How to "cure" type 2 diabetes without medication

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Gwynn said:
Now THAT is interesting. I always thought it was just about carbs. But now there is a new model - fat threshold. Intriguing and seems to fit. I will continue my diet control going forwards. Not sure if I will risk increasing the carbs (fear) though. However, my own experiments with increased carb meals seem to reflect the new model well as I don't seem to now get any adverse reaction no matter how many carbs I consume.

So its not a cure just the body shifting back into normal gear.

I will experiment some more possibly.

Very helpful.
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Fantastic weight loss & A1c reduction - well done!
 
Gwynn said:
Now THAT is interesting. I always thought it was just about carbs. But now there is a new model - fat threshold. Intriguing and seems to fit. I will continue my diet control going forwards. Not sure if I will risk increasing the carbs (fear) though. However, my own experiments with increased carb meals seem to reflect the new model well as I don't seem to now get any adverse reaction no matter how many carbs I consume.

So its not a cure just the body shifting back into normal gear.

I will experiment some more possibly.

Very helpful.
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Yes those are brilliant results.
I must admit, I did experiment, I ate a massive load of carbs after I shed my weight and returned to a normal BG.
No effect on my meter readings.
 
travellor said:
I can't say I've greatly found that is an exact science.
I lost around 30kg to achieve a cure.
I have put weight back on, I did look I'll at that weight, although it was a good BMI.
I did have a heavy frame.
I have put weight back on, especially with lockdown and limited gym time.
So there is some hysteresis in the model it seems.
Possibly internal fat is last off, and last on?
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Could be? I'm sure there's lots more to learn.

I get lost about 10kg to get to reversal, I think. Then I kept going to lose another 5kg just because I could & because I found I like being skinny 🙂 I've put back a kg or so since giving up vaping but hopefully I can keep a lid on it.
 
travellor said:
I can't say I've greatly found that is an exact science.
I lost around 30kg to achieve a cure.
I have put weight back on, I did look ill at that weight, although it was a good BMI.
I did have a heavy frame.
I have put weight back on, especially with lockdown and limited gym time.
So there is some hysteresis in the model it seems.
Possibly internal fat is last off, and last on?
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My understanding is that visceral fat (I assume that it what you meant by internal) was actually the first to be lost when losing weight. But, I could easily be wrong.
 
I have arranged a more recent test to check my HbA1c as the last one was taken over a year ago but based on my historical data, it seems to suggest that BMI or a personal fat threshold does not regulate or affect my blood glucose readings. I have not been on any diabetes medication for nearly five years and never been on any diet. I will publish all data when bloods have been taken and I have the results. In the meantime, let me list below my weights and measurements and see if you can guess as to when I was diagnosed with type 2 and at what stage did my HbA1c started falling to normal range?

Weights and measurements

Date. Weight. Waist. BMI. Height.

Jan 20: 65kg. 82cm. 24.0 164cm

Nov 17: 66kg. 81cm. 24.5

Dec 16: 66kg. 88cm. 24.5

Feb 13: 66kg. 85cm. 23.10
 
I have just started reading Professor Taylors book and along with other authors on diabetes 2 it will add to my knowledge of the subject that I have been unable to glean from my NHS Doctor.
It has take me two years to understand and practise the basics and principals and I am always learning.
I try to compare and balance all reading material which is fairly new to the medical world otherwise where are you going to find out about your diagnosis if the docs don't know the ins and outs.
I take info. from you guys too. It is a general mix of common sense and a journey of self discovery.
Happy Mondays to everyone. I like Mondays cos I am glad when Sunday's over.
 
Swilko said:
I have arranged a more recent test to check my HbA1c as the last one was taken over a year ago but based on my historical data, it seems to suggest that BMI or a personal fat threshold does not regulate or affect my blood glucose readings. I have not been on any diabetes medication for nearly five years and never been on any diet. I will publish all data when bloods have been taken and I have the results. In the meantime, let me list below my weights and measurements and see if you can guess as to when I was diagnosed with type 2 and at what stage did my HbA1c started falling to normal range?

Weights and measurements

Date. Weight. Waist. BMI. Height.

