NHS Low Calorie Diet - Type 2 Remission Programme - Oviva (aka Newcastle)

[Kreator]

I thought I'd share this link;

NHS England » NHS soups and shakes diet helps thousands shed the pounds

Over 2,000 people with Type 2 diabetes have now improved their health through the NHS soups and shakes diet programme – with participants losing an average of 13kg (over two stone) in three months. From this month, thousands more will also get access to the programme as its early and...

www.england.nhs.uk

Believe it's being expanded to additional areas if anyone is interested?

 

[Weekender]

I thought I'd share this link;

NHS England » NHS soups and shakes diet helps thousands shed the pounds

Over 2,000 people with Type 2 diabetes have now improved their health through the NHS soups and shakes diet programme – with participants losing an average of 13kg (over two stone) in three months. From this month, thousands more will also get access to the programme as its early and...

www.england.nhs.uk

Believe it's being expanded to additional areas if anyone is interested?

Great news

 

[Micky Mannis]

Hi All,

25/08/2021 - Link: https://www.england.nhs.uk/diabetes/treatment-care/low-calorie-diets/ - Includes links at the bottom to DiRECT Year 1, DiRECT Year 2 & DROPLET Trials 😉

25/08/2021 - Link: https://oviva.com/uk/en/programme/diabetes-remission/#join - This explains the programme specific to Oviva

Hope everyone is safe & well!

Copied from my post from the newbie section, and thought it would be better to re-post into the weight loss section...

Just joined the forum after being diagnosed with type 2 in 2018...found this forum and have been hooked ever since! - some really interesting views and advise, and great to read so many people's positive comments...

This disease is so complicated! - The last 3 years have been a rollercoaster, and I'm sure there's more to come...

Initial Type 2 Diagnosis HbA1c 88 in 2018, immediately bought a blood glucose monitor to see what foods would set me off, 3 months later 52, then hovering between 45 (once) to 47-48 every blood test...Metformin max dose all the way through - 2000mg

So finally took the plunge further to get onto the NHS Low Calorie Diet Diabetes Remission Programme provided by Oviva...which I pushed my DN for...

First HbA1c since being on the shakes - 42 without Metformin...Fasting Blood Glucose mainly around 4.2 daily - some slighlty slower, some slightly higher, but good all round...

Initial start weight 77.5Kg - 5ft 4" - The NHS program is provided by Oviva - I was told target weight was 62.5Kg - what?!! - there'll be nothing left of me I said! - In hindsight - there's still plenty of me left...!

10 weeks in and managed to lose 11Kg (Weight now at 66.5Kg), 2 weeks to go on full TDR, and feeling ok about things generally - It's not easy though...!

Bought Roy Taylor's book 'Life Without Diabetes' - such an interesting read

Hardest part to come I think - food re-introduction and food maintenance...lets see...

One thing for sure though, this forum has helped me immensely, thank you!

I cheated for years i was away up at 21 stone and hated it my GP put me forward for a trial involving a drug called Ozempic after which the weight came off 2 or 3 pounds a week until i got to around 17 and a half stone yhen it levelled off but after a bad time of getting my blood sugars under controlled my GP doubled the dose and ive 2 stone off in eight weeks and its flying off every week 3 or 4 pounds a week it such a relief

 

[Kreator]

Hi All,

Well...what a few months it's been!

Weight as of this morning...59.8Kg - and it's been between 59.5 - 60.5 every week for the last few months

Fasting Gloucose levels remain stable at around 4.2, 4.3 no matter what I've eaten the night before

My main takes from this whole journey is;

Lose at least 15Kg (I lost aound 20Kg) in 3 months using shakes

start to explore food again for the next 3 months being mindful around calorie intake and what each food group is and what it's uses are - also start to increase steps / exercise

Get used to new habits and new way of thinking around food for 3 months as well as keep up the steps / exercise

Start to enjoy your new way of eating habits as they become normal as well as enjoying the much increased active lifestyle! - Forever!

The last few months have been full of Birthday's, special occasions, stress at times, but I seem to have found a normal way of eating, which is 3 meals a day and no snacking - these are my 'normal' days. On the special occasions, yep, I do indulge, including beer & cake, but don't over-do it - once the party is over so to speak, it's back to normal...

