Minimed 780G who’s got one?

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I would say I’m a good 90% these days, I don’t really remember how bad I felt before the pump anymore but some days were a real struggle
So here a revision to my prior estimate:

CEA of MDI, PUMP & AI - nominal figures, back of a fag packet

Costs £,2020MDiPump no SensorAI closed loop
Fixed costsPen injector
2x£100 =200
35403540
Recurrent Costs
£ pa
Needles50nana
Insulin long acting
Determir £42/1500U
20U day
204nana
Insulin short
acting
Humalog
(£28/1000, 3ml vial, 20u/day)
146
£16/1000, 10ml vial, 40U/day)
234
£16/1000, 10ml vial, 40U/day)
234
Canulana(3 days duration £9.80 each)

1192
1830
Reservoir(£2.90each, 3 days dur)

353
(Part of 1830)
CGMnana2685
Test strips £15/50,
6/day
657657na
Glucagon
£11.52 each
(4 pa)
46
(2 pa)
23
(0.25 pa)

2.88
Visits £250est/ visit(2 visits A&E pa, est)
500
(2 *£125 paramed visits)

250
(0.25 *£125 paramed visits pa)

31.25
O’n hospitalisatn £1600/pn(1/pa)
1600
(0 est)(0 est)
Consultancy fees
£250 per visit est
Diabetes &opthamology
(2*2 xpa, est)
1000 est
(2*2 xpa, est)
1000 est
(1 of each pa est)
500 est
One Off £20035403540
Recurrent £ pa420337085293
Life Years est455055
Lifetime cost0.1891M0.1889M0.294M
QALYs pa0.740.740.9
Lifetime QALYs from diagnosis to death33.33749.5
Table 1: Cost and Effect Inputs ~indicative

Analysis

Lifetime incremental Costincremental
QALY
incremental
Yrs
(Possible) Decision
Pump vs MDI-£2003.75
Pump dominates MDIPump dominates MDIUse pump over MDI
AI vs MDI£10400016.210
Incr £/QALY ratio
£6420/QALY
Incr £/LY ratio
£10400/LY
Nominal values would support use of AI over MDI
AI vs Pump£10510012.55
Incr £/QALY ratio
£8408/QALY
Incr £/LY ratio
£21020/LY
Nominal values support use of AI rather than pump no sensor re QALY but not re clinical outcomes incremental LY ratio due to the lower nominally expected LY gain of AI over a pump(5 yr increment) vs AI over MDI(10 yr increment.
Additional data may better support use of AI including for comorbidities of T1D.

Table 2: Analysis Incremental Cost, QALYs and Survival

Utility information
where QALYs= utilty x time
Baseline (MDI) quality of life in UK: 0.75; https://hqlo.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12955-015-0396-0
De Souza et al 2015. Health-related quality of life in people with type 1 Diabetes Mellitus: data from the Brazilian Type 1 Diabetes Study Group
Quality of Life Pump:0.75; various reports indicate no sig diff between pump & MDI
Eg https://academic.oup.com/jpepsy/article/31/6/650/899719, which reports HRQOL generic 0.79 and HRQOL disease spec 0.69, 0.74 was used a mean value, noting these values found in children in the US so UK adults may differ
Quality AI: 0.9; ltd info availability, AI user input used, sample of 1…

Costs were drawn from published data (BNF) where possible or otherwise estimated e.g. hospital visit fees. Quality of life was taken from publications, noting values for pump use were derived from a study on children in the US so may not be representative of UK adult values. AI qol is from a subject matter expert, an AI system user. Survival data are purely estimated based on nominal assumption. This would need checking against published data.


Interpretation
With the incremental cost effectiveness ratios (ICERs), see table, the lower values in the table, the more cost effective the item is either by producing more effect and or lower costs than to whats its compared. For example at the bottom of table, lifetime cost for pumps is expected to marginally lower than for MDI giving a better ie lower ICER ratio that is, if the value in this estimate represented real life, pumps would be more cost- and clinically effective than MDI.

