Austria planning mandatory vaccination for all, with prison for non-compliance.

[mikeyB]

I think that the video over emphasises the "danger" of injecting into a blood vessel - the worst thing that can happen is the immunisation won't work, the contents of the injection will just be eaten up by the usual patrollers of the blood in mopping up alien bits. And there would be distinctive bruise and swelling if it did happen. Where are the reports of this happening?

That doesn't apply to all IM injections, but in any event I was always taught to aspirate giving an IM injection, so it isn't necessarily a UK wide technique not to do it, even though there aren't any major vessels in the deltoid, but lots of little ones. The best place for IM injections is the largest muscle in the body, the gluteus maximus. Or to put it another way, the bum.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I think that the video over emphasises the "danger" of injecting into a blood vessel - the worst thing that can happen is the immunisation won't work, the contents of the injection will just be eaten up by the usual patrollers of the blood in mopping up alien bits. And there would be distinctive bruise and swelling if it did happen. Where are the reports of this happening?

That doesn't apply to all IM injections, but in any event I was always taught to aspirate giving an IM injection, so it isn't necessarily a UK wide technique not to do it, even though there aren't any major vessels in the deltoid, but lots of little ones. The best place for IM injections is the largest muscle in the body, the gluteus maximus. Or to put it another way, the bum.

Not according to the news recently.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Not according to the news recently.

The rare blood clots (in at least Ox/AZ thought maybe also in other viral vector vaccines) are a different thing. I don't think anyone's suggested those might be caused by accidentally injecting into a blood vessel, though I might have missed that. (It's good that they seem to be finding the cause for that side effect, of course. That vaccine's much cheaper and just uses a regular cold chain, so is much more useful worldwide.)

 

[Deleted member 21371]

The rare blood clots (in at least Ox/AZ thought maybe also in other viral vector vaccines) are a different thing. I don't think anyone's suggested those might be caused by accidentally injecting into a blood vessel, though I might have missed that. (It's good that they seem to be finding the cause for that side effect, of course. That vaccine's much cheaper and just uses a regular cold chain, so is much more useful worldwide.)

Not "injected into"
Leaked into, as in the vaccine has found a way into the bloodstream.
Which obviously would include injection as a means.

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Not "injected into"
Leaked into, as in the vaccine has found a way into the bloodstream.
Which obviously would include injection as a means.

Yes, sorry.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

That doesn't apply to all IM injections, but in any event I was always taught to aspirate giving an IM injection, so it isn't necessarily a UK wide technique not to do it, even though there aren't any major vessels in the deltoid, but lots of little ones. The best place for IM injections is the largest muscle in the body, the gluteus maximus. Or to put it another way, the bum.

The shoulder is apparently safe enough, and while you might have been taught that, guidance has apparently changed.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

He could of equally instead made a video about reasons not to aspirate for IM vaccination without any reference to Dr John Campbell, keeping it impersonal and dealing instead directly with the subject matter. Personally, it looks unprofessional to personally attack someone (insted of the science), especially when what they are saying is based on official guidance in many places and locations in the world.

He could have done that, but it wouldn't have been what he wanted. Dr John Campbell's Youtube channel is apparently really popular and often referenced. Dr Yan Yu has apparently been asked about them and wanted to directly address them. Presumably he's not alone.

I can imagine vaccine-hesitant people being concerned about this and wanting to wait until they could be sure they could have a vaccination delivered with aspiration. The video seems to me to address that pretty well: don't wait!

The review you mention doesn't seem to me to support aspiration in vaccination. If anything it supports the suspicion that this is one of many practices that probably doesn't do any good. (I'm in favour of people who want this aspiration being able to ask for it, in the same way as I think people ought to be able to choose which vaccine they get among those approved. I just think Dr Campbell's jumped on this probably incorrect hypothesis and is probably helping to discourage some from being vaccinated.)

 

[Bruce Stephens]

I didn't like the tone of the video, seems he has a problem, with something that shouldn't be a problem. I don't see anything wrong with aspiration. Dr Yu first brings up how many videos Dr John Campbell has made about aspiration....so what?

I think probably because he thinks it's a marginal issue at best, so just doesn't deserve 5 videos (or however many it is). Especially with what seems like just a story (not any actual evidence).

He then talks about not basing the results of an experiment on one mouse experiment, but how many animals were the vaccines tested on before they tested on humans? None.

Which seems to be a false claim: https://fullfact.org/health/animal-testing-covid-vaccine/

 

[Bruce Stephens]

What is the false claim?

That the vaccines were tested on no animals before being tested on humans.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Where does it say the current vaccines were tested on animals before they were tested on humans? From what I understand the current vaccines were tested on animals at the same time as they tested on humans and not before.

Oh yes, you're right.

Chris Magee, head of policy and media at UK non-profit Understanding Animal Research, previously told Full Fact that in the case of Covid-19 vaccines, data already existed to indicate the vaccines were safe, which enabled researchers to run animal trials alongside the early stages of human trials.​