Covid-19 response

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It was just that the first one caused me to be very unwell indeed - fever, swollen legs and feet, coughing, swollen glands in my neck, headache, the area around the injection site was swollen and painful so I could not lie on my side to sleep. It took about a month to recover.
The second jab - nothing. I went with my husband and I said how concerned I was about having another jab - I was persuaded that it was essential - my husband had already been injected. The syringe used for his injection came from a tray on the table, the syringe used for mine was on a tray on the desk beside the computer being used to keep records. The batch number on our cards is the same, I had absolutely no reaction to the jab and I caught Covid soon afterwards. I seemed to have Covid whenever I was called for a jab after that and as it was so mild I did not feel at all troubled.
I realise being very unwell must have been worrying and unpleasant. I presume you excluded having actually caught covid or flu or similar simultaneously which would explain all but the sore arm?

In your shoes I too would have been worried about a second jab. But like many things the second event isn’t always the same as the first, giving birth more than once is a common example. I really don’t think you can use placement of the syringe as evidence it was saline. And as said many times by many people it never was a 100% guarantee you wouldn’t catch covid, it just made it less likely, more so with the earlier variants than now, and milder if you did.
 
I realise being very unwell must have been worrying and unpleasant. I presume you excluded having actually caught covid or flu or similar simultaneously which would explain all but the sore arm?

In your shoes I too would have been worried about a second jab. But like many things the second event isn’t always the same as the first, giving birth more than once is a common example. I really don’t think you can use placement of the syringe as evidence it was saline. And as said many times by many people it never was a 100% guarantee you wouldn’t catch covid, it just made it less likely, more so with the earlier variants than now, and milder if you did.
The problems started within hours of the jab with pain and swelling at the site of the jab, and just got worse from there - to have gone down with an illness at exactly the same time as having such an obvious reaction would be a huge coincidence.
To have seen what I noticed at the time of the second injection and then have absolutely no reaction at all was just, to my mind, really suspicious.
 
The problems started within hours of the jab with pain and swelling at the site of the jab, and just got worse from there - to have gone down with an illness at exactly the same time as having such an obvious reaction would be a huge coincidence.
To have seen what I noticed at the time of the second injection and then have absolutely no reaction at all was just, to my mind, really suspicious.
Yes it would have been a very unfortunate coincidence to have had the arm reaction likely from the jab and a simultaneous other illness, but these things are not impossible either. More likely than vaccinators switching out vaccines for saline in my opinion though, but both of us are speculating and none of the realities can be proven now.
 
We probably can't, but we could improve the response to infection by using vaccines.
Which vaccines? Vaccines were not available to children in the UK when the study you posted (dated Dec 2020) was published and infection can't be prevented anyway. By the time vaccines (designed for the original variant) were made available to children, it was a milder omicron variant making its way, by which time many of the population had already caught the virus. For this reason the JCVI never went as far as to recommend the covid vaccines for children. The JCVI deemed the risks (myocarditis and other risks)/reward (most kids don't even know they have it) of vaccination marginal.

Vaccines for children here were only ever by invitation, offer or made available to them, never recommended.
 
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infection can't be prevented anyway.
No, but infections vary in severity. While most of us (not just children) couldn't have received a dose during 2020, receiving a dose later (including after recovering from infection) can improve ones immune response.

That seems well established: just as multiple doses of vaccine are better than one (with many arguing that the mRNA vaccines are really 3 dose vaccines rather than 2 dose), having an extra couple of doses after recovering from an infection gives measurably better immune response than just the infection alone. (Though I think that's lab measurements: antibodies, neutralising antibodies, variety of antibodies, etc., rather than evidence of actual benefit against disease.) Indeed, there were stories about "super immunity", though hybrid immunity seems to be the accepted term. (And that's also used for vaccinated people who go on to recover from infections, which seems to provide a similarly improved immune response.)
The JCVI deemed the risks (myocarditis and other risks)/reward (most kids don't even know they have it) of vaccination marginal.
Yes, I know. That wasn't an uncontroversial opinion. I'm sceptical of it. There's a paper published suggesting they just got the calculations wrong, and I'm inclined to believe that one (though I haven't checked the maths). Many (though certainly not all) countries have gone a different way. JCVI also doesn't support chicken pox vaccination (and for a while didn't support HPV vaccination for most boys) so I think it's a bit less keen on vaccines than similar bodies in other countries. I suspect that's for cost reasons but I do wonder if there are other considerations.

