D
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And sadly, this is also the best argument as to why any profession should never be allowed to self police.
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Surgeon who branded his initials on patients' livers told he can keep working
- Thread starter Northerner
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trophywench
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All sorts of things I have read over the years written by medical experts who know far more than me about what internal organs can and can't do have told me that if you tear the liver apart jaggedly and so it has gaps in the join - the liver regenerates itself and just fills the gaps in itself. Yours has failed so you need a transplant - I'm a match - so have half of mine, not all of it - and we can both manage with only half of one until each half regenerates the missing parts. (I accept is it isn't quite as simple as that - but the skin can't do it anyway.)
rebrascora
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Why should Banksy be a special case? Because he is at the top of his game and makes brilliant social comment or because people "perceive" his work to be valuable and therefore it enhances the value of the property he defaces?
I would be furious if Banksy did his artwork on the side of my house, but like @mikeyB I could have a laugh with a surgeon who monogrammed a liver, which technically was not even mine until he installed it.
I would love to have been a fly on the wall at the CPS deliberations where a judgement was made about charging him and how they applied the law in this case. It would have been interesting to hear all the legal points considered. I see he pleaded guilty to assault by "beating" but not ABH.
It is fascinating how strongly many people feel about this and I wonder if it may reflect a combination of deep rooted cultural and perhaps political or even religious views. I consider myself to be a compassionate person, so it interests me that my view on this is so at odds with the majority of opinion here.
I also wonder who did the most harm to the person who was traumatized by the information that this had been done to them. It was the knowledge which caused the psychological damage not the actual act and they never would have known if they hadn't been told, so the mental damage was in telling them.
This sort of dilemma is interesting to think about albeit sad that someone is now struggling mentally as a result.
mikeyB
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B.Sc. (St Andrews) M.B. Ch.B. (Manchester), and skin heals with scarring, and therefore leaving a non- functional area. The liver doesn’t scar.
Inka
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i personally don’t think Banksy should be a special case, but he is because his graffiti makes money.
I’m not religious so religion plays no part in my view about this surgeon. It was a gross breach of trust and unprofessional. There’s also something very distasteful about branding your initials on another human being without their knowledge. It’s creepy and disturbing. I don’t see it at all as ‘signing an artwork’ - I see it as a mark of arrogance and a totally unnecessary act.
I’m not religious so religion plays no part in my view about this surgeon. It was a gross breach of trust and unprofessional. There’s also something very distasteful about branding your initials on another human being without their knowledge. It’s creepy and disturbing. I don’t see it at all as ‘signing an artwork’ - I see it as a mark of arrogance and a totally unnecessary act.
mikeyB
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As the liver is hidden behind the ribs and under the diaphragm on the right side of the body, that is hardly “branding your initials on another human being”. It’s like the stonemasons who built our great cathedrals, they always left their personal mark where nobody could see it. Mind you, they were built to last for centuries. We aren’t.
Even a surgeon doing a total colon removal wouldn’t see the liver, because he might well be using his minions to hold a liver retractor to keep it away from potential injury. That’s a fate I narrowly escaped from when I first developed ulcerative colitis, because it involved the whole of the colon, but I was saved by steroids orally and via the south entrance, plus luck. Even if they did remove the colon, I wouldn’t care less if the surgeon stitched “Kilroy was here” on my linea alba.
Even a surgeon doing a total colon removal wouldn’t see the liver, because he might well be using his minions to hold a liver retractor to keep it away from potential injury. That’s a fate I narrowly escaped from when I first developed ulcerative colitis, because it involved the whole of the colon, but I was saved by steroids orally and via the south entrance, plus luck. Even if they did remove the colon, I wouldn’t care less if the surgeon stitched “Kilroy was here” on my linea alba.
Eddy Edson
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I mainly think this is funny, but I also think it's bizarre that anybody wouldn't realise that a lot of people would find it really distressing, and that doing it is therefore a clear breach of do-no-harm principles.
Of course what the patient thinks about it is the only thing which matters - that the surgeon, you or I don't find it a big deal is completely irrelevant.
Of course what the patient thinks about it is the only thing which matters - that the surgeon, you or I don't find it a big deal is completely irrelevant.
Inka
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And some yobs graffiti cathedrals. I was going to say this surgeon was more like that, but actually there’s no comparison between a human being and a building.
