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D
Deleted member 21371
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Exactly.
We're talking Newcastle Diet, and none of the Diabetic subjects actually needed surgery afterwards, so that's completely irrelevant to the Newcastle Diet procedure.
I seem to remember a lot of people saying it could never work at the time, and saying how "real" food was the only way.
It's good to see you advising low fat and low calorie there though.
I didn't even get told that back in the day.
AndBreathe
Well-Known Member
- Relationship to Diabetes
- Type 2
I'm willing to be corrected on this, but I believe it was those post-bariatric surgery who piqued his interest, but those are just details.
AndBreathe
Well-Known Member
- Relationship to Diabetes
- Type 2
Baring in mind, he seems to be in the US, where intervention seems to be the name of the game, I wouldn't put too much store by what he says. To be fair though, I have done no more than look at where he is.
I'd have to be beyond desperate, squared, to even consider bariatric surgery - ever.
nonethewiser
Well-Known Member
- Relationship to Diabetes
- Type 1
Totally agree, bulky white goods items retailers were often found in these retail parks in 1980s, likes of Comet Currys Argos for example.
Like you still like visiting city centres up & down country, as a child there was something exciting about going into town with friends on Saturdays.
D
Deleted member 21371
Guest
He did see that, yes.
But what started him on his breakthrough was the blood results of some patients in the pre checks going into surgery, it seems their BG had normalised before the actual surgery had taken place, following the low fat low calorie diet sheet.
He then went on to standardise it and do a controlled study to prove weight loss could be effective to reverse type 2.
Where the low carb diet had got them into ketosis you mean.
Which is why they tested for ketones in the Counterpoint study (the precursor to DiRECT) to ensure dietary adherence....
"
Dietary adherence was assessed using capillary ketone levels"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3168743/
Maybe it was the ketogenic state that induced remission?
D
Deleted member 21371
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I hope you contacted the Professor and his team to correct their mistake.
I wonder if he will have to give his MBE back?
In fact I did ask him that very question by e-mail but didn't get a response... I can't imagine why...
Dragonheart
Well-Known Member
- Relationship to Diabetes
- Type 2
Possibly in his book, around page 159. I don’t have a copy of any of his books to hand to check. I recall it on twitter too but can’t locate it at the moment
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Also https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/
“Remission primarily depended upon degree of weight loss, with achievement increasing steadily from (7%) with only 0–5 kg weight loss to 86% who lost 15 kg or more.”
“Substantial weight loss achieved by any means can bring about remission of type 2 diabetes, and this has been observed most comprehensively in the Swedish obesity study”
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Nutritional basis of type 2 diabetes remission
Roy Taylor and colleagues explain how type 2 diabetes can be reversed by weight loss and avoidance of weight regain Type 2 diabetes mellitus was once thought to be irreversible and progressive, but a series of clinical studies over the past 12 years have clarified the mechanisms that cause the...
“The hypothesis was developed from emerging knowledge on the relation between liver fat and control of the constant flow of glucose into the blood as well as observation that normal insulin secretion returned after substantial weight loss in people with type 2 diabetes.” Make no mention of a particular methodology required
“Testing the hypothesis required a sure-fire way of achieving around 15 kg weight loss, and one of the most striking findings of the 2011 Counterpoint study was the acceptability of a low calorie liquid diet for a short planned period.1” demonstrates this choice was an option rather than a requirement and key was the loss itself
“Any sustained decrease in calorie intake is able to remove the excess intra-organ fat” anti low carbers argue low carb is really low cal in disguise. Can’t have it both ways
“Merely providing the information on the degree of weight loss required for remission can allow motivated people to achieve this for themselves using their preferred method.19” again focusing on loss not method
“Type 2 diabetes can be reversed by substantial weight loss in the early years after diagnosis, and the pathophysiological basis of this is now clear. Long term maintenance of weight loss brings about lasting remission, but this is more difficult to achieve than weight loss.” Again loss not method
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Population response to information on reversibility of Type 2 diabetes - PubMed
These data demonstrate that intentional weight loss achieved at home by health-motivated individuals can reverse Type 2 diabetes. Diabetes reversal should be a goal in the management of Type 2 diabetes.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
“These data demonstrate that intentional weight loss achieved at home by health-motivated individuals can reverse Type 2 diabetes. Diabetes reversal should be a goal in the management of Type 2 diabetes.” And again loss without mention of method.
All emphasis in bold is mine not Taylor’s
Dragonheart
Well-Known Member
- Relationship to Diabetes
- Type 2
And this (Reddit not twitter)
There’s no special protocol. The only essential is that total body fat is substantially decreased by any means to suit an individual.
Q Do you think a moderately calorie restricted ketogenic diet might be able to replicate the results? A What we’re finding is it doesn’t matter how you achieve the weight loss – it’s losing the substantial amount – usually around 15% of body weight – that makes the difference. The really important matter is keeping the weight off long term.
