Carb counting - what did I do wrong?

[Sprogladite]

I find riding a tricky one. I have a lesson every week, or occasionally go for a hack. If I'm having an intense flatwork lesson, concentrating hard, and working quite hard, I often find my levels drop a bit. If we're jumping, and the adrenalin gets going, I rise! Trouble is, I don't know what we'll be doing til I get to the stables. Hacking doesn't have much of an effect either way.
It's trial and error, I'm afraid, testing before and after, and observing what happens, then reacting to it.

Yes I'm the same except it's lessons I'm not sure what we're gonna be doing - I have a loan pony who is lame at the moment but we stick to schooling as there's no hacking available, and I have a lesson every 2 weeks at a riding school which is pretty intense hard work. Sometimes we jump, sometimes we don't, but we never know what it's gonna be until we get there which makes planning for it difficult. I miss hacking so much! Makes a lot of sense about it being trial and error, sometimes I hypo after mucking out lol (I'm small and unfit!) and I find when that happens it's coz we've been working hard in the school. I guess I have a slight notion of what will effect me, just need to pay more attention now!

 

[trophywench]

Just keep JBs in your pocket and scoff a couple as you pick up the pitchfork/rake whatever.

Just a note on pizza - it regularly spikes me about 5 hours after I eat it ....... so, it's at most once a week and Pete always gets the big half LOL He has chips and I have salad. Half is 47 ish g - so I get 40g or less. It's enough cos I'd rarely have 4 spuds (ie 10g ish pieces of spud) with a meat and veg dinner, so I don't have substantially more than 30 -40g whether it's pizza or rice or anything really. Macaroni cheese with toast is a bit higher but that probably happens twice a year LOL

 

[Sprogladite]

Hmm it's interesting people are saying its spiking them, I've just tested again and am down to 14.3! I started off at 13.2, was 16 after 2 hours, now 14.3 after 3 and a half. We know my ratio isn't quite right yet. Is it too early to hope that pizza isn't evil to me? LOL

 

[DeusXM]

Honestly, I know you're working towards it, but I think before you start working on ratios you really need to get your basal sorted and start from a healthy initial reading. The problem is that meters become increasingly inaccurate the higher your blood glucose is, and in my personal experience my body ironically uses insulin less efficiently the higher my blood sugar is.

What is really needed is for you to get your blood sugar down into at least single figures before doing the carb counting thing. You also, temporarily, really need to make some better dietary choices that will help you get to that point in the first instance. So far you've had spaghetti, a whole baguette, and a pizza - foods that I know personally wreck utter havoc with my blood sugar and I find near impossible to bolus for. It's not so much running before you can walk, as trying to beat Usain Bolt before you can walk!

Seriously, for your carb counting work, at least start with meals that aren't both high-carb and high-fat. You will find this process a heck of a lot easier and less frustrating.

 

[Sprogladite]

@DeusXM I totally get what you are trying to say; however - as I've said previously, there is no way I can do a basal test until this weekend, which I am planning to do. My sugars have been in the single figures initially, it's not until after lunch they have gone into double digits, which I don't think is a terrible thing considering we don't know what my ratio is yet (6.5 in the am, 7.6 or close at lunch, can't remember exactly now. 4.4 this morning).
As far as dietary choices go, I'm completely and totally unwilling to cut things like spaghetti out of my diet. It is not going to happen. A lot of people here have stated that they have found ways to keep these foods in their diet, whether it's by splitting injections, changing the timing of their injections, reducing portion size etc. Changing my diet whilst working out my ratio seems counterproductive to me, surely it is better to work it out on the diet I am already on? I will never be one of these diabetics who cuts carbs out as much as possible. I'm willing to do the work to find a way to manage them when I do eat them, if it's more difficult then it's more difficult but I'm sure I'll get there eventually.
As mentioned previously, I'm putting literally everything I'm doing, dosing and eating, along with my BG levels onto a spreadsheet which I will be taking with me when I see the DN on the 23rd. Another week of this is not going to do any serious damage, and who knows, it could well be that I've got my basal and ratio sorted out by then. I appreciate everyone's help, and I know my meal choices haven't been what's considered 'simple' for a carb counting diabetic, however that's just life. I leave for work at 7am and frequently don't get back until 8pm in the evening. I can't afford to wait for my family to eat and then cook something completely separately for myself, I wouldn't eat until 10pm.
Bear in mind I've literally done this for one complete day. I'm on a fairly steep learning curve here and for the last 23 years I've been under the impression that carbs are a good thing for diabetics! I am having to completely relearn everything I thought I knew. If there is any possibility that I can find a way to make carb counting work for me without fiddling around with my diet, then I want to give that a fair go before I start trying anything else. I hope that makes sense 🙂