Regardless, I accept that even if they decided it would be a good idea to vaccinate children, it's just too late now. They've said that repeated infections are about as healthy for children ("healthy children", that is) as vaccines and it would be very hard to shift that. Even if Novavax (or some other vaccine) became available for children and had no apparent myocarditis or similar risk.
 
No, but infections vary in severity. While most of us (not just children) couldn't have received a dose during 2020, receiving a dose later (including after recovering from infection) can improve ones immune response.

That seems well established: just as multiple doses of vaccine are better than one (with many arguing that the mRNA vaccines are really 3 dose vaccines rather than 2 dose), having an extra couple of doses after recovering from an infection gives measurably better immune response than just the infection alone. (Though I think that's lab measurements: antibodies, neutralising antibodies, variety of antibodies, etc., rather than evidence of actual benefit against disease.) Indeed, there were stories about "super immunity", though hybrid immunity seems to be the accepted term. (And that's also used for vaccinated people who go on to recover from infections, which seems to provide a similarly improved immune response.)

Yes, I know. That wasn't an uncontroversial opinion. I'm sceptical of it. There's a paper published suggesting they just got the calculations wrong, and I'm inclined to believe that one (though I haven't checked the maths). Many (though certainly not all) countries have gone a different way. JCVI also doesn't support chicken pox vaccination (and for a while didn't support HPV vaccination for most boys) so I think it's a bit less keen on vaccines than similar bodies in other countries. I suspect that's for cost reasons but I do wonder if there are other considerations.

Regardless, I accept that even if they decided it would be a good idea to vaccinate children, it's just too late now. They've said that repeated infections are about as healthy for children ("healthy children", that is) as vaccines and it would be very hard to shift that. Even if Novavax (or some other vaccine) became available for children and had no apparent myocarditis or similar risk.
@Bruce Stephens @HSSS a simple like of my valid and accurate points would of been suffice.

I only made two factual points about the link you posted about the effect of infection in children in 2020. That preventing infection isn't possible and vaccines were not available for children. What happened after that is irrelevant to my point.

I can still remember the original aim of the vaccination programme.

"15million jabs to freedom".

The vaccines were designed and emergency authorised (not recommended) only to prevent death and hospitalization/serious illness, never to prevent infection, transmission or to put an end to the pandemic.

The 15 million jabs to freedom was based on those who fitted the design/benefit of the vaccines, those likely to benefit from what the vaccines were designed to do. That's why William Shakespeare was at the top end of the list, the first man in the world to receive the jab and not a child like Harry Potter or Tom Thumb

That was all the programme was originally sold to the public and intended for. Those in their 90's, 80's, 70's, 60's, 50's and those immunocompromised. It was calculated that 15million people would capture all those at risk of death or hospitalization. Ultimately allowing the country to reopen, after locking people away from the great outdoors and all that fresh air where no transmission was known to occur.


 
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You expect the Daily Mail‘s click bait attention grabbing headlines to be absolute promises?

Perhaps my memory is adled but weren’t you previously arguing that we were promised total immunity and it was us reminding you that that wasn’t ever the promise (perhaps hope). At least you’ve progressed on that issue.

If your first comment refers to post 59 I didn’t like it because I didn’t agree, or not entirely. On the occasions rare though they are that I agree with you I have said so. Yes policy should have accounted for the degree of immunity prior infection gave (but it was unknown and unclear how much that was every bit as much as the same was true of the vaccines). A vaccine is not “treatment”. It also confers a different type of protection to prior infection, potentially and believed to be wider eg involving T cells rather than just antibodies. Lastly those that had been infected prior to vaccines were in a different position to those that had either deliberately or luckily managed to avoid it assisted by their own actions and choices in the meantime which you seem to forget too.

oh and it is possible to catch it outdoors, just less likely.
 
You expect the Daily Mail‘s click bait attention grabbing headlines to be absolute promises?
No. Just saying that when the vaccines were released (under emergency use) they were for emergency use of those at risk of dying or being hospitalised for covid, no mention of vaccinating healthy children.
Perhaps my memory is adled but weren’t you previously arguing that we were promised total immunity and it was us reminding you that that wasn’t ever the promise (perhaps hope). At least you’ve progressed on that issue.

