Austria planning mandatory vaccination for all, with prison for non-compliance.

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Amity Island said:
The trouble with that statement is, it completely ignores both natural innate immunity and naturally acquired immunity.
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It includes them, doesn't it? (I'm assuming "cured" means "natural" recovery from infection.)

(It doesn't (explicitly) include the possibility of being vaccinated and cured, or vaccinated and dead (or cured and dead), but all those will also happen.)
 
Amity Island said:
The trouble with that statement is, it completely ignores both natural innate immunity and naturally acquired immunity. Also the current set of vaccines do not provide sterilising immunity. I'm not saying don't get vaccinated, just that the science about immunity suggests otherwise.

As discussed in Dr John Campbells youtube video "Natural versus vaccine immunity" based on his evidence it's established that natural infection / immunity (for those unlucky enough to have caught the virus) will likely give them long lasting protection. But not only that (see Dr Campbells explanation in his youtube channel) that natural immunity not only gives long lasting immunity, it gives far wider immunity. Vaccines only produce an immune response to two antigens, the spike protein and receptor binding domain, whereas natural immunity provides protection from 20 different antigens, plus proteins, antibodies, memory t cells and memory b cells. See video below.

See extract below of studies on natural vs vaccine immunity:

BMJ paper

Several studies (in Qatar, England, Israel, and the US) have found infection rates at equally low levels among people who are fully vaccinated and those who have previously had covid-19. Cleveland Clinic surveyed its more than 50 000 employees to compare four groups based on history of SARS-CoV-2 infection and vaccination status. Not one of over 1300 unvaccinated employees who had been previously infected tested positive during the five months of the study. Researchers concluded that that cohort “are unlikely to benefit from covid-19 vaccination.” In Israel, researchers accessed a database of the entire population to compare the efficacy of vaccination with previous infection and found nearly identical numbers. “Our results question the need to vaccinate previously infected individuals,” they concluded.

CDC quoted this about the 4 studies. Under the heading of "comparison of infection and vaccine induced immune repsonse"

"A systematic review and meta-analysis including data from three vaccine efficacy trials and four observational studies from the US, Israel, and the United Kingdom, found no significant difference in the overall level of protection provided by infection as compared with protection provided by vaccination; this included studies from both prior to and during the period in which Delta was the predominant variant [79]. In this review, the randomized controlled trials appeared to show higher protection from mRNA vaccines whereas the observational studies appeared to show protection to be higher following infection.
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Of course it covers immunity.
You catch covid, you either recover or die.
You may catch it and be asymptomatic, you may spend months in ICU.
Or course you have different degrees of recovery, but that's the gamble you want to have.
I have no idea what the reference above is for?
Either you catch covid and recover apparently, or you have a vaccination.
Both apparently work just as well, as your quote shows.
Even though you decided to highlight the "observational" results, and ignored the randomized controlled trials that actually proved the opposite.
I'm good with that.
Especially as by your rules, my protection is doubled.
Once by the vaccine, then again when my natural immunity kicks in.

And so the German health minister agrees.
All you are missing out is the ones who caught covid and died,
He references them as well.
I don't want to be in that group particuarly.
 
Amity Island said:
No mention of natural immunity anywhere in the statement. It does mention being "cured" which infers some kind of treatment or course of action. Doesn't say "recovered" which implies either natural acquired, innate or immunity provided by vaccination.

Seems to be a complete ommision of both natural immunity and memory B and T cells in any press release about covid19. It's always vaccines and antibodies waining, never natural immunity and memory b and t cells.
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I don't really care if I'm called cured, recovered, treated, vaccinated, or immune.
The only one that would annoy me in that quote would be the last one.

And it's probably unwise to assume what a German Health minister means when he does a one liner in German, and it gets translated into English by a tabloid. I doubt he's going to give a lecture on the efficiency of vaccines stimulating B and T cell response.
With that, I wish you well with your experiment, and hope you do have an immune system that creates the right cells, within the needed time period.
After that, you will indeed have memory B and T cells.
From my point of view, if my immune system is as lazy as the rest of my body, and has the same quality of memory, I'm going for active B and T cells now, and antibodies all primed and waiting.
As I said, it would only be being called the last part of the quote that would annoy me.
 
travellor said:
And it's probably unwise to assume what a German Health minister means when he does a one liner in German, and it gets translated into English by a tabloid.
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I seem to remember hearing him say it in English, but regardless, I agree it's most likely a minor translation issue. I think most people understood what he meant.
 
Amity Island said:
@travellor You seem to think I am talking about myself in these discussions. If I am talking personally or about me I will use the "I" as I often do when replying to people's diabetes questions as it's my personal experience I am giving, otherwise all my points are only about what is said. All I am interested in are the facts or at least trying to get somewhere near to them, although, as @Bruce Stephens and @Docb quite rightly point out sometimes, is that there are nuances in facts and data.

When I hear someone say "free choice" or "perfectly free choice" we want to know what they mean by that. If someone says "No vaccination, no admittance to hospital" we want to know what science it's based on. My points are purely based on the reasons and facts behind such comments, I don't take this personally, nor would I resort to insults.