If I'm stressed, I'll go for a walk/Jog or ride my bike - this clears my head and keeps my exercise up, so I'm killing 2 birds...

All sounds easy, but to get there it's been a massive jouney and some deep thinking and reflection as well as observation, none of this has been easy, and requires a lot of effort and some deep thinking, but becomes easier the more you keep your new habits which need to be enojoyable - this is key...

Next HbA1C check is due at the beginning of May, so I'll post once results are available...

😉

 

[Nayshiftin]

Hi All,

Well...what a few months it's been!

Weight as of this morning...59.8Kg - and it's been between 59.5 - 60.5 every week for the last few months

Fasting Gloucose levels remain stable at around 4.2, 4.3 no matter what I've eaten the night before

My main takes from this whole journey is;

Lose at least 15Kg (I lost aound 20Kg) in 3 months using shakes

start to explore food again for the next 3 months being mindful around calorie intake and what each food group is and what it's uses are - also start to increase steps / exercise

Get used to new habits and new way of thinking around food for 3 months as well as keep up the steps / exercise

Start to enjoy your new way of eating habits as they become normal as well as enjoying the much increased active lifestyle! - Forever!

The last few months have been full of Birthday's, special occasions, stress at times, but I seem to have found a normal way of eating, which is 3 meals a day and no snacking - these are my 'normal' days. On the special occasions, yep, I do indulge, including beer & cake, but don't over-do it - once the party is over so to speak, it's back to normal...

If I'm stressed, I'll go for a walk/Jog or ride my bike - this clears my head and keeps my exercise up, so I'm killing 2 birds...

All sounds easy, but to get there it's been a massive jouney and some deep thinking and reflection as well as observation, none of this has been easy, and requires a lot of effort and some deep thinking, but becomes easier the more you keep your new habits which need to be enojoyable - this is key...

Next HbA1C check is due at the beginning of May, so I'll post once results are available...

😉

Well done . I wish o could do this . Not doing it I my area. I know I’m fat and telling me that makes no difference. Well done you .

 

[Windy]

Well done . I wish o could do this . Not doing it I my area. I know I’m fat and telling me that makes no difference. Well done you .

It wasn't offered in my area either (but excitingly, it is now, according to the NHS England press release), so I made up my own 800-830 calorie a day diet and followed that instead. There's one offered by Dr Mike Lean (who was one of the scientists behind the low calorie diet trial) that does a free diet plan you can do yourself if you're interested in trying it. Lots of lentil soup etc, looks ok to me.
My made up diet comprised omelettes for breakfast, soup for lunch and a small portion of a normal meal for dinner. I can't say it was easy to follow, but I managed it. I'm also fat (clinically obese), but something snapped in my brain when I was diagnosed with the D, and I went for it. I know it's not easy, but why don't you try it for a fortnight and see if you can do it @Nayshiftin ? Or swap out breakfast for a 250 calorie breakfast instead? or soup of lunch or whatever works for you.
Best wishes, Sarah

 

[Kreator]

Next HbA1C check is due at the beginning of May, so I'll post once results are available...

Hmm, Latest HbA1C is 39....

Wasn't sure what to think to this initially, but on reflection, I think it's a good number...

It means I'm still 'Non Diabetic' but high enough to give me a warning shot not to get complacent, so am I happy - no I'd love it to be lower, but I'm realistic enough to know that it will keep me on my toes a little, and also to celebrate that I'm fully 'In Remission'

My weight and Fasting Blood sugar levels have again remained totally stable throughout, as has my waist circumference, so hey ho I guess!

To be fair, I've had 3 family Birthdays the last couple of months which has kept me fed with home baked cakes etc. (Mindful of course!) so maybe this has contribted to the slightly upwards HbA1C trend - who knows, but it's not weight gain for sure, so will see what happens over the next few months...

Next HbA1C check is 6 months away, so I'll reflect back on my eating habits and try to adjust slightly if needed...

What a year it's been though!

I hope my thread along with other similar threads prove to be useful to people in the future, this forum has been an immense help to me the last year, and I'll continue to watch and post when I can...

