Surgeon who branded his initials on patients' livers told he can keep working

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All else being equal I'd prefer that my innards not be used as a graffiti wall by surgeons. They should continue to get their jollies from vivisecting baby ocelots or whatever it is they do for entertainment.

But I doubt that people surprised at a surgeon displaying breath-taking narcissm have actually met very many of them.
 
ToughButtercup said:
I suspect the defence offered is based on an acute sense of our own fallibility.
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To err is human and no one is perfect.

Although to inscribe your initials
on anothers internal organs is egotistical at best and psychotic as worse as discussed.

My point is and always was - he has been through criminal and professional proceedings and judged by our peers and his.

He has been punished and assessed as low risk of doing it again. Regardless of our distain for what he did, ending a brilliant career and starving patients from his rare lifesaving skill is a pretty harsh punishment and its possible
to forgive but not forget.
 
BlueArmy said:
To err is human and no one is perfect.

Although to inscribe your initials
on anothers internal organs is egotistical at best and psychotic as worse as discussed.

My point is and always was - he has been through criminal and professional proceedings and judged by our peers and his.

He has been punished and assessed as low risk of doing it again. Regardless of our distain for what he did, ending a brilliant career and starving patients from his rare lifesaving skill is a pretty harsh punishment and its possible
to forgive but not forget.
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What if he was a mediocre surgeon?
Or if he was a bad one?
 
you’d hope the medical regulators would undertake a benefit/risk assessment as part of their review. If he was average and has little to offer in terms of saving lives, developing others etc, contributing knowledge - you’d hope that factored into their decision making as to if you allow him to continue. Some juice isn’t worth the effort of the squeeze - and if the risk outweighs the benefit - then they should draw a line under it and move on.
 
I would imagine, to be in a situation where he is doing transplant ops, would suggest that he is at the top of his game anyway, and most likely leading a team since I find it hard to imagine a more junior surgeon would have the arrogance or opportunity to monogram someone's liver. I also think it highly likely that his team were aware of what he did and didn't report him, if this only came to light later, which suggests he is probably well respected by his peers, even if his judgment on ethics is amiss. I wonder that he has only done it twice.
 
rebrascora said:
I would imagine, to be in a situation where he is doing transplant ops, would suggest that he is at the top of his game anyway, and most likely leading a team since I find it hard to imagine a more junior surgeon would have the arrogance or opportunity to monogram someone's liver. I also think it highly likely that his team were aware of what he did and didn't report him, if this only came to light later, which suggests he is probably well respected by his peers, even if his judgment on ethics is amiss. I wonder that he has only done it twice.
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"A nurse who saw the initialling questioned what had happened and Bramhall was said to have replied: "I do this."
www.bbc.co.uk

'Liver branding' surgeon Simon Bramhall fined £10,000

Simon Bramhall is fined for branding his initials on two patients' livers.
www.bbc.co.uk

It's more a case that the theatre nurse would lose their job.
Whistle blowers are punished in the NHS, it's a culture of fear.

It only came to light when a different surgeon removed the liver as it failed (for reasons not associated with the first surgeon) and reported the incident.
The other patient discovered is having physiological issues.

"Prosecutor Tony Badenoch QC said one of the two victims was left feeling "violated" and suffered ongoing psychological harm"

So, the surgeon also did direct harm to a patient.
 
He was charged with two offences but it wasn’t denied that there might have been other offences.

I don’t think whether he’s a good/average/brilliant surgeon comes into it really. Surely we judge people on their actions not who they are or how good they are at their job? Either something is wrong to do or it’s not. If two surgeons had been doing this and only the mediocre one lost his job, then that would be wrong IMO.
 
Inka said:
He was charged with two offences but it wasn’t denied that there might have been other offences.

I don’t think whether he’s a good/average/brilliant surgeon comes into it really. Surely we judge people on their actions not who they are or how good they are at their job? Either something is wrong to do or it’s not. If two surgeons had been doing this and only the mediocre one lost his job, then that would be wrong IMO.
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What comes next,
A brilliant brain surgeon can tattoo his name on your scalp as the hair will grow back over it?
 
travellor said:
"A nurse who saw the initialling questioned what had happened and Bramhall was said to have replied: "I do this."
www.bbc.co.uk

'Liver branding' surgeon Simon Bramhall fined £10,000

Simon Bramhall is fined for branding his initials on two patients' livers.
www.bbc.co.uk

It's more a case that the theatre nurse would lose their job.
Whistle blowers are punished in the NHS, it's a culture of fear.

It only came to light when a different surgeon removed the liver as it failed (for reasons not associated with the first surgeon) and reported the incident.
The other patient discovered is having physiological issues.

"Prosecutor Tony Badenoch QC said one of the two victims was left feeling "violated" and suffered ongoing psychological harm"

So, the surgeon also did direct harm to a patient.
Click to expand...

then the medical regulator should take that into consideration. At the end of the day, he took an oath to do no harm, if there are repercussions medically from his actions then it moves from negligent to gross negligence I would say, then no matter how good he was the NHS is btter off without him. However, the regulator has the facts, the media are reporting their version of the facts as they understand them. I guess this is where faith has to step in around their robustness of their evaluations and processes.
 