But what of AI systems, such as but necessarily ltd to T1slim or Minimed 670, to MDI? The ICER for AI vs MDI is £6420/QALY, so not as cost-effective as the pump. Furthermore ai has a yet worse cost-effectiveness ratio at £8408/QALY for AI vs pump without sensor technology.
However these estimate are based on crude assumptions or nominal rather than real values, so real data may tell a diff story.

Clinical outcomes showed more variation. Estimated incremental cost/ life year were better value ie lower for the pump than MDI(ai use was predicted to be associated with lower cost, more life years) i.e. the pump dominated MDI, then AI vs MDI £10400/ extra year, than AI vs pump £21020/ extra year of life. The higher ie worse AI vs pump clinical effectiveness ratio is a product of an estimated smaller additional length of life of ai over a pump user (5 yrs) vs ai over MDI users (10 yrs). These estimates are purely nominal and real world data may vary. However user input on quality of life shows a marked improvement of ai over publ QALYs for pump no sensor or mdi. For a chronic disease, a lifetime average improved quality lends weight to the use of such a technology as ai, as indeed the incremental cost-effectiveness ratio estimate indicates.

Long term t1D morbidities’ effects and costs e.g. from haemodialysis, sight loss etc have not been included here. However as worse control would be expected with non-closed loop AI regulated management of t1d e.g. the pump no sensor or pump open loop and MDI, non-AI treatment would have higher ie worse incremental cost and clinical effectiveness ratios, supporting the use of closed loop AI systems if they indeed prove to provide high quality of life to patients and longer survival without excessive extra cost. Time will tell.

So there may be some hope perhaps depending on the figures from real studies and trials. More data will help clarify the score.
 
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So here a revision to my prior estimate:

CEA of MDI, PUMP & AI - nominal figures, back of a fag packet

Costs £,2020MDiPump no SensorAI closed loop
Fixed costsPen injector
2x£100 =200
35403540
Recurrent Costs £ pa
Needles50nana
Insulin long acting
Determir £42/1500U
20U day
204nana
Insulin short acting
Humalog£42/1500U
(£28/1000, 3ml vial, 20u/day)
146
£16/1000, 10ml vial, 40U/day)
234
£16/1000, 10ml vial, 40U/day)
234
Canulana(3 days duration £9.80 each)

1192
1830
Reservoir(£2.90each, 3 days dur)

353
(Part of 1830)
CGMnana2685
Test strips £15/50,
6/day
657657na
Glucagon
£11.52 each
(4 pa)
46
(2 pa)
23
(0.25 pa)

2.88
Visits £250est/ visit(2 visits A&E pa, est)
500
(2 *£125 paramed visits)

250
(0.25 *£125 paramed visits pa)

31.25
O’n hospitalisation £1600/pn(1/pa)
1600
(0 est)(0 est)
Consultancy fees
£250 per visit est
Diabetes &opthamology
(2*2 xpa, est)
1000 est
(2*2 xpa, est)
1000 est
(1 of each pa est)
500 est
One Off £20035403540
Recurrent £ pa420337085293
Life Years est455055
Lifetime cost0.1891M0.1889M0.294M
QALYs pa0.740.740.9
Lifetime QALYs from diagnosis to death33.33749.5
Table 1: Cost and Effect Inputs ~indicative

Analysis

Lifetime IncrementCostQALYYrs(Possible) Decision
Pump vs MDI-£2003.75
Pump dominates MDIPump dominates MDIUse pump over MDI
AI vs MDI£10400016.210
Incr £/QALY ratio
£6420/QALY
Incr £/LY ratio
£10400/LY
Nominal values would support use of AI over MDI
AI vs Pump£10510012.55
Incr £/QALY ratio
£8408/QALY
Incr £/LY ratio
£21020/LY
Nominal values support use of AI rather than pump no sensor re QALY but not re clinical outcomes incremental LY ratio due to the lower nominally expected LY gain of AI over a pump(5 yr increment) vs AI over MDI(10 yr increment.
Additional data may better support use of AI including for comorbidities of T1D.

