Zoe recommending libre for non diabetics

[AndBreathe]

I'd never want to go back to finger pricking. The libre is the best thing invented since insulin. Its transformed my life. I'm concerned about supply issues if non-diabetics start using them.

Indeed, so highly desirable.

Since it went onto retail sales, as opposed to the earlier days, it has been available to anyone with the cash to cover it. I doubt there will be hoards of worried we’ll, desperate to find a new worry, via Libre.

 

[Inka]

Sorry, but I still don't think a CGM is crucial. As I understand it, the vast majority of those using insulin are hypo aware, so do have clues. If, say, you have a sensor failure, you will be very unlikely to be in immediate danger.

On that basis, I reiterate, a CGM is highly desirable, not crucial.

Maybe I'm a horrid, heartless person. Rhetorical.

It’s not just to do with being hypo aware. Hypos don’t always wake people from sleep. So yes, it is a bit heartless to think you know anything at all about the possible consequences of that and how that makes people on insulin feel. You’ve also, of course, forgotten parents of children with Type 1.

I don’t think you’re horrid or heartless, just thoughtless and not understanding what you haven’t experienced. Or else you work for ZOE.

 

[Robin]

Indeed, so highly desirable.

Ask any parent of someone found dead in bed, or even parents of young people with diabetes, who know it’s a possibility, whether they would regard a CGM that might have prevented the death as desirable or essential, and you might see where we are coming from.

https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/pdf/10.4103/2321-0656.140880.pdf

That aside, my mental well being has been so immeasurably better since CGMs came on the scene, that I’d feel a pit had opened up in front of me if I now had to do without. No doubt I'd survive, but who wants survival when they could have living a life.

 

[Satan’s little helper]

On the whole Zoe “thing.” I see no issue with someone in a debate playing “devils advocate.” (After following this topic, so far.)

The whole Zoe app approach from what I see online. Reminds me of a comedy series “Nathan Barley” from 20 years ago when a couple went into a trendy restaurant where a finger reading device told them what they needed to eat (according to deficiencies.) on the menu. It was satire. 20 years later? “Zoe.”

I do admit sensors have allowed me to correct any impending hypo, before I detect & acting a baffoon. (Like the old days.)
But I am still the generation that should some sort of “EMP” assault happen? I can still manage fairly well as long as I still have the means to inject insulin.

 

[Eddy Edson]

My brief summary: CGM's are at least very useful for most insulin-dependent diabetics & at best useless for most non-diabetics.

 

[nonethewiser]

CGMs are undoubtedly a very good and convenient way of testing, but I would argue crucial.

Well parents of very young children who can't sleep at night worrying about hypo's would argue differently, likewise those who have elderly parents who have type 1 who can check on their phones to see if there loved ones are same, not forgetting those who have learning disabilities & have difficulty understanding critical situations.

Could go on & on but as your someone who isn't insulin dependent then its unlikely your going to change your mindset.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

I understand where you are coming from I think @AndBreathe

‘CGM for all’ (with T1) is a very new phenomenon. I went several decades with CGM being either an inaccessible pipe dream, or something that had not even been invented yet. And I was involved in developing the NICE guidance for adults with T1 as recently as 2015 where the clinical evidence / health economic modelling / cost-benefit analysis still couldn’t be made to balance the books, even with a very pro-CGM panel of clinicians and researchers.

I started using CGM (well, Libre 1) 10 years ago. But by that time I’d already clocked up 20 years without, and was managing just fine.

Are they hugely helpful and beneficial? Yes. Have my results improved and my hypos reduced? Yes. Do I find alerts and alarms helpful and reassuring? Yes!

But if the Zombie apocalypse starts tomorrow, and I only have limited items I can carry I’d take hypodermics and insulin over CGM every time. Insulin is crucial. CGM is a nice addition, but I can manage without it.

 

[Kol]

Libre was in short supply for some time, after launch, but Abbott’s supply chains seem more robust these days.

Yes, for the current demand, but since the internet can reach quite a large audience who knows?

 

[AndBreathe]

I understand where you are coming from I think @AndBreathe

‘CGM for all’ (with T1) is a very new phenomenon. I went several decades with CGM being either an inaccessible pipe dream, or something that had not even been invented yet. And I was involved in developing the NICE guidance for adults with T1 as recently as 2015 where the clinical evidence / health economic modelling / cost-benefit analysis still couldn’t be made to balance the books, even with a very pro-CGM panel of clinicians and researchers.

I started using CGM (well, Libre 1) 10 years ago. But by that time I’d already clocked up 20 years without, and was managing just fine.

Are they hugely helpful and beneficial? Yes. Have my results improved and my hypos reduced? Yes. Do I find alerts and alarms helpful and reassuring? Yes!

But if the Zombie apocalypse starts tomorrow, and I only have limited items I can carry I’d take hypodermics and insulin over CGM every time. Insulin is crucial. CGM is a nice addition, but I can manage without it.

For me, crucial is in the absence of CGM = head to A&E. Do not pass go. Do not collect £200. Go to A&E.

Now, I appreciate no CGM is bound to be uncomfortable, or concerning, but isn’t an 11pm schlep to A&E in al be likely very rare exceptions.