Jan 20: 65kg. 82cm. 24.0 164cm

Nov 17: 66kg. 81cm. 24.5

Dec 16: 66kg. 88cm. 24.5

Feb 13: 66kg. 85cm. 23.10
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To check then,
your BG went up, you were diagnosed as diabetic and medicated.
Then with no intervention, no loss of weight, no change to your diet or eating pattern or types of food, your BG dropped into a normal range and you stopped all medication?
So you are eating exactly the same at each point in your results?
2017?
 
I would like to see some research into this theory about "personal fat thresholds".
In particular, can he prove it or is this just an idea about what is causing the problem?

Some sort of test or scan which can show that a thin person is "fat on the inside" would be much more persuasive to the general scientific and medical community alongside tests showing how that fat could be increased or reduced to induce or reverse diabetes at will, like a switch. That last test in particular would be the smoking gun required for widespread acceptance that this scientist is correct.

Maybe this has already been done.

ETA. That article headline is deeply irresponsible. If I was that scientist, I'd be issuing a statement clarifying that he is not advocating that he can cure type 2 diabetes. It's waaaaaay too early for any credible scientist to be making that sort of statement.
 
pm133 said:
I would like to see some research into this theory about "personal fat thresholds".
In particular, can he prove it or is this just an idea about what is causing the problem?

Some sort of test or scan which can show that a thin person is "fat on the inside" would be much more persuasive to the general scientific and medical community alongside tests showing how that fat could be increased or reduced to induce or reverse diabetes at will, like a switch. That last test in particular would be the smoking gun required for widespread acceptance that this scientist is correct.

Maybe this has already been done.

ETA. That article headline is deeply irresponsible. If I was that scientist, I'd be issuing a statement clarifying that he is not advocating that he can cure type 2 diabetes. It's waaaaaay too early for any credible scientist to be making that sort of statement.
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Check Taylor et al's publications at https://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#scientificinformation

I think the PFT thing counts at the moment as a hypothesis with a good amount of clinical support but it's an active area of research.
 
pm133 said:
I would like to see some research into this theory about "personal fat thresholds".
In particular, can he prove it or is this just an idea about what is causing the problem?

Some sort of test or scan which can show that a thin person is "fat on the inside" would be much more persuasive to the general scientific and medical community alongside tests showing how that fat could be increased or reduced to induce or reverse diabetes at will, like a switch. That last test in particular would be the smoking gun required for widespread acceptance that this scientist is correct.

Maybe this has already been done.

ETA. That article headline is deeply irresponsible. If I was that scientist, I'd be issuing a statement clarifying that he is not advocating that he can cure type 2 diabetes. It's waaaaaay too early for any credible scientist to be making that sort of statement.
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Personally, I didn't need to see any proof before I tried it.
What is there to lose by losing excess body fat?
As a bonus, being no longer diabetic was a pleasant result though.
It's also considered unethical to actually induce diabetes in an otherwise non-diabetic person, so probably the proof won't be forthcoming.

As to terminology, what is the definition of "cure"?
As a philosophical argument, is there ever anything which can be "cured".
If you break your leg, and spend weeks in a cast until it is recovered, is it cured, as you can always break it again?
Is the unbroken one still "uncured", as you could equally break that in the same set of circumstances.
 
I know thinnish people with diabetes 2. He seems to pinpoint the weight you are now compared to the weight you were in your younger days. If you look at old pics hardly any one was fat. It is a tricky one.
 
Martin.A said:
If a T2 diagnosis means that we have what is essentially a decline in pancreatic function then on the basis that it's considered to be a progressive illness (which seems to be the view in lots of what I've read) even losing weight, changing our diet and bringing our BG down into normal range means that eventually our gradually-declining pancreas will find even that to be too much for it. What we don't know is what each person's grace period is before further adjustments to diet are required, followed by medication (possibly actually going back on it) and ultimately insulin. This is why, I think, they say there is no cure.
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The main "new thing" claimed by Taylor is that T2D isn't necessarily progressive, because it doesn't mean that pancreatic function necessarily declines over time. Rather, fat build up in the pancreas suppresses beta cell activity; if the fat is removed before things have gone too far, beta cell function restarts. There are a series of papers setting out the imaging etc results from the trials supporting this position.
 
