What is remission/reversal of type 2?

[EmmaL76]

At 29 weeks there is still time for her baby to turn even without external cephalic version, although I'm not sure if they'll want to do ECV with placental insufficiency. As there's family history of babies remaining breech she may want to start preparing herself for the possibility of a planned c section. Hospitals have been generally recommending c section for breech for long enough now that there are very few midwives with experience of a natural breech birth. I hope the placenta keeps going long enough for her to get to a gestation whereby baby doesn't need neonatal unit care ::hugs::

she’s having growths scans every couple of weeks we were quite surprised when they said baby was breech as midwives said defo head first. She’s being montitored a lot as baby heart rate has been a bit erratic. They said they may induce her at 37 weeks. I always thought that babies could turn at any point but her baby is already 3.5 lbs apparently so I think they are thinking it might get too chubby lol, daughter is adamant she does not want a section. I’ve done it both way and neither are particularly pleasant If it stays breech then that will be 4 generations of breech on my side (to my knowledge ) 3 generations of pre eclampsia I’m hoping she won’t make it 4 but it’s a possibility.

 

[42istheanswer]

she’s having growths scans every couple of weeks we were quite surprised when they said baby was breech as midwives said defo head first. She’s being montitored a lot as baby heart rate has been a bit erratic. They said they may induce her at 37 weeks. I always thought that babies could turn at any point but her baby is already 3.5 lbs apparently so I think they are thinking it might get too chubby lol, daughter is adamant she does not want a section. I’ve done it both way and neither are particularly pleasant If it stays breech then that will be 4 generations of breech on my side (to my knowledge ) 3 generations of pre eclampsia I’m hoping she won’t make it 4