 

[AndBreathe]

Yes, for the current demand, but since the internet can reach quite a large audience who knows?

I feel, the reality of life is there won’t be hoards of Johnny Normals out there who will pay over £100 each month, every month.

Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[Kol]

but the necessary/unnecessary debate is much bigger than Libre.

Not really since the 'want' of some should not outweigh the 'need' of others, it is just selfish and wrong, that can be applied to anything in life.
Covid toilet rolls !
Holiday homes
Fuel supply crisis
and so on.

 

[Inka]

Crucial doesn’t just mean ‘necessary’, as in ‘couldn’t function without it’, it also means ‘extremely important’. A CGM is extremely important. You’ve only considered part of the definition, andbreathe.

Note - ‘crucial’ ie very important. Not ‘highly desirable’, thanks, that makes it sound like a prized sports car or a nice house.

 

[Satan’s little helper]

Yes, for the current demand, but since the internet can reach quite a large audience who knows?

Back when I was self funding. Most chemists had a set amount held back to be put up for prescription. I was only sold surplus over the counter. Sometimes, though the chemist felt I should be prescribed at the time. They reluctantly either declined or let me take just one.

Looking at the Zoe kit which seems to cost £300! With a monthly membership charge of 25 quid for app support? (I won’t link out of respect for forum advertising protocols.) it is said the “kit” consists of,

• “You are sent a kit that contains a blood sugar monitor, blood fat test, stool sample test and some food to test your gut transit time.”

It seems like these subscribers only get one sensor.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

It seems like these subscribers only get one sensor.

That's my understanding too. I think some sports people have been using them a bit more, but I doubt any of them have been using them continuously. I really doubt this kind of use is likely to cause supply problems except very limited short term ones.

I worry much more that people might be encouraged to use them and think they're getting value out of them when in fact they just aren't.

 

[Amity Island]

Insulin is crucial. CGM is a nice addition, but I can manage without it.

Not to detract in anyway from your ability (inc years of testing, experience and dedication) to manage without cgm. I see cgm beyond being able to "manage" diabetes. The libre give diabetics some normality, reassurance, control, certainty and peace of mind, things which were impossibe without cgm.

Yes, I could manage without the libre, but I want to live, some joie de vivre 🙂.

 

[Satan’s little helper]

That's my understanding too. I think some sports people have been using them a bit more, but I doubt any of them have been using them continuously. I really doubt this kind of use is likely to cause supply problems except very limited short term ones.

I worry much more that people might be encouraged to use them and think they're getting value out of them when in fact they just aren't.

I’m not sure what kind of deal “Zoe limited” have with Abbott. Just looked at a YouTube unboxing of this “kit.” (From 10 months ago.) Looks like it could be a Libre 3 due to the off centre hole on the sensor. There is also a yellow Zoe logo patch to be slapped over the top. Which to my eye could suffocate the “breath hole” on the sensor? The cover patches didn’t seem to be incorporated with the sensor box. More thrown in as an afterthought on the sensor section of this package.
There was also 5 muffins in the box to be eaten 3 breakfast & 2 for lunch. Supposedly to check gut health & BG response? Along with countless booklets & a poo test kit.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Please can we keep our differences of opinion over semantics and the value of different technologies friendly.

It is fine for some to consider something a vital part of their toolkit, while others don’t put it in that category.

These are just differences of opinion, and aren’t limited to different ways of thinking based on “type” or lived experience. Just because diabetes is complicated and difficult, and we are all different.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Not to detract in anyway from your ability (inc years of testing, experience and dedication) to manage without cgm. I see cgm beyond being able to "manage" diabetes. The libre give diabetics some normality, reassurance, control, certainty and peace of mind, things which were impossibe without cgm.

Yes, I could manage without the libre, but I want to live, some joie de vivre 🙂.

Yes I am absolutely sure the ‘quality of life’ benefits (called QALYs in health-economic assessment) figured highly in the recent wider roll-out of the tech.

And QoL gains have also translated into better results for areas that adopted the rollout earlier.

 

[AndBreathe]

Not really since the 'want' of some should not outweigh the 'need' of others, it is just selfish and wrong, that can be applied to anything in life.
Covid toilet rolls !
Holiday homes
Fuel supply crisis
and so on.

Of course. There will always be those who go to extremes, but I stand by my belief there will be few who would pay £1364.74 per annum "just to know". There will or would be some, but few.

Frankly, make things freely available, and no big deal and fewer want to spend their own, tax paid income on it.

There are more CGMs and such coming to market. Competition is good for both availability but theoretically pricing.

 

[Eddy Edson]

I’m not sure what kind of deal “Zoe limited” have with Abbott. Just looked at a YouTube unboxing of this “kit.” (From 10 months ago.) Looks like it could be a Libre 3 due to the off centre hole on the sensor. There is also a yellow Zoe logo patch to be slapped over the top. Which to my eye could suffocate the “breath hole” on the sensor? The cover patches didn’t seem to be incorporated with the sensor box. More thrown in as an afterthought on the sensor section of this package.
There was also 5 muffins in the box to be eaten 3 breakfast & 2 for lunch. Supposedly to check gut health & BG response? Along with countless booklets & a poo test kit.

I feel compelled to change my assessment of ZOE, viz:

At best useless, except you get muffins.