Nothing wrong with your memory, just saying many people caught covid in 2019/2020 and that there was very strong evidence from huge studies from Israel that natural immunity was very effective, which was confirmed again this year to be true. Hence, from a personal health point of view, once you've had covid you will likely have good long term immunity and t-cells.
Lastly those that had been infected prior to vaccines were in a different position to those that had either deliberately or luckily managed to avoid it assisted by their own actions and choices in the meantime which you seem to forget too.
True.
oh and it is possible to catch it outdoors, just less likely.
True and very, very much less likely, certainly not likely enough to lock people in their homes. What would have made more sense would have been to encourage people to get outdoors, fresh air, sunshine, exercise, vit D. That sounds like a better public health measure than stay indoors.
 
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No. Just saying that when the vaccines were released (under emergency use) they were for emergency use of those at risk of dying or being hospitalised for covid, no mention of vaccinating healthy children.


Nothing wrong with your memory, just saying many people caught covid in 2019/2020 and that there was very strong evidence from huge studies from Israel that natural immunity was very effective, which was confirmed again this year to be true. Hence, from a personal health point of view, once you've had covid you will likely have good long term immunity and t-cells.

True.

True and very, very much less likely, certainly not likely enough to lock people in their homes. What would have made more sense would have been to encourage people to get outdoors, fresh air, sunshine, exercise, vit D. That sounds like a better public health measure than stay indoors.
For once you and I agree. I even gave you a like . Shows how much sense you make when you agree with me :rofl:

The problem with encouraging people outside in the early days especially was also to keep them apart from others, potentially infected, they didn’t usually or need to mix with. I think there were better ways of managing lockdown than were employed - in many ways - whilst still agreeing with the principle of keeping groups of people that didn’t need to be exposed to others away from each other. My son caught covid playing sport outdoors (whilst allowed to under lockdown rules). 9 of 15 infected in one evening that all had no other apparent exposures.

Oddly lockdown did bring some - non covid related - benefits whilst also having some serious issues. Some of which were definitely avoidable in both your and my opinions. The covid enquiry is certainly confirming suspicions, on all sides, that decisions were made for some pretty poor reasons.
 
Strikes me that it's a waste of our time discussing individual elements of the Covid Inqiury, why don't we wait for their conclusions in their final report?
"The Covid Inquiry opens a window into the unutterable uselessness of our state apparatus. I don’t just mean that we are learning about the cock-ups of 2020. I mean that the Inquiry itself, obsessed with gossip, apparently uninterested in hard questions and partial in its assumptions, demonstrates how badly our institutions work..."


The establishment, which turned a drama into a crisis, which bankrupted the country, wrecked the education of millions of children and students, mangled the NHS and launched the biggest attack on personal freedom in modern times, has learned nothing and remembered nothing from the disaster [of Covid-19]

 
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"The Covid Inquiry opens a window into the unutterable uselessness of our state apparatus. I don’t just mean that we are learning about the cock-ups of 2020. I mean that the Inquiry itself, obsessed with gossip, apparently uninterested in hard questions and partial in its assumptions, demonstrates how badly our institutions work..."


The establishment, which turned a drama into a crisis, which bankrupted the country, wrecked the education of millions of children and students, mangled the NHS and launched the biggest attack on personal freedom in modern times, has learned nothing and remembered nothing from the disaster [of Covid-19]

I agree - I have no faith in anything useful coming out of this nor people/companies having any meaningful sentencing.
 
One thing that has come out of this is the way those making the decisions viewed the public is no longer deniable https://apple.news/A185kzZVCRyea_q0ErgV5fA
“Covid is just Nature’s way of dealing with old people,” Johnson is reported to have said dismissively.

To me at least, covid wasn't the biggest concern to the elderly, it was, by reading any readers comments on any newspaper or youtube channel, the callous way the elderly were dealt with in hospital (throwing them out with not enough time to even pick up their false teeth) and at "care" "homes" where they were left to die, mis-treated, over medicated, starved, starved of human contact, starved of care.
 