Martin.A said:
If a T2 diagnosis means that we have what is essentially a decline in pancreatic function then on the basis that it's considered to be a progressive illness (which seems to be the view in lots of what I've read) even losing weight, changing our diet and bringing our BG down into normal range means that eventually our gradually-declining pancreas will find even that to be too much for it. What we don't know is what each person's grace period is before further adjustments to diet are required, followed by medication (possibly actually going back on it) and ultimately insulin. This is why, I think, they say there is no cure.
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Just because some/most health care professionals see it that way, doesn't make it so. If they gave people appropriate advice, tools and support to reverse it then there is a good chance that it would not be progressive. The problem is that many people don't change their lifestyle and eating habits or are not given the right information to do so and therefore eventually their pancreas runs dry from overwork. There will also be a lot of misdiagnosed Type1/LADA patients who will obviously go on to require insulin which may well cloud the data for it being progressive.
 
Eddy Edson said:
The main "new thing" claimed by Taylor is that T2D isn't necessarily progressive, because it doesn't mean that pancreatic function necessarily declines over time. Rather, fat build up in the pancreas suppresses beta cell activity; if the fat is removed before things have gone too far, beta cell function restarts. There are a series of papers setting out the imaging etc results from the trials supporting this position.
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It's also a low level of fat from his research.
I have a personal interest in the actual mechanism that removes fat. Eg, is there any aid given by speed of loss, and whether the islets are aided by insulin flushing, in which case the actual diet is significant.
Hopefully this will be better understood in the future.
 
Basically Taylor is saying that everyone has a Personal Fat Threshold mainly determined by the genes controlling how much fat we can store safely under the skin. Type 2 therefore is not caused by obesity.
Stop/go for type 2 is inside your beta cells which may or may not be susceptible to the bad effects of excess fat.
Halfway thru the book and nowhere has he mentioned a 'cure'. It is an interesting read.
 
From personal observation, I no longer subscribe to the theory that everyone has a set weight that they gravitate to. I have spent considerable periods of time (years) at different weights over the past 25 years: 12st, 15st7, 17st7, 18st10, 19st7. 17st.
 
Interesting. I have had 'set weights' too, 18 3, 17 4 for years and years, 16 4ish, 15 4 for decades and now I'm trying to get under 14stones.
 
travellor said:
Personally, I didn't need to see any proof before I tried it.
What is there to lose by losing excess body fat?
As a bonus, being no longer diabetic was a pleasant result though.
It's also considered unethical to actually induce diabetes in an otherwise non-diabetic person, so probably the proof won't be forthcoming.

As to terminology, what is the definition of "cure"?
As a philosophical argument, is there ever anything which can be "cured".
If you break your leg, and spend weeks in a cast until it is recovered, is it cured, as you can always break it again?
Is the unbroken one still "uncured", as you could equally break that in the same set of circumstances.
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To answer your first part, the problem with the dieting world in general is that in amongst the good advice, that world is full of snake oil salesmen promoting nonsense. Some of it dangerous. Almost none of it with any peer-reviewed scientific evidence to back it up. So the scientist in me is very much against the "what have you got to lose" argument on that basis. A second issue is less to do with losing weight and more to do with what happens when you lose that weight. Many people put the weight straight back on again because the diet has failed to fix the underlying problem and has dealt only with the symptom. The effect on the person who suffers this can be catastrophic, both mentally and physically.

To answer your second part, I wouldn't use the word "cure" to describe a healed broken leg. I would use the word "fixed" or "repaired". I would reserve the word "cure" to describe the the permanent removal of a disease from the body. That doesn't mean you can't catch the disease again from other sources. There seems to be a willingness to conflate the words "remission" and "cure". The problem is that those words have different effects on the psyche of the person receiving that news and that can be highly damaging both on the mental state of the person if the disease returns and also on the speed of which that disease returns. To make matters even more confusing, we're seeing people conflate the word "remission" with the phrase "blood glucose under control without medication" and we're seeing other people (usually new diabetics) struggling to understand what is going on.

These words and phrases have different medical meanings and we probably ought to be using them in the correct context.

I have to say though that people can call things whatever they want because none of it affects me. I have my view, but I'm not about to start a crusade over it. 🙂
 
rebrascora said:
Just because some/most health care professionals see it that way, doesn't make it so. If they gave people appropriate advice, tools and support to reverse it then there is a good chance that it would not be progressive.
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Yes but this claim has to be based on something. If it's not coming from science then where is it coming from? Or are you differentiating between science and health care professionals?
 
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