was bolus, but initially I was prescribed Humulin I twice a day. They added Humalog, again twice a day and I used to mix them in the syringe (drawing up humalog first). then I was told to switch to insulin pens (and I do mean told, I had a very unpleasant conversatiom about it with someone at my GP surgery, and before you say, i know I should have complained). So I have 2 insulin pens, but I am still injecting twice a day. I have wondered if I should inject before lunch, but it has never been mentioned. i realise this probably makes me sound stupid, but I feel as if Iam having to work everything out for myself. I don't see a consultant any more, and appointments at my GPs are difficult to get and never long enough to ask everything I want to ask. It has definitely got more difficult since Covid. The attitude seems to be that my HbA1c is ok, so everything is ok, at my last check up they were more bothered about my blood pressure than my blood glucose. Probably repeating myself here: Humalog was added because I was always hungry and it was intended to mean I could eat a bit more, but injecting more than twice a day was never mentioned. Perhaps it isn't obvious but I'm Type 2 treated by insulin
 
@Fiona#42 It sounds like you have been pretty badly let down by the system not providing you with the information and support that you need. Are you self funding Libre or do you have that prescribed?

It really doesn't matter if you are TYpe 1 or Type 2, a basal/bolus system works the same where you inject your basal once or twice a day usually twice a day with Humulin i and the bolus is taken before each meal and the dose adjusted according to the carbs in what you are about to eat. I wonder is nurses have just assumed you know what you are doing and if your HbA1c is reasonably good then they are loath to change anything or even look at it any more closely but as you are aware there can be a lot of undesirable stuff going on that HbA1c doesn't pick up and that is just becoming clear with the arrival of CGM like Libre and Dexcom.

How long after diagnosis did you go on to needing insulin? I would not be particularly surprised if you were even a misdiagnoed Type 1 if you needed insulin pretty quickly after diagnosis.

Can you give us an idea of the doses you inject of each insulin and when you inject them?
What sort of Time in Range are you typically getting on your Libre?
 
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That's the last 4 days, monday was ok, Tuesday wasn't typical, Wednesday I was at work and Thursday the second spike was caused by a large helping of cauliflower cheese, which I has assumed was low carb.
 
A bit more information: (in no particular order)
Prescribed Libre
Was on insulin when I was pregnant with my daughter in 1988. Diagnosed 1992, initially given Metformin, then in 1994 prescribed Humulin I. I think Humalog was added 1995. Current doses 15 mins before meal, am 6 Humalog 30 Humulin I, pm 6 Humalog 20 Humulin I. The doses have come down because when I got the libre at first I kept going low. I was told how to adjust my insulin but it seems that I've been getting it wrong. Libre has been useful in that it has shown me where the issues are. Time in range is between 68% and 78%, though one day I did hit 80%. I had started to wonder if I was actually late onset type 1, but I don't think that it was recognised at the time.
 
If you were drawing up the Humalog and then the Humulin i in the same syringe, then that sounds like a mixed insulin regime @Fiona#42 That is, all you’re doing is making your own mixed insulin in the proportions you need. That’s why you’d be injecting twice a day - because it was a mixed regime.

But then you were given pens, which suggests they might have wanted you on the basal (Humulin i) plus additional Humalog as needed. Some people with Type 2 do this and just have Humalog before their evening meal.

Don’t add Humalog to lunch without checking what your actual regime is supposed to be now; if the morning Humulin i is covering lunch; and what your blood sugar is doing at that time.
 
Those graphs actually don't look too bad at all, and your Time in range is excellent so you are doing fantastically well considering how you have been left to muddle along and find what works for you with almost no guidance.

Those graphs don't show a large breakfast spike so I am not sure I would change anything about breakfast time unless other graphs more typically show a large spike after breakfast and then regular hypos mid morning but if it was me I would perhaps inject a small lunchtime bolus with the Humalog to stop the rise after lunch and that in turn would mean you were a bit lower before your evening meal which should then mean that the rise due to your evening meal doesn't take you quite so high. That small change might get you another 10-15% Time In Range, but honestly I would not be overly concerned about those results and you deserve a huge pat on the back for achieving them with so little support.

NB. When I say a small lunchtime bolus, I would start at just 1unit and see how that goes for a few days before increasing it by another unit if necessary.

If you regularly go low mid morning and need glucose then in your situation I would reduce the breakfast Humalog a little but perhaps increase the time between injecting and eating slightly and see how that goes for a few days.

Do be aware that exercise/activity in the first few hours after injecting Humalog can make the insulin more effective and drop you quicker so if you have planned exercise/activity then many of us reduce our meal time (bolus) insulin (Humalog in your case) for the meal before the exercise/increased activity, sometimes by as much as 50%, depending upon levels and the amount of exercise.
Prolonged exercise like a long walk or cycle ride will have a significant impact on my overnight levels and I have to reduce my evening basal dose (which would be Humulin i in your case) by a few units to prevent nocturnal hypos and that exercise will continue to impact my levels (lower them a bit) the following day and indeed the next night to a lesser extent, so you do have to be quite aware of the impact of exercise and adjust your insulin accordingly to prevent hypos or if it is unplanned, then have glucose handy to top up.

That is just me and we are all different, but those are some things to give some thought to and see what strategy might work for you to improve things. Just knowing that exercise and alcohol can have an impact on lowering your levels may enable you to see patterns a little better and work out strategies which will help you improve things a bit, but if you can achieve 70% time in range most of the time you are achieving the target that is generally agreed is ideal for reducing the risk of complications and managing your diabetes really well. If you can easily achieve better than that then fine but it is about balance and if it takes too much head space or micromanaging, then it is not worth while as you risk burning yourself out.
 
Those graphs actually don't look too bad at all, and your Time in range is excellent so you are doing fantastically well considering how you have been left to muddle along and find what works for you with almost no guidance.
I was thinking just the same @rebrascora

You look like you are doing really well @Fiona#42 and have done a lot of self-directed learning, which will stand you in really good stead as you try to tweak things and make small incremental improvements from where you are now. Bravo!
 
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