I'm not going to come on here and recommend either way about whether someone takes any medication, that's for them to make a free choice for themselves, as long as it is a free choice, not one based on a free donut.
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Ah, if Krispy Kreme did vaccinations.
Free choice, and a donut for the right one.
 
The thing is not everyone who comes up as vaccinated has had the jab. I was made aware in the summer of a loophole to get access to the NHS website. I was then showed how the person selected the vax of their choice, citing they took it. The person was charging £300 to do it. I said thanks, but no thanks... Just saying, this was a chap in the Security Industry.
 
I love how anti-vaxxers are deploying this freedumb-of-choice trope, as if there were such a thing as choices free of all exigencies. Tell that to poor old Buridan's ass!
 
rustee2011 said:
The thing is not everyone who comes up as vaccinated has had the jab. I was made aware in the summer of a loophole to get access to the NHS website. I was then showed how the person selected the vax of their choice, citing they took it. The person was charging £300 to do it. I said thanks, but no thanks... Just saying, this was a chap in the Security Industry.
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The main problem with that is covid can't read.
All that would have happened is you'd be £300 lighter when you caught it.
 
It seems the possibility of dying isn’t strong enough to persuade people to get vaccinated. The vast majority of folk in hospital, particularly the 30-50 age who are dying are unvaccinated. Nothing like taking your apparently informed consent to your grave.
 
travellor said:
Evolution in action.
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Well yeah but though it may benefit evolution it's a bit of a big step for most people to deliberately risk happening, usually. Be better if they just did it privately rather than being a burden on society at large, As I have already said - very selfish.
 
trophywench said:
Well yeah but though it may benefit evolution it's a bit of a big step for most people to deliberately risk happening, usually. Be better if they just did it privately rather than being a burden on society at large, As I have already said - very selfish.
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The anti vaxxers are (I think) mostly victims, though I find it hard to be sympathetic when they're also spreading the myths.

I think I just find the vaccine hesitant as weird: a year ago, sure, the vaccines were brand new so it's not odd to be wary, and maybe if enough other people them the virus will fade away (a bit selfish, admittedly, but rational). But we've had them over a year now. I mean, what more are we likely to find out about them that could make them riskier than this rather nasty virus?
 
Bruce Stephens said:
The anti vaxxers are (I think) mostly victims, though I find it hard to be sympathetic when they're also spreading the myths.

I think I just find the vaccine hesitant as weird: a year ago, sure, the vaccines were brand new so it's not odd to be wary, and maybe if enough other people them the virus will fade away (a bit selfish, admittedly, but rational). But we've had them over a year now. I mean, what more are we likely to find out about them that could make them riskier than this rather nasty virus?
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The depressing conclusion I come to is that lots of people are just a lot more stupid than you might have thought before all this.
 
Thinking back, Austria was the first Euro country to introduce mask mandates.

Apparently Germany is now mulling mandatory vaccination & the WHO is saying it should become a thing.
 
So he is arguing that vaccinations reduce the immune system and vaccinated health care workers become reinfected, whereas un vaccinated don't?
How many in each group died?
Or had to leave the profession because of serious illness?
If nothing, what is so special about his subject group? 74557, and not one single reinfection?
That's a massive number as other groups have definitely had reinfections?
Statistically, it's unbelievable.
The best defence for covid is not to be vaccinated, but get a job in healthcare instead?
(Actually, the answer is "74557 infection person days"
That's around just 350 people working for a standard working year without being infected again. Maybe the rest did get reinfected? Statistics eh?)

Have a read of it here.

www.medrxiv.org

Continued Effectiveness of COVID-19 Vaccination among Urban Healthcare Workers during Delta Variant Predominance

Background Data on COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness (VE) among healthcare workers (HCWs) during periods of delta variant predominance are limited. Methods We followed a population of urban Massachusetts HCWs (45% non-White) subject to epidemiologic surveillance. We accounted for covariates such...
www.medrxiv.org www.medrxiv.org

Look at the real numbers, then tell me vaccines don't work.
Not just one buzz line, that is actually out of context as well. They went on to get vaccines in reality. That's why the number of hours is so low.
 
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Amity Island said:
Again, I am not against vaccines, I will say that again, I am not against vaccines, and those who haven't had covid, will likely prefer to take a vacccine to reduce the risk of being hospitalised.
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You'd hope so, and yet there are plenty of people who are not vaccinated. I don't think all of those have had covid (though that will presumably end up being the case).

From a government's position it's surely simple: you want everybody (except a small number of people who're likely to be harmed by that) to get vaccinated. If they've never been infected before, they'll get some (really pretty good) protection against infection, sickness, and death. If they have been infected, they'll get improved protection against infection, sickness, and death.

There's no downside: the government (and your employer, anybody who owns anywhere where you go etc.) wants you to get vaccinated if you aren't yet. (Where there are shortages of vaccines things can be different, but in the UK that's no longer the case.)

Maybe there's a case for not being quite so worried about people who've been infected sufficiently the they have good immunity. On the other hand you really don't want to incentivise people to get infected instead of getting vaccinated (or instead of waiting a bit to get vaccinated) because we know that some people will. And there's no advantage in having people deliberately not get vaccinated. (There's an apparently very small number of people who really aren't advised to take these vaccines, and that's something we need to live with. But it's said to be very small.)
 
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