Table 2: Analysis Incremental Cost, QALYs and Survival

Utility information
Baseline (MDI) quality of life in UK: 0.75; https://hqlo.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12955-015-0396-0
De Souza et al 2015. Health-related quality of life in people with type 1 Diabetes Mellitus: data from the Brazilian Type 1 Diabetes Study Group
Quality of Life Pump:0.75; various reports indicate no sig diff between pump & MDI
Eg https://academic.oup.com/jpepsy/article/31/6/650/899719, which reports HRQOL generic 0.79 and HRQOL disease spec 0.69, 0.74 was used a median value, noting these values found in children in the US so UK adults may differ
Quality AI: 0.9; ltd info availability, AI user input used, sample of 1…

Costs were drawn from published data (BNF) where possible or otherwise estimated e.g. hospital visit fees. Quality of life was taken from publications, noting values for pump use were derived from a study on children in the US so may not be representative of UK adult values. AI qol is from a subject matter expert, an AI system user. Survival data are purely estimated based on nominal assumption. This would need checking against published data.


Interpretation
With the incremental cost effectiveness ratios (ICERs), see table, the lower values in the table, the more cost effective the item is either by producing more effect than whats its compared to and/ or by having lower costs than compared to. For example at the bottom of table, lifetime cost for pumps is expected to marginally lower than for MDI giving a better ie lower ICER ratio that is, if the value in this estimate represented real life, pumps would be more cost- and clinically effective than MDI.

But what of AI systems, such as but necessarily ltd to T1slim or Minimed 670, to MDI? The ICER for AI vs MDI is £6420/QALY, so not as cost-effective as the pump. Furthermore ai has a yet wrose cost-effectiveness ratio at £8408/QALY for AI vs pump without sensor technology.
However these estimate are based on crude assumptions or nominal rather than real values, so real data may tell a diff story.

Clinical outcomes showed more variation. Estimated incremental cost/ life year were better value ie lower for the pump than MDI(ai use was predicted to be associated with lower cost, more life years) i.e. the pump dominated MDI, then AI vs MDI £10400/ extra year, than AI vs pump £21020/ extra year of life. The higher ie worse AI vs pump clinical effectiveness ratio is a product of an estimated smaller additional length of life of ai over a pump user (5 yrs) vs ai over MDI users (10 yrs). These estimates are purely nominal and real world data may better or worse support the use of ai. However user input ion quality of life shows a marked improvement of ai over pump no sensor or mdi. For a chronic disease, a lifetime of improved quality lends weight to the use of such a technology as ai, as indeed the incremental cost-effectiveness ratio estimate indicates.

Long term t1D morbidities’ effects and costs e.g. from haemodialysis, sight loss etc have not been included here. However as worse control would be expected with non-closed loop AI regulated management of t1d e.g. the pump no sensor or pump open loop and MDI, non-AI treatment would have higher ie worse incremental cost and clinical effectiveness ratios, supporting the use of closed loop AI systems if they indeed prove to provide high quality of life to patients and longer survival without excessive extra cost. Time will tell.

So there may be some hope perhaps depending on the figures from real studies and trials. More data will help clarify the score.
Well I’m pretty impressed with that analysis, you have too much time on your hands and you should be full time lobbying the powers that be to asses all T1’s and T2’s where applicable for full CGM closed loop systems especially for the young where the long term benefits would be significant
 
Interesting work @daducky88 🙂 🙂 🙂

When I was a lay member on the Guideline Development Group for CG15 (which published in 2015) there was a novel cost effectiveness analysis for QALYs and ICERs between CGM and various intensities of SMBG (which have may have been part of the evidence that underpinned the ‘8 strips a day’ Libre limit?)

At the time the clinical evidence of effectiveness for CGM was not as compelling as I believe it has become since, and I very much suspect that CGM and hybrid closed loop will be getting a thorough looking at as they are updating the T1 guidance again at the moment

 
Well i'm on the hunt for a job at the min or to use the euphemism, between contracts.
And in between times trying teach myself some skills in writing algorithms.
 
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But my table is really a quick and dirty indication, more a process chart. There's a loft hefty work required to statistically meaningfully search, clean, combine, extrapolate trials' data to get a representative set of figures for the UK diab pop. I imagine most of the relevant manufs have ongoing followups in trials progressing and nice is in discussion with review teams.
 
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Well i'm on the hunt for a job at the min or to use the euphemism, between contracts.
And in between times trying teach myself some skills in writing algorithms though i'm not a mathematician, unfortunately.