Thank You! 😉

 

[BeeBusy]

Thank you for sharing! I was under the impression the only way to remission was a ketogenic diet, but your diet is Mediterranean. So good to know!

Congratulations on all you've achieved! This was a lot of work and willpower! Fantastic results and super inspirational!

Could you please share what you eat on a typical day? I'm not in the UK and I'm not diabetic, but the trend of my blood sugar is bad and if I don't do something, I'll become T2 diabetic.

I'm 5ft4 and weight is 63 kg (BMI 23.4). I'm a woman, 53 years old. How do you calculate the weight you need to achieve?

I'm afraid to eat things like lentils (carbs), because they rise my blood sugar above 140 mg/dL. Do you measure your blood sugar 1h after meals?

I'm trying to find out if it is ok to go on a diet that gets my blood sugar above 140 mg/dL after meals. At the moment, I'm afraid of it. But I need to find an alternative to the ketogenic diet, because the keto diet has increased my morning blood sugar and cholesterol.

My latest A1c was my highest ever. It is in the green zone, but trending up. In spite of a low carb diet.

Thank you for reading and helping so much with sharing your story!

 

[Eddy Edson]

Thank you for sharing! I was under the impression the only way to remission was a ketogenic diet, but your diet is Mediterranean. So good to know!

Congratulations on all you've achieved! This was a lot of work and willpower! Fantastic results and super inspirational!

Could you please share what you eat on a typical day? I'm not in the UK and I'm not diabetic, but the trend of my blood sugar is bad and if I don't do something, I'll become T2 diabetic.

I'm 5ft4 and weight is 63 kg (BMI 23.4). I'm a woman, 53 years old. How do you calculate the weight you need to achieve?

I'm afraid to eat things like lentils (carbs), because they rise my blood sugar above 140 mg/dL. Do you measure your blood sugar 1h after meals?

I'm trying to find out if it is ok to go on a diet that gets my blood sugar above 140 mg/dL after meals. At the moment, I'm afraid of it. But I need to find an alternative to the ketogenic diet, because the keto diet has increased my morning blood sugar and cholesterol.

My latest A1c was my highest ever. It is in the green zone, but trending up. In spite of a low carb diet.

Thank you for reading and helping so much with sharing your story!

Can I just hop in to this discussion to say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with going above 140 mg/dl (7.8 mmol/l) from time to time - non-diabetics do so routinely.

To the extent that this level us any kjnd of an issue, it is only in the context of 2 hours after eating, not some brief spike on a shorter time frame. But it is hardly an issue even then, if yr HbA1c is "normal".

If you're getting contrary advice somewhere - eg that 140 mg/dl is a bad level even if it's just briefly, a few minutes after eating - just ignore it. The person is either a charlatan or clueless.

 

[Kreator]

Could you please share what you eat on a typical day? I'm not in the UK and I'm not diabetic, but the trend of my blood sugar is bad and if I don't do something, I'll become T2 diabetic.

I'm afraid it doesn't really work like that - everyone is different, but you have to find your own balance - it can take a while, but once you get there you'll know what suits you and what doesn't - sounds like an odd concept, but what I eat now isn't a 'diet' it's a lifestyle choice - I can choose to eat takeaway if I want but just not every day...

It's been important to me throughout not to 'rule' any foods out, as I can't go through life denying myself certain foods here & there, for me it's all about balance (Mainly heathly choices though!) with the odd twist to keep everything from being militant, as that would never last...

 

[BeeBusy]

I'm afraid it doesn't really work like that - everyone is different, but you have to find your own balance - it can take a while, but once you get there you'll know what suits you and what doesn't - sounds like an odd concept, but what I eat now isn't a 'diet' it's a lifestyle choice - I can choose to eat takeaway if I want but just not every day...

It's been important to me throughout not to 'rule' any foods out, as I can't go through life denying myself certain foods here & there, for me it's all about balance (Mainly heathly choices though!) with the odd twist to keep everything from being militant, as that would never last...

Thank you for your reply.

So, you eat everything, just in smaller portions? Counting to a certain number of calories per day, or week? And trying to eat most days healthy foods?