 

[DeusXM]

As far as dietary choices go, I'm completely and totally unwilling to cut things like spaghetti out of my diet.

And I'm not suggesting you do. I just said these are hard meals to bolus for. Given as you say this is the first time you've really tried this, it makes WAY more sense to try with 'easier' meals first before graduating to the more complex stuff. And by easier, I mean things like meat and two veg with spuds etc. I'm not saying 'don't eat carbs ever', I'm just saying that if you want to learn how to manage your carbs, the worst place to start is with the kind of meals that tend to be the exceptions to the patterns! It's also not about asking your family to wait and then cook something separately. As you said, it's just 'another week' - is it really that much to ask your family, for just one week, to maybe just have some simpler things for dinner to help you learn some things that mean you'll have many more years of happiness together?

Or bluntly, is your family's 'right' to have pasta or pizza more than once a week more important than your right to being healthy?

As I said, make sure you've learned to walk before you start trying to beat Usain Bolt. I didn't say 'don't go for gold'.

 

[Sprogladite]

And I'm not suggesting you do. I just said these are hard meals to bolus for. Given as you say this is the first time you've really tried this, it makes WAY more sense to try with 'easier' meals first before graduating to the more complex stuff. And by easier, I mean things like meat and two veg with spuds etc. I'm not saying 'don't eat carbs ever', I'm just saying that if you want to learn how to manage your carbs, the worst place to start is with the kind of meals that tend to be the exceptions to the patterns! It's also not about asking your family to wait and then cook something separately. As you said, it's just 'another week' - is it really that much to ask your family, for just one week, to maybe just have some simpler things for dinner to help you learn some things that mean you'll have many more years of happiness together?

Or bluntly, is your family's 'right' to have pasta or pizza more than once a week more important than your right to being healthy?

As I said, make sure you've learned to walk before you start trying to beat Usain Bolt. I didn't say 'don't go for gold'.

Knowing my personal situation will probably help you understand where i'm coming from on this one - I live at home with my parents and son. My father is retired and is the one who prepares dinners/decides what we are having. I have always been frustrated with my family as their understanding of diabetes has always been very black and white, and they are unwilling to sit down and learn about what it actually is because as far as they are concerned, they know how to treat hypos and they know when to get me to hospital when I'm high, and that's all they need to know. My dad in particular is of the 'you should just be grateful you're getting your dinner cooked for you at all' mindset and if I dare to ask for any flexibility/changes then ultimately it would come down to him refusing to cook dinner for me at all and I would be back to waiting for everyone to be done before I can cook dinner for myself. So in response to your question, yes, it is apparently too much to ask. It's frustrating but there isn't an awful lot I can do about it.

That being said, my mother has agreed to come to the supermarket this weekend to find some alternatives to all of the pasta we have in the house. She is more open to learning about this with me, but again, she doesn't appreciate the difference between different types of carbs, for her they are all the same. I am hoping that by doing this, meals for next week will be somewhat 'simpler' in terms of the carb counting!

 

[Kaylz]

Knowing my personal situation will probably help you understand where i'm coming from on this one - I live at home with my parents and son. My father is retired and is the one who prepares dinners/decides what we are having. I have always been frustrated with my family as their understanding of diabetes has always been very black and white, and they are unwilling to sit down and learn about what it actually is because as far as they are concerned, they know how to treat hypos and they know when to get me to hospital when I'm high, and that's all they need to know. My dad in particular is of the 'you should just be grateful you're getting your dinner cooked for you at all' mindset and if I dare to ask for any flexibility/changes then ultimately it would come down to him refusing to cook dinner for me at all and I would be back to waiting for everyone to be done before I can cook dinner for myself. So in response to your question, yes, it is apparently too much to ask. It's frustrating but there isn't an awful lot I can do about it.