It is very clear that the background insulin sensitivity is determined by genes. However, obesity and physical activity can modify this substantially.
Such people have clearly demonstrated that their constitution puts them at risk of diabetes and this risk still remains. However, if they decrease their weight below their personal fat threshold (a level at which blood sugar is normal for them) then they will remain free of Type 2 diabetes during their active life.
And finally
And, happily, the data from these real experts confirmed the findings of Counterpoint. The average weight loss achieved by people just armed with the basic information was the same as in Counterpoint – 15kg. At home and at work, going about their daily lives, people had replicated our research findings. And what emerged was that it was the weight loss that mattered, not the particular diet the participants went on or how they did it. Around half of the group had used a liquid formula diet – as in Counterpoint – and the other half had merely cut back drastically on their normal eating. A high proportion had sought individual advice as advised on our website and had been told by their doctor or diabetes nurse in no uncertain terms not to try to lose weight rapidly. But they were so highly motivated to get rid of their diabetes that they had emailed me on hearing news reports, and understandably they had gone ahead anyway.
Prof Roy Taylor - Life Without Diabetes 2019
There’s no special protocol. The only essential is that total body fat is substantially decreased by any means to suit an individual.
Q Do you think a moderately calorie restricted ketogenic diet might be able to replicate the results? A What we’re finding is it doesn’t matter how you achieve the weight loss – it’s losing the substantial amount – usually around 15% of body weight – that makes the difference. The really important matter is keeping the weight off long term.
It is very clear that the background insulin sensitivity is determined by genes. However, obesity and physical activity can modify this substantially.
Such people have clearly demonstrated that their constitution puts them at risk of diabetes and this risk still remains. However, if they decrease their weight below their personal fat threshold (a level at which blood sugar is normal for them) then they will remain free of Type 2 diabetes during their active life.
And finally
And, happily, the data from these real experts confirmed the findings of Counterpoint. The average weight loss achieved by people just armed with the basic information was the same as in Counterpoint – 15kg. At home and at work, going about their daily lives, people had replicated our research findings. And what emerged was that it was the weight loss that mattered, not the particular diet the participants went on or how they did it. Around half of the group had used a liquid formula diet – as in Counterpoint – and the other half had merely cut back drastically on their normal eating. A high proportion had sought individual advice as advised on our website and had been told by their doctor or diabetes nurse in no uncertain terms not to try to lose weight rapidly. But they were so highly motivated to get rid of their diabetes that they had emailed me on hearing news reports, and understandably they had gone ahead anyway.
Prof Roy Taylor - Life Without Diabetes 2019
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D
Deleted member 21371
Guest
As I said, fortunately for me, all that came out after I'd decided to go for fast weight loss, and substantially more than 15%, as that hadn't done the trick for me.
Maybe the NHS has a similar feeling, as they only prescribe the shake based diet protocol.
Dragonheart
Well-Known Member
- Relationship to Diabetes
- Type 2
Possibly because they see it as the easiest and most controllable way to put people onto something that will get them the weight loss and because it fits the low calorie message they’ve put out for years. It’s much easier than re-educating people as a population to very low carb/keto which would contradict many of the mantra of recent years. And there are enough companies able to (make a fast buck- oops delete) the soup and shakes making the process simply too.
So you’re saying 15 (kg or %) wasn’t enough for you and you weren’t a typical responder either (although you got there in the end? How much was required? Can I ask how long ago this was for you?
D
Deleted member 21371
Guest
I did post earlier in this thread about that.
From memory it was 2014, but thinking about it, it may have been earlier.
I did post about it on the "red" forum at the time, it was hilarious.
Talk about triggered!
It's probably still on there somewhere.
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AndBreathe
Well-Known Member
- Relationship to Diabetes
- Type 2
It’ll be there, you just search on your user name for your content.
AndBreathe
Well-Known Member
- Relationship to Diabetes
- Type 2
I’m pretty certain they prescribe the shakes because it’s easier than prescribing miscellaneous foodstuffs; balancing quantities etc.
Not quite true also available via the NHS...
Low Carb Program - Sustainable Weight Loss and Blood Glucose Control
NHS patients can use this page to enroll into the Low Carb Program and redeem free access.
www.lowcarbprogram.com
D
Deleted member 21371
Guest
Not quite true also available via the NHS...
Low Carb Program - Sustainable Weight Loss and Blood Glucose Control
NHS patients can use this page to enroll into the Low Carb Program and redeem free access.
Ah, but the NHS actually prescribe the Newcastle Diet.
Do you know any HCP that ever prescribed the access code for the Low Carb Program?
Do your practice do it, you will know as you are on the steering committee?
D
Deleted member 21371
Guest
I got banned for not toeing the party line.
I don't need to go back there, way too fringe for me.
I know of one local practise that does follow low carb.. whether the use the low carb prog I have no idea.. unfortunately mine refuses to adopt it and would rather have their patients suffer...
I'm hardly on the "steering committee" just a member of the PPG.
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