When you eat high carb foods, your postprandial blood glucose stays below 140, or does it go above? 140 mg/dL = 7.8 in UK units

Healthy foods as in vegetables? Or meat? Or both?

Thank you for your help!

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Thank you for your reply.

So, you eat everything, just in smaller portions? Counting to a certain number of calories per day, or week? And trying to eat most days healthy foods?

When you eat high carb foods, your postprandial blood glucose stays below 140, or does it go above? 140 mg/dL = 7.8 in UK units

Healthy foods as in vegetables? Or meat? Or both?

Thank you for your help!

Who on earth convinced you 140 at one hour is the holy grail?
Have you tested non diabetic relatives?
Personally, I count nothing, I just use the scales and a mirror.
They tell me enough about food, and gym time.
(In the past, I only tested at 1 hour if I was actively chasing highs, 2 hours is the correct time to test)

 

[BeeBusy]

Who on earth convinced you 140 at one hour is the holy grail?
Have you tested non diabetic relatives?
Personally, I count nothing, I just use the scales and a mirror.
They tell me enough about food, and gym time.
(In the past, I only tested at 1 hour if I was actively chasing highs, 2 hours is the correct time to test)

I see. Unfortunately, if I'd trust the mirror, I wouldn't diet at all. I've never been overweight, nor obese. I want to get rid of invisible visceral fat that I'm assuming I must have, based on Dr Taylor's book.

As for the 140, that comes from reading books like blood sugar 101 and papers such as this:

Postprandial glycemic response in a non-diabetic adult population: the effect of nutrients is different between men and women - Nutrition & Metabolism

Background There is a growing interest in the pathopysiological consequences of postprandial hyperglycemia. It is well known that in diabetic patients 2 h plasma glucose is a better risk predictor for coronary heart disease than fasting plasma glucose. Data on the glycemic response in healthy...

nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com

See fig 2. Normal people aren't always below 140, but judging by the results of this paper and others like this, blood sugar above is more of an exception than a rule, it seems. So, if I try to keep it under 140 at all times, the few times I'll elope won't be a disaster, since most times I'm "good".

It seems that blood sugar above 140 can already cause damage (see references in the blood sugar 101 book).

I'm not claiming other people should do the same. I'm just saying what I try to do.

I was curious to know if after following the Newcastle diet you could eat foods like lentils, beans and chickpeas and still keep your postprandial below 140.

 

[BeeBusy]

Can I just hop in to this discussion to say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with going above 140 mg/dl (7.8 mmol/l) from time to time - non-diabetics do so routinely.

To the extent that this level us any kjnd of an issue, it is only in the context of 2 hours after eating, not some brief spike on a shorter time frame. But it is hardly an issue even then, if yr HbA1c is "normal".

If you're getting contrary advice somewhere - eg that 140 mg/dl is a bad level even if it's just briefly, a few minutes after eating - just ignore it. The person is either a charlatan or clueless.

I agree with you.

Aiming for 140, the times I go above are exceptions. I just won't make a rule of going above. If I eat something that makes my blood sugar go above, then I'll avoid that food, because I don't want it to be my rule. I'll still have it sometimes. For instance, I do eat cake at parties, but only at parties, since they don't happen every week.

Yes, there are lots of charlatans and fearmongering. It's distasteful! As if we needed exaggeration to make as feel bad!

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I see. Unfortunately, if I'd trust the mirror, I wouldn't diet at all. I've never been overweight, nor obese. I want to get rid of invisible visceral fat that I'm assuming I must have, based on Dr Taylor's book.

As for the 140, that comes from reading books like blood sugar 101 and papers such as this:

Postprandial glycemic response in a non-diabetic adult population: the effect of nutrients is different between men and women - Nutrition & Metabolism

Background There is a growing interest in the pathopysiological consequences of postprandial hyperglycemia. It is well known that in diabetic patients 2 h plasma glucose is a better risk predictor for coronary heart disease than fasting plasma glucose. Data on the glycemic response in healthy...

nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com

See fig 2. Normal people aren't always below 140, but judging by the results of this paper and others like this, blood sugar above is more of an exception than a rule, it seems. So, if I try to keep it under 140 at all times, the few times I'll elope won't be a disaster, since most times I'm "good".