That being said, my mother has agreed to come to the supermarket this weekend to find some alternatives to all of the pasta we have in the house. She is more open to learning about this with me, but again, she doesn't appreciate the difference between different types of carbs, for her they are all the same. I am hoping that by doing this, meals for next week will be somewhat 'simpler' in terms of the carb counting!

Why would you have to wait for everyone else to be finished their meal before you cook yours, could you not prepare some meals at the weekend that you could pop in the freezer and then just take out and reheat when needed, I have tea with my 84 year old very stubborn grandad who has taken aboard that there has had to be changes in what we eat as he understands it's better for me in the long run but if he hadn't been so understanding and willing to go along with it I would have done exactly as I've just said, made my own things at the weekend and put them in the freezer, I also live at home with my mum, I am not in any way criticizing you or your family, but it may be good to get one of your parents along to an appointment with your DSN or dietician if you see one, as I feel quite sorry that you have to just go along with what is put in front of you, by no means should you cut them out completely jeez I still regularly enjoy a bar of chocolate like a kit kat peanut butter chunky by lowering my lunch carbs and adding it in, unlike you though I have not been brave enough to try pasta, pizza etc, I did well on a chinese when first diagnosed and on set units with a rice and chicken curry but I haven't had it again as I can't remember what I took for it or how much it was as the dietician kept my food diary with it on, what kind of other meals do you have as only a suggestion have your pasta or noodles etc a smaller portion and bulk it out with things like chicken or beef as that has no carbs, I really wish you the best of luck and please don't feel frustrated at things said here, we all want to support and help you along this 🙂 x

 

[Sprogladite]

Why would you have to wait for everyone else to be finished their meal before you cook yours, could you not prepare some meals at the weekend that you could pop in the freezer and then just take out and reheat when needed, I have tea with my 84 year old very stubborn grandad who has taken aboard that there has had to be changes in what we eat as he understands it's better for me in the long run but if he hadn't been so understanding and willing to go along with it I would have done exactly as I've just said, made my own things at the weekend and put them in the freezer, I also live at home with my mum, I am not in any way criticizing you or your family, but it may be good to get one of your parents along to an appointment with your DSN or dietician if you see one, as I feel quite sorry that you have to just go along with what is put in front of you, by no means should you cut them out completely jeez I still regularly enjoy a bar of chocolate like a kit kat peanut butter chunky by lowering my lunch carbs and adding it in, unlike you though I have not been brave enough to try pasta, pizza etc, I did well on a chinese when first diagnosed and on set units with a rice and chicken curry but I haven't had it again as I can't remember what I took for it or how much it was as the dietician kept my food diary with it on, what kind of other meals do you have as only a suggestion have your pasta or noodles etc a smaller portion and bulk it out with things like chicken or beef as that has no carbs, I really wish you the best of luck and please don't feel frustrated at things said here, we all want to support and help you along this 🙂 x

I could, except my dad has severe OCD so cooking for him is a problem as it really sets him off (this is why he is the one who does the cooking in the house). I also wouldn't be able to store a week's worth of dinners in the freezer, the one we have is too small. I have asked both of my parents to come with me to the clinic but they are both unwilling to do this - they see it as a waste of time. As far as they are concerned they have what was told to them when I was initially diagnosed and that's all they need. They don't understand that the advice I was given was wrong, they don't even understand the difference between mixed insulin and the regimen I'm on now. Dealing with them as far as the diabetes is concerned is very frustrating, it has literally gotten to the point where I don't feel I can talk to them about it because it will end in a fight and me crying in frustration.