I had to leave my old career of immunology and my ambition to derive a vaccine against t1d for which i made some tentative progress thru jobs in dff labs across Europe. Unlike other labs at the time chasing their favourite candidate antigen or using animal models with liberal activatiin requirements leading to a high false positive rate and an equal oublication rate, my work on only more tightly immune regulated human T cells showed the pleitropism of receptor specificity eg receptors can recognise up to 30 structurally different ligands, and dealt with receptor screening on a 10^15 scale rather than the 10^6 libraries most places were then using. Later i headed a lab to develop a new class of tolerisation vaccine ie change imm resp from Th1 to Th2. But undiagnosed addisons gave me a hypo a night for half a year and borderline hypo the rest of the time with very poor medical support despite numerous visits to hospitals. I decided to go home. My then wife insisted i go to hospital where King's College London diagnosed me 🙂
 
Well i'm on the hunt for a job at the min or to use the euphemism, between contracts.
And in between times trying teach myself some skills in writing algorithms though i'm not a mathematician, unfortunately.

I had to leave my old career of immunology and my ambition to derive a vaccine against t1d for which i made some tentative progress thru jobs in dff labs across Europe. Unlike other labs at the time chasing their favourite candidate antigen, my work showed the pleitropism of receptor specificity eg receptors can recognise up to 30 structurally different ligands, and dealt with receptor screening on a 10^15 scale rather than the 10^6 libraries most places were then using. Later i headed a lab to develop a new class of tolerisation vaccine ie change imm resp from Th1 to Th2. But undiagnosed addisons gave me a hypo a night for half a year and borderline hypo the rest of the time with very poor medical support despite numerous visits to hospitals. I decided to go home. My then wife insisted i go to hospital where King's College London diagnosed me
Interesting work @daducky88 🙂 🙂 🙂

When I was a lay member on the Guideline Development Group for CG15 (which published in 2015) there was a novel cost effectiveness analysis for QALYs and ICERs between CGM and various intensities of SMBG (which have may have been part of the evidence that underpinned the ‘8 strips a day’ Libre limit?)

At the time the clinical evidence of effectiveness for CGM was not as compelling as I believe it has become since, and I very much suspect that CGM and hybrid closed loop will be getting a thorough looking at as they are updating the T1 guidance again at the moment

Interesting work @daducky88 🙂 🙂 🙂

When I was a lay member on the Guideline Development Group for CG15 (which published in 2015) there was a novel cost effectiveness analysis for QALYs and ICERs between CGM and various intensities of SMBG (which have may have been part of the evidence that underpinned the ‘8 strips a day’ Libre limit?)

At the time the clinical evidence of effectiveness for CGM was not as compelling as I believe it has become since, and I very much suspect that CGM and hybrid closed loop will be getting a thorough looking at as they are updating the T1 guidance again at the moment


That must have been interesting Mike. How did you get selected ?

I supoose there's an unresolved of question whats a fair or adequate comparator in these sort of trials, complicated by Gov rationing by severity to limit expenditure, a systematic bias against raising the quality of life of the maximum.number of people in place of lifting by a greater amount a small n of people. Accordingly cherrying picking controls may not be representative of the f of diff management approaches for T1D in England. I imagine in numbers, by NHS funding:
mdi> pump no sensor> pump +sensor >ai
 
That must have been interesting Mike. How did you get selected ?

It was! Very. There were 2 ‘lay” members of the group, and everyone was given an equal voice.

I think someone on a forum mentioned it. :D

The NICE website has sections for guideline in development, and also publishes guidelines which are being planned. NICE has a thorough PPI (patient and public involvement) initiative, which publishes opportunities to get involved.

Then you need to put in an application and see whether you seem to fit the project 🙂
 
Well I’m pretty impressed with that analysis, you have too much time on your hands and you should be full time lobbying the powers that be to asses all T1’s and T2’s where applicable for full CGM closed loop systems especially for the young where the long term benefits would be significant
Cheers Paul, thats my profession
Well I’m pretty impressed with that analysis, you have too much time on your hands and you should be full time lobbying the powers that be to asses all T1’s and T2’s where applicable for full CGM closed loop systems especially for the young where the long term benefits would be significant
 
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