Carb counting - what did I do wrong?

[everydayupsanddowns]

One of my favourite apps for cooking from scratch is 'Cook and Count'.

It has a big directory of standard ingredients built-in and you can add new ones from your own larder. Then you just put put the recipe together and it will tell you the carb count per portion (as long as you divide roughly equally!). You can save recipes you make often and tweak/update them again, or simply change number of portions if you one extra to feed.

 

[Sprogladite]

Ok, another question - say, for example, I have a chicken and bacon baguette for lunch. Carbs, according to the label is 51.9. Is this 'carbs' level on the label the same as CHO that bertie refers to? Sorry if that's a stupid question I just want to make sure I have the right info!

Just another point (and sorry if this one's a little disheartening!)...I would only go off the carb counts available on Carbs n Cals, BERTIE etc. when there is no information on the product itself. The carb information on both those sources is 'best guess' but products can have a lot of variability.

For things like sauces made from scratch, you almost need to start right at the beginning by looking at the carbs in the raw ingredients, adding it all together and then knowing how much is in the total amount of sauce (eg. you know you've put 30g of carbs in, and you've ended up with 250ml of sauce), then working backwards. So in this instance, say you know there's 100ml of sauce on your plate, you'd divide 30g by 250ml, and then multiply by 100ml to get 12g in your sauce.

That's a particularly fiddly example but shows how things can work. I know it's a real pain but doing a lot of the hard stuff up front leaves you with good estimating skills for the future - the best skill anyone who uses insulin can learn is how to eyeball a plate of food and make a pretty good guess of how many carbs are in it.

Not disheartening, just eye opening lol. I never realised how much of my diet actually consists of carbs I didn't know I was eating!

 

[Sprogladite]

One of my favourite apps for cooking from scratch is 'Cook and Count'.

It has a big directory of standard ingredients built-in and you can add new ones from your own larder. Then you just put put the recipe together and it will tell you the carb count per portion (as long as you divide roughly equally!). You can save recipes you make often and tweak/update them again, or simply change number of portions if you one extra to feed.

Thank you that sounds like a lifesaver! The prospect of all this maths has me shaking in my boots lol!

 

[Sprogladite]

As for starting doses/ratios, you could always check with the TDD 'rules' (which are more averages / guesses / starting points):

1. Assuming you are not permanently hypo OR permanently in double figures start by calculating your Total Daily Dose (TDD). That's all your meal doses, corrections and basal insulin.
2. Most people's basal will be approx half of their TDD. For some it will be 60:40 for others 40:60, but it's likely to be around that
   
3. For insulin sensitivity calculate TDD divided by 100. This will be how much BG will drop in mmol/L from 1u of insulin
4. For meal ratio calculate 500 divided by TDD. This will be the grams of carb that are covered by 1u of insulin

These aren't likely to be perfect, but they might give you a bit of a start. Obviously in an ideal world you'd want to discuss this with your clinic/Dr/nurse before making any changes. Certainly don't make *drastic* changes off the back of these rules without speaking to someone - but they are ones that have been given to me in clinic.

Ok so I've done a little bit of the dreaded maths and have come up with the following:

1. TDD - 18 + 11 + 14 (novorapid) + 28 glargine = 71
2. Basal is 28 - roughly 40:60 ish? Someone may have to help me with this lol
3. 71/100 = 0.71, so for correction doses that equates to just under a unit per mmol/L that will drop - I suspect this one may actually be higher
4. 500/71 = 7.04, so that makes it 1:7. I literally have no idea how to convert that into a ratio that is x:10 lol...help!

Any thoughts on the above?

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

@Sprogladite Blimey charlie!! STOPPPPP!!!

And this is why you should never trust some random nutter on the internet.

In my haste I got it entirely the wrong way around!

The 100 rule is 100/TDD. So in your case 100/71 = 1u drops BG by 1.4mmol/L

 

[Sprogladite]

Ok, I did think that one seemed a bit low! That really made me chuckle lol. At least my maths was right haha!

Don't worry I'm not planning to use these before I've discussed them with the DN. What I do after will be entirely dependent on how helpful the visit has been!

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

For meal ratios, sounds like you can either brush up on your 7 times table or 1.4 times table.

1u:7g carbs = 100u:70g carbs = 1.4u:10g carbs

Personally I would work out the total carbs and divide by 7 on my phone.

So 14g carbs (a pack of crisps, smallish apple) would be 2u.

Or a meal totalling, say, 65g carbs would be 65/7 = 9.28, which you'd round down to 9u

Having said ALL of this... the changes you are thinking of making to your initial ratios/factors quite large. And I'd be tempted to do a 'halfway house' so you can view progress. 10% or 20% differences are pretty safe. So try 1:9 first, for a few days/week, then 1:8 etc.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Incidentally CHO is science speak for Carbon plus Hydrogen and Oxygen (water). The components of Carbo-Hydrate. They are the same thing 🙂

 

[Sprogladite]

For meal ratios, sounds like you can either brush up on your 7 times table or 1.4 times table.

1u:7g carbs = 100u:70g carbs = 1.4u:10g carbs

Personally I would work out the total carbs and divide by 7 on my phone.

So 14g carbs (a pack of crisps, smallish apple) would be 2u.