It seems that blood sugar above 140 can already cause damage (see references in the blood sugar 101 book).

I'm not claiming other people should do the same. I'm just saying what I try to do.

I was curious to know if after following the Newcastle diet you could eat foods like lentils, beans and chickpeas and still keep your postprandial below 140.

Second line in your paper.

"It is well known that in diabetic patients 2 h plasma glucose is a better risk predictor"

 

[BeeBusy]

Second line in your paper.

"It is well known that in diabetic patients 2 h plasma glucose is a better risk predictor"

Yes, for coronary disease. The complete phrase is "It is well known that in diabetic patients 2 h plasma glucose is a better risk predictor for coronary heart disease than fasting plasma glucose."

Later in the same paper, it is written: "The percentage of values over the range of normal glycemia (> 140 mg/dL) in the postprandial period analyzed (6 h) was 9.7% in women and 7.1% in men."

So, normal postprandial glycemia for the first 6h after a meal is inferior or equal to 140 mg/dL following this paper. Normal people go above that but in the sample studied, only 9.7% of the time for women.

I want to keep my glycemia as close to normal as possible. I aim low, knowing accidents may happen.

Again, that's what I aim for. I'm not saying other people should do the same. Every person has to decide for him-herself.

I was just asking if after the Newcastle diet blood sugar behaved as for normal people. It was just a question.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Yes, for coronary disease. The complete phrase is "It is well known that in diabetic patients 2 h plasma glucose is a better risk predictor for coronary heart disease than fasting plasma glucose."

Later in the same paper, it is written: "The percentage of values over the range of normal glycemia (> 140 mg/dL) in the postprandial period analyzed (6 h) was 9.7% in women and 7.1% in men."

So, normal postprandial glycemia for the first 6h after a meal is inferior or equal to 140 mg/dL following this paper. Normal people go above that but in the sample studied, only 9.7% of the time for women.

I want to keep my glycemia as close to normal as possible. I aim low, knowing accidents may happen.

Again, that's what I aim for. I'm not saying other people should do the same. Every person has to decide for him-herself.

I was just asking if after the Newcastle diet blood sugar behaved as for normal people. It was just a question.

My point exactly.
Ten percent over 140 at 2 hours is normal.
Nailing it down to 0 percent at 1 hour is worrying to me.
So, I guess or depends on what "normal" is to the individual, to answer your question.

 

[Kreator]

Yes, for coronary disease. The complete phrase is "It is well known that in diabetic patients 2 h plasma glucose is a better risk predictor for coronary heart disease than fasting plasma glucose."

Later in the same paper, it is written: "The percentage of values over the range of normal glycemia (> 140 mg/dL) in the postprandial period analyzed (6 h) was 9.7% in women and 7.1% in men."

So, normal postprandial glycemia for the first 6h after a meal is inferior or equal to 140 mg/dL following this paper. Normal people go above that but in the sample studied, only 9.7% of the time for women.

I want to keep my glycemia as close to normal as possible. I aim low, knowing accidents may happen.

Again, that's what I aim for. I'm not saying other people should do the same. Every person has to decide for him-herself.

I was just asking if after the Newcastle diet blood sugar behaved as for normal people. It was just a question.

Hi,

It may be helpful if you came from this at a slightly different angle

This is very simplistic and in no way scientific!;

Non Diabetic = your body reglates Blood Glucose and sorts itself out like a thermostat

Too Hot and Insulin kicks in to cool your Blood Glocose down

Too Cold and the Liver kicks in and produces Glucose to heat it up

At Risk Of Diabetes Type 2

The same happens but this time Insulin is having less of an effect but still manages to cool you down at an increasingly slower rate the more Insulin Resistant you become

Diabetes Type 2

The same happens but this time no matter how much insulin is produced it has a lesser and lesser effect as time goes on

Blood Glucose levels are affected in many ways, stress, exercise, what you've eaten or drunk, which makes it impossible to have a perfect score every time...

I certainly don't and never have 'Aimed' for a certain level - it is what it is - the main thing is 'Trends over Time' rather than an individual reading - Readings anyway can be 'off' sometimes too...

I'd advise to use it as a tool to learn what food sets you 'high' rather than chasing a certain level everytime...