 

[Kaylz]

I could, except my dad has severe OCD so cooking for him is a problem as it really sets him off (this is why he is the one who does the cooking in the house). I also wouldn't be able to store a week's worth of dinners in the freezer, the one we have is too small. I have asked both of my parents to come with me to the clinic but they are both unwilling to do this - they see it as a waste of time. As far as they are concerned they have what was told to them when I was initially diagnosed and that's all they need. They don't understand that the advice I was given was wrong, they don't even understand the difference between mixed insulin and the regimen I'm on now. Dealing with them as far as the diabetes is concerned is very frustrating, it has literally gotten to the point where I don't feel I can talk to them about it because it will end in a fight and me crying in frustration.

Ah I've lived with a form of OCD, for me it was I always felt like I needed to wash my hands constantly throughout the day, to me they were never clean, since being diagnosed I haven't had that problem and the skin on my hands look so much better now, I really wish I could think of a way that would help you as reading what you are going through is heartbreaking x

 

[Ljc]

It sounds like you are in somewhat of a difficult situation. I do hope that mum going to the supermarket with you will help. Fingers crossed it does.

 

[Sprogladite]

It sounds like you are in somewhat of a difficult situation. I do hope that mum going to the supermarket with you will help. Fingers crossed it does.

Thank you, it's the only thing I can think of! If anyone else has any suggestions I'm more than willing to take them on board

 

[Northerner]

I could, except my dad has severe OCD so cooking for him is a problem as it really sets him off (this is why he is the one who does the cooking in the house). I also wouldn't be able to store a week's worth of dinners in the freezer, the one we have is too small. I have asked both of my parents to come with me to the clinic but they are both unwilling to do this - they see it as a waste of time. As far as they are concerned they have what was told to them when I was initially diagnosed and that's all they need. They don't understand that the advice I was given was wrong, they don't even understand the difference between mixed insulin and the regimen I'm on now. Dealing with them as far as the diabetes is concerned is very frustrating, it has literally gotten to the point where I don't feel I can talk to them about it because it will end in a fight and me crying in frustration.

It must be very frustrating for you I'm fortunate to be able to make all my own food choices, and decide when to eat, but I used to get very frustrated when spending time with my Dad and stepmother for a week each year. Although my stepmother had some idea, my dad really didn't, and they used to eat far too late for my liking as I have never liked going to bed with insulin still active from my evening meal. Still, that was only a week a year, I think it would drive me mad if I had to do it all the time - you have my sympathies! Hope you can manage to work something out 🙂

 

[Ljc]

I live with my elderly dad, he just can't understand no matter how I try, that I don't count calories, I count carbs instead, luckily I do all the cooking, else I'd be having air pie and windy pud for dinner if he had his way
So I do understand a little something of what your going through

 

[Sprogladite]

Thank you. It's why I feel I don't have many choices in terms of simplifying my meals currently. Breakfast and lunch I have more control of as I am in the office when I eat, so maybe I should stick to a fixed dose for the evening and try using breakfast and lunch for working out carb ratios? If all else fails the parents are going on holiday in early July so I will have a week where I can knuckle down with some simpler meals and hopefully get this nailed. I'd really rather not have to wait that long though!

 

[Northerner]

Thank you. It's why I feel I don't have many choices in terms of simplifying my meals currently. Breakfast and lunch I have more control of as I am in the office when I eat, so maybe I should stick to a fixed dose for the evening and try using breakfast and lunch for working out carb ratios? If all else fails the parents are going on holiday in early July so I will have a week where I can knuckle down with some simpler meals and hopefully get this nailed. I'd really rather not have to wait that long though!

It's certainly worth working out the breakfast and lunch ratios first as they might give you a good indication of where to go with your evening meals. I find that I need a lot more insulin in the mornings, then it reduces by lunchtime and then even more by the evening. A lot of people find this and it is due to us tending to be more insulin-resistant in the mornings, then more insulin-sensitive as the day progresses and we become more active 🙂 As an example, I currently need 8 units for a slice of toast for breakfast, 8 units for much more carbs at lunchtime for a sandwich and banana and a yoghurt, then about 6 units for even more carbs in my evening meal - so quite a variation throughout the day. You might, of course, be very different - that's the awkward nature of diabetes 🙄

 

[DeusXM]

I think perhaps it's less about changing what everyone eats, and more just altering the proportions - for instance, instead of a big bowl of pasta, have a smaller portion of the pasta with some grilled meat and roast veg next to it. The difficulty is at present you're eating meals that are almost entirely carbs with a bit of fat. Instead of a baguette, have a sandwich on wholemeal sliced bread.