Or a meal totalling, say, 65g carbs would be 65/7 = 9.28, which you'd round down to 9u

Having said ALL of this... the changes you are thinking of making to your initial ratios/factors quite large. And I'd be tempted to do a 'halfway house' so you can view progress. 10% or 20% differences are pretty safe. So try 1:9 first, for a few days/week, then 1:8 etc.

That sounds good, I definitely don't want to do anything drastic while I'm still learning. Is it worth me sticking to 1:10 initially for a couple of days just to make sure that's definitely not right for me, and go down from there? Or rather up, as we think my ratio is probably slightly more?

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

I'd always advise caution, and checking with actual qualified people wherever possible. Marathon not a sprint etc etc.

It's actually pretty terrifying that we are let loose to administer a potentially lethal drug using our own guesswork several times a day!

 

[Sprogladite]

I'd always advise caution, and checking with actual qualified people wherever possible. Marathon not a sprint etc etc.

It's actually pretty terrifying that we are let loose to administer a potentially lethal drug using our own guesswork several times a day!

It is, especially as most of the time it is guesswork when we haven't been given the appropriate guidance. Ok, I'm gonna be super duper cautious and have a ham and cheese baguette for lunch with a glass of water and use the 1:10 ratio, because I want to see how different it is when I calculate properly. The baguette is 218g total weight, has 24.9 carbs/100g, so that's what, 5 and a bit units? Sugar level is currently 7.6 so don't want to do any corrections this time, but maybe up it to 6 units total? What do you think?

 

[SB2015]

Info from packet 24.9 g CHO per 100 g
Weight of baguette 218 g
Amount of carbs in whole baguette 24.9 x 2.18 (218 /100 = 2.18)
= 54 g CHO. (I also keep a calculator in the kitchen along with the scales)

If your ratio is 1 unit : 10 g CHO then that his 5 and a bit units, maybe up to 6 to address BG.
Spot on. Your Maths is fine, and with carb counting it will just get better.

When I was worrying about going high after meals I just reduced the carbs, e.g. Half a baguette.

I hope that you get your ratios sorted soon.

 

[Sprogladite]

Info from packet 24.9 g CHO per 100 g
Weight of baguette 218 g
Amount of carbs in whole baguette 24.9 x 2.18 (218 /100 = 2.18)
= 54 g CHO. (I also keep a calculator in the kitchen along with the scales)

If your ratio is 1 unit : 10 g CHO then that his 5 and a bit units, maybe up to 6 to address BG.
Spot on. Your Maths is fine, and with carb counting it will just get better.

When I was worrying about going high after meals I just reduced the carbs, e.g. Half a baguette.

I hope that you get your ratios sorted soon.

Thank you! That is what I did, so I will check sugars in a couple of hours. Cross your fingers lol 😉

 

[DeusXM]

If we're assuming a 1:10 ratio then your maths is correct, but I'd question whether you've read the carb figures correctly. I get that there's ham and cheese adding to the weight of the baguette which are effectively carb-free, but a standard empty baguette is something like 50g of carbs per 100g and they're fast acting too. So aside from the point that in all honesty, it's not a great choice at all for someone with diabetes, I'm a bit worried that you may have misread the carb information.

 

[Sprogladite]

If we're assuming a 1:10 ratio then your maths is correct, but I'd question whether you've read the carb figures correctly. I get that there's ham and cheese adding to the weight of the baguette which are effectively carb-free, but a standard empty baguette is something like 50g of carbs per 100g and they're fast acting too. So aside from the point that in all honesty, it's not a great choice at all for someone with diabetes, I'm a bit worried that you may have misread the carb information.

I definitely didn't misread it, I had two different people here at work check my maths coz I was worried about getting it wrong! If what you're saying is right, does this mean I can't trust the labels on the food I'm buying??

 

[DeusXM]

I stand corrected - I'd just usually expect a baguette to have a higher proportion of carbs in it. Must be a decent sized filling instead of the usual one slice of wafer thin ham and half a Babybel you usually get!

 

[Sprogladite]

I stand corrected - I'd just usually expect a baguette to have a higher proportion of carbs in it. Must be a decent sized filling instead of the usual one slice of wafer thin ham and half a Babybel you usually get!

Lol if it helps, the baguette was from Eat!

 

[trophywench]

The carb in a baguette varies enormously depending on a) the length of it you eat b) the girth of the baguette originally and c) whether your bit happens to be full of holes or is 100% bread !

I'd round that down to 5u if you don't want to correct. Did you know - you can quite easily request a half-unit pen instead of the 1u one you have at the moment? Same cartridges fit in either. I should ask your DSN for one when you see her - add it to the list! Makes the whole thing so much more precise - 54g = 5.5u (at 1u for 10g) - and easier, you don't have to have that discussion with yourself - shall I round this up, or down? actually!

 

[Radders]

I'd round that down to 5u if you don't want to correct. Did you know - you can quite easily request a half-unit pen instead of the 1u one you have at the moment? Same cartridges fit in either. I should ask your DSN for one when you see her - add it to the list! Makes the whole thing so much more precise - 54g = 5.5u (at 1u for 10g) - and easier, you don't have to have that discussion with yourself - shall I round this up, or down? actually!

I was going to post this. Half unit pens save a lot of trouble!

 

[Sprogladite]

Oh really! I had absolutely no idea half unit pens were even a thing! I shall stick it on the list 🙂 poor DN she is gonna have a shock when I walk in and throw all this info at her lol