Inka said:
He was charged with two offences but it wasn’t denied that there might have been other offences.

I don’t think whether he’s a good/average/brilliant surgeon comes into it really. Surely we judge people on their actions not who they are or how good they are at their job? Either something is wrong to do or it’s not. If two surgeons had been doing this and only the mediocre one lost his job, then that would be wrong IMO.
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life is rarely that binary though is it. Weather its right or wrong is of no debate, its wrong end of. But decisions must look at the issue in the round and assess all elements, including the benefits of keeping someone vs the risk of managing them based on poor behaviours is the point I am making, and with such a controversial decision I’d expect that was heavily scrutinised and debated by the regulator.
 
BlueArmy said:
life is rarely that binary though is it. Weather its right or wrong is of no debate, its wrong end of. But decisions must look at the issue in the round and assess all elements, including the benefits of keeping someone vs the risk of managing them based on poor behaviours is the point I am making, and with such a controversial decision I’d expect that was heavily scrutinised and debated by the regulator.
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That's the funny old thing about life.
It seems to be the same people do the reviews, no matter who you are.
If you're a doctor, it's your peers, doctors magistrates, judges, all people from your walk of life.
If you're the hospital cleaner, it's still the doctors, magistrates, judges, just most likely in a different setting, such as a tribunal or court.
Maybe we need to mix it up then, let the cleaner make the review of the doctors, or put the cleaners, street sweepers, etc, in the magistrates courts to judge their peers?
 
I’m astonished at how this has gotten to where it is. The liver is the only organ in the body to able to heal itself. Those initials won’t be there now, as he probably knows full well. It’s hardly a cosmetic issue, and how anyone could be horrified and feel violated by it is beyond my comprehension. If anyone did that to my new liver, not that need one, I’d have a laugh.

And if you take all the badges off a Ferrari, it’s still a Ferrari and will work just the same. But you won’t, because of vanity. Artists sign their works not because of vanity, but pride because of their success at producing a masterpiece.
 
the whole thread is a little jumbled - the news article was in relation to him being allowed to practice again, not what he did. Not sure scarring will heal itself, if it did there would be no liver cirrhosis, but I’ll leave someone medically trained to discuss that one further! Although it has been a good discussion.
 
mikeyB said:
I’m astonished at how this has gotten to where it is. The liver is the only organ in the body to able to heal itself. Those initials won’t be there now, as he probably knows full well. It’s hardly a cosmetic issue, and how anyone could be horrified and feel violated by it is beyond my comprehension. If anyone did that to my new liver, not that need one, I’d have a laugh.

And if you take all the badges off a Ferrari, it’s still a Ferrari and will work just the same. But you won’t, because of vanity. Artists sign their works not because of vanity, but pride because of their success at producing a masterpiece.
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Argon beam?
You reckon if you cauterise skin with an argon beam, there won't be a scar?
Or it will heal.
So in theory, any procedure, internal or external, could be signed off, and there wouldn't be a blemish?
And there is absolutely no risk with an argon laser?
Unnecessary cauterising procedures are acceptable?
Just signing off his work as an artist while he has the laser in his hands anyway?
 
If it heals then I think he lacked imagination - should of inscribed a recipe for liver and onions on it.
 
BlueArmy said:
the whole thread is a little jumbled - the news article was in relation to him being allowed to practice again, not what he did. Not sure scarring will heal itself, if it did there would be no liver cirrhosis, but I’ll leave someone medically trained to discuss that one further! Although it has been a good discussion.
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I am medically trained. Early liver cirrhosis can be reversed or halted if the cause (usually excess alcohol consumption) is removed. Surgery on the liver doesn’t cause any scar formation. And in this case, a bit of superficial cookery with an Argon laser won’t have the remotest effect on liver function. You could lose an entire lobe of your liver and still lead a healthy life without hindrance.
 
mikeyB said:
I am medically trained. Early liver cirrhosis can be reversed or halted if the cause (usually excess alcohol consumption) is removed. Surgery on the liver doesn’t cause any scar formation. And in this case, a bit of superficial cookery with an Argon laser won’t have the remotest effect on liver function. You could lose an entire lobe of your liver and still lead a healthy life without hindrance.
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There you go, he does lack imagination then!
 
BlueArmy said:
There you go, he does lack imagination then!
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Absolutely. If he wasn't such a loser, he'd have been doing topiary with these people's tripes, not just a bit of graffiti.
 
Still struggling to get over the idea of equating what this guy did to Banksie's graffiti and defacing a Ferrari badge. 😱
 
mikeyB said:
I’m astonished at how this has gotten to where it is. The liver is the only organ in the body to able to heal itself. ce.
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No it isn't. Skin is the single largest organ and within reason it will also heal itself
Are you sure you are medically trained? 😉
 
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