One of the patients he did this to said she felt “violated” and had lost her trust in medical staff. The initials were 4cm high. The patient also said “thought of someone doing this to me while I was unconscious is abhorrent."
The fact a small number of people might be ok with it doesn’t make it right. The surgeon did not say he was initialling his work because he was proud of it or anything similar. He said he did it to ‘relieve tension’.
One of the patients he did this to said she felt “violated” and had lost her trust in medical staff. The initials were 4cm high. The patient also said “thought of someone doing this to me while I was unconscious is abhorrent."
The fact a small number of people might be ok with it doesn’t make it right. The surgeon did not say he was initialling his work because he was proud of it or anything similar. He said he did it to ‘relieve tension’.
The skin doesn't always leave a scar when it heals.
I also said "within reason".
And it is not true that the liver doesn't scar. It's called cirrhosis.
Mikey, if you were my doctor, I'd be wanting a second opinion bud. 😛🙂
Absolutely.
It's frightening and tragic how many people see the letters "Dr" and feel they can't question them.
There's an unwarranted automatic assumption of competence.
mikeyB
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The liver doesn’t scar after surgery. And if you called me bud in the surgery you would leave looking for another doctor, pal.😉
D
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Not any more.
It used to be, when the profession closed ranks, and the news wasn't easily available.
Not it's easy to go online, the harsh reality has appeared.
It's exactly the same as any other profession.
Learn a trade, do it well, or do it badly.
Or coast down the centre.
You'd get away with it before, but now people are accountable, and the myth is dispelled.
Which is a good thing.
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D
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By that logic the victims of Reynhard Sinaga would have suffered no harm, and it was the fault of the police in contacting them to tell them of the crime, as the majority had no memory of the event?
Well we're certainly getting that way in terms of people educating themselves. Obviously it doesn't mean we can self-diagnose accurately but it certainly means we have the ability to ask better questions of our doctors. For example, you might remember me whining about my diabetes consultant trying to stop my insulin because he said I was a Type 2. Well that's him literally just off the phone to confirm my c-peptide test has come back low, confirming Type 1. If I'd just obeyed him unquestioningly and come off insulin, I dread to think what state I'd be in right now. There's no doubt he's mis-diagnosing others as Type 2 and he's not alone out there.
Being in any trade or profession doesn't mean you are any damn good at it. It's odd that people even thought it was different from that. Many still do sadly.
Just like my own GP, I'd be using your first name if I was addressing you at all.
I don't ask people to call me by my academic title and I certainly never address others by theirs.
It's not 1960 anymore.
Amity Island
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So true!
It's all down to peoples morals, values, personalities and more often than not, ego's. As you say, it's not just builders from hell, it's doctors, nurses, surgeons, dentists too etc etc.........sales people, neighbours, care assistants, shop assistants, parents, kids, teachers, drivers etc etc........
I would agree with the ego bit although I think it goes further than that.
In my experience it's also fuelled by entitlement and being surrounded by enablers.
These are people who have never been seriously challenged in their lives, realise their talent buys them a lot of leeway and now feel empowered to continue behaving in appalling ways.
Someone compared this guy to Banksie. A better comparison would be Jimmy Saville. Or Harvey Weinstein. Or Harold Shipman. Jeezo, we could be here all day.....
So what can we do about it?
We need to stop white knighting people.
Stop putting people on pedestals.
Stop using someone's talent as an excuse for bad behaviour.
That would be a great place for the rest of us to start.
D
Deleted member 21371
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If a doctor needs to be addressed by their "title", I'd choose a new doctor.
If they aren't interested in actually attempting to develop a relationship, and can't realise that putting people at ease, rather than attempting to intimidate them is a better way to get people to open up, I won't be stopping.
It is an age thing I suspect, on both sides.
I have an elderly relative, we go to the same optician, she is on Mrs X terms with her, and won't "waster her time" telling her the problems she has with her eyes. She actually has several.
I'm on first name terms, (my relative is horrified) we chat about everything, I pay for a private OCT scan, we look at the images, and all in I probably spend an hour there, but I leave will the feeling she has given me a better service overall.
nonethewiser
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Man has did wrong & been punished for it, but seriously you'd compare him to those 3 monsters, you need to have reality check about their crimes.
Thought better of you fella tbh.
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