I actually found it enjoyable finding a 'high' as it meant ...Ah, lets not choose that for a while or have a smaller portion...(If you're Diabetic that is)...

The Newcastle Diet in terms of T2D itself is intended as a weight loss tool initially which is intended to remove Visceral Fat (Around the Liver & Pancreas) so that both can effectively start working again...once everything is working again, generally you can tolerate Carbs again as your body deals with it - the difference for most of us is that we have found different / healthier ways of eating as what we were eating before led us to T2D in the first place....

 

[BeeBusy]

My point exactly.
Ten percent over 140 at 2 hours is normal.
Nailing it down to 0 percent at 1 hour is worrying to me.
So, I guess or depends on what "normal" is to the individual, to answer your question.

I agree. We're free to set our own goals based on what we think we can realistically do.

At the moment, what I call normal for myself is:
1) fasting blood glucose below 100 mg/dL;
2) postprandial blood sugar *peak* <= 140 mg/dL at least 90% of my meals;
3) HbA1c <= 5.6% (I think it's 37.7 mmol/mol).

I'm hoping getting rid of visceral fat will help with that.

If I can't reach this, I'll adapt my goals. If I can consistently get 1 and 3, I'm already super happy. 2 is a bonus.

 

[BeeBusy]

Hi,

It may be helpful if you came from this at a slightly different angle

This is very simplistic and in no way scientific!;

Non Diabetic = your body reglates Blood Glucose and sorts itself out like a thermostat

Too Hot and Insulin kicks in to cool your Blood Glocose down

Too Cold and the Liver kicks in and produces Glucose to heat it up

At Risk Of Diabetes Type 2

The same happens but this time Insulin is having less of an effect but still manages to cool you down at an increasingly slower rate the more Insulin Resistant you become

Diabetes Type 2

The same happens but this time no matter how much insulin is produced it has a lesser and lesser effect as time goes on

Blood Glucose levels are affected in many ways, stress, exercise, what you've eaten or drunk, which makes it impossible to have a perfect score every time...

I certainly don't and never have 'Aimed' for a certain level - it is what it is - the main thing is 'Trends over Time' rather than an individual reading - Readings anyway can be 'off' sometimes too...

I'd advise to use it as a tool to learn what food sets you 'high' rather than chasing a certain level everytime...

I actually found it enjoyable finding a 'high' as it meant ...Ah, lets not choose that for a while or have a smaller portion...(If you're Diabetic that is)...

The Newcastle Diet in terms of T2D itself is intended as a weight loss tool initially which is intended to remove Visceral Fat (Around the Liver & Pancreas) so that both can effectively start working again...once everything is working again, generally you can tolerate Carbs again as your body deals with it - the difference for most of us is that we have found different / healthier ways of eating as what we were eating before led us to T2D in the first place....

Yes. I'm not pro diets just to lose weight. I know people who are fat and healthier than myself. They're perfect as they are. Different genes.

For me, it needs to be more than just losing weight. In this case, the aim of the diet is to let the liver and pancreas do their job, as you say, once you rid them of all the visceral fat, or at least a good chunk of it.

Therefore, tolerate carbs.

Perhaps I come across as someone trying to find a way to gorge on cakes and breads. I'm not like this. I eat healthy.

However: we need to get energy from food. If we don't touch the amount of proteins, we have to manage that energy from fats and carbs. At the moment, I'm having to go more for fats, because I'm more carb intolerant than a normal person. What I'm trying to find out is if losing visceral fat, people could eat more carbs than before.

Not so that I do it and eat tons of cakes, pasta and bread. But I would like to eat more plant based proteins and replace some of the fat with carbs. More than what I can do now. Why? Because I prefer the taste of lentils and chickpeas than that of steak, or chicken, or shrimps, etc. Also, fats raised my cholesterol. I know now people say that high cholesterol is fine. Perhaps it is. But I still don't want mine to be high.

Therefore, I was trying to find out if people who were successful with the Newcastle diet found out they now can tolerate more carbs than before. In my mind, there isn't such a thing as a stupid question. So, I just asked my questions.

I apologize for asking the question and I'm moving on to other parts of the forum, so as not to hijack the thread anymore.