“Covid is just Nature’s way of dealing with old people,” Johnson is reported to have said dismissively.

To me at least, covid wasn't the biggest concern to the elderly, it was, by reading any readers comments on any newspaper or youtube channel, the callous way the elderly were dealt with in hospital (throwing them out with not enough time to even pick up their false teeth) and at "care" "homes" where they were left to die, mis-treated, over medicated, starved, starved of human contact, starved of care.
Same is said of many other vulnerable categories too. Particularly those that remain at very high risk yet have zero precautions in place anymore to protect them - even in medical environments.

I might not have the same issues as you with the response but boy I have plenty and am no fan of the overall management. Ultimately with something on this scale and as unprecedented (god I hate that word now) as this there were always going to be mistakes made. But they don’t appear to have been best intentioned or best efforts. Too much ego and uninformed opinions from people that simply didn’t have a scoobies making choices that suited them.
 
Same is said of many other vulnerable categories too. Particularly those that remain at very high risk yet have zero precautions in place anymore to protect them - even in medical environments.

I might not have the same issues as you with the response but boy I have plenty and am no fan of the overall management. Ultimately with something on this scale and as unprecedented (god I hate that word now) as this there were always going to be mistakes made. But they don’t appear to have been best intentioned or best efforts. Too much ego and uninformed opinions from people that simply didn’t have a scoobies making choices that suited them.
The point i've been trying to make over past 3 years or so is, there was something off with the whole pandemic narrative from the very outset to even now. Of all those excess deaths in the so called "first wave" only a proportion were classed as covid (and of them how many were actually covid?). This leaves a lot of non-covid excess deaths in that first wave. So in other words, something else was going on at that very same time.

Most of my points are already covered in this thread. It's only when you see the bigger picture and look at all the inconsistencies and irrational, non-sensical happenings you start to think, hold on a minute, something ain't right with all this. The list is literally endless.
 
As the MSM are now starting to report on studies and evidence that are counter the main covid narrative (2020-2022), today's news is that the age old remedy of gargling salt water helps reduce the infection, symptoms and hospitalisation by up to 40%. A story like this in 2020 would never of made into the main stream news and anyone suggesting gargling salt to help your covid symptoms would have been simply called a "conspiracy theorist" or "anti vaxxer".

How many lives could of been saved had the public been told this?

Bear in mind, how we were all unequivocally told repeatedly that there was no treatment for covid19 and that because there was no treatment for covid19, they gave emergency use authorisation for the multi billon pound novel covid vaccines. This emergency use was only legally possible if there was no other treatment for covid 19.

So there you go folks, salt water; home remedy, cheap, abundant and easy to administer in the home AND safe and effective! Also see links showing how salt water has always been recommended for all sorts of viral infections.


"Gargling salt water can help relieve and prevent infection. It may also help reduce symptoms of other issues affecting the respiratory system, such as allergies"
"They’re most often used for sore throats, viral respiratory infections like colds (corona virus), or sinus infections. They can also help with allergies or other mild issues. Salt water gargles may be effective for both relieving infections and preventing them from getting worse, as well."
 
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So there you go folks, salt water; home remedy, cheap, abundant and easy to administer in the home AND safe and effective!
Gargling and nasal lavage, 4 times daily, which might reduce hospitalisation by about half. And might reduce transmission and so on but they don't really know. Would have been nice to know, I guess, and recommending it would probably have been more effective than obsessing over hand washing (which still seems to be recommended over cleaner air or mask wearing).

Not a substitute for the amazing vaccines we got in under a year.
 
Gargling and nasal lavage, 4 times daily, which might reduce hospitalisation by about half. And might reduce transmission and so on but they don't really know. Would have been nice to know, I guess, and recommending it would probably have been more effective than obsessing over hand washing (which still seems to be recommended over cleaner air or mask wearing).

Not a substitute for the amazing vaccines we got in under a year.
So why do you think this age old, easy, known solution (using salt water rinse) wasn't made public in 2020 or thereafter?
 
So why do you think this age old, easy, known solution (using salt water rinse) wasn't made public in 2020 or thereafter?
I don't know. I'd guess the evidence for hand washing is just better (and presumably had an impact on public health generally). I presume the common cold unit studied it at some point (on colds), and I guess didn't find it that helpful?
 
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