I know it's hard but there has to be a bit of give from your family. You've got a medical condition. Unfortunately, that means the onus is on THEM to make a few accommodations. One of the showstoppers I've occasionally pulled out when I've been trying to negotiate with some people is to tell them they're not the one walking round with a dead rotting organ inside them - ok, it's over the top (and not even medically accurate), but sometimes pointing out you essentially have organ failure can make people realise they're being a bit unreasonable about putting their gustatory pleasure before your health.

 

[Sprogladite]

I think perhaps it's less about changing what everyone eats, and more just altering the proportions - for instance, instead of a big bowl of pasta, have a smaller portion of the pasta with some grilled meat and roast veg next to it. The difficulty is at present you're eating meals that are almost entirely carbs with a bit of fat. Instead of a baguette, have a sandwich on wholemeal sliced bread.

I know it's hard but there has to be a bit of give from your family. You've got a medical condition. Unfortunately, that means the onus is on THEM to make a few accommodations. One of the showstoppers I've occasionally pulled out when I've been trying to negotiate with some people is to tell them they're not the one walking round with a dead rotting organ inside them - ok, it's over the top (and not even medically accurate), but sometimes pointing out you essentially have organ failure can make people realise they're being a bit unreasonable about putting their gustatory pleasure before your health.

Unfortunately I've tried that one already and was told to stop being a drama queen. I then got upset and told them it was all well and good them doing what they wanted but they aren't facing the prospect of going blind and losing their feet, which isn't dramatic it's fact. I got rolled eyes in response.

I was thinking about maybe trying soup for lunch today - is there anything I need to avoid/is this a bad idea? Does it depend on the soup? I had scrambled eggs and a yoghurt for breakfast today but had a hypo about an hour after eating.

 

[Northerner]

Some soups have a high sugar content - I'd check the labels 🙂

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Thank you. It's why I feel I don't have many choices in terms of simplifying my meals currently. Breakfast and lunch I have more control of as I am in the office when I eat, so maybe I should stick to a fixed dose for the evening and try using breakfast and lunch for working out carb ratios? If all else fails the parents are going on holiday in early July so I will have a week where I can knuckle down with some simpler meals and hopefully get this nailed. I'd really rather not have to wait that long though!

Just to offer a slightly different point of view to DeusXM's - for the entire time I have been diagnosed I have been eating meals not dissimilar to the ones you describe (pizza, pasta, rice totalling approx 60-70 grams of carbs) and have managed to keep my BG relatively well behaved (largely by a process of trial and error in the early days, but more recenty better results with insulin:carb ratios and factors).

So it IS possible to eat as you are and work out the doses/timings/splits that your body individually needs to get decent BG results.

What you will have already gathered though, is that some meals carry additional difficulty. So you *may* not be able to use the same approach for everything.

Right now you are trying to work out your basic system for most foods and Deus (and others) are suggesting that this is easiest done by avoiding the notoriously tricky things and trying to get yourself more on an even keel by eating fairly boring, predictable things to begin with.

So I would suggest working on your breakfast and lunch as 'Project 1', and your evening meals as 'Project 2'. Use the same approaches for both to start with. If breakfast and lunch are in your complete control you could choose to really reduce the variables for those meals by eating exactly the same thing for a month. There are enough other differences day-to-day without having constantly different meals when you are trying to work things out to begin with. You may not be able to face that idea though! Keep careful notes of what happens after eating. BG before, BG at 1-2 hours, BG at 4 hours. For evening meals you will need to keep more detail and include the type - with pizza this happened... with pasta that happened... rice seemed OK... And then tailor your approach to different evening meals based on previous results when you ate the same thing.

If you have a smartphone you might find a diabetes BG/food tracking app useful for this. Particularly one like mySugr whivh allows you to make notes and search for results by keyword.

You won't get it all 'fixed' immediately (or ever!) but things WILL get better and you WILL be able to crack it. It just takes a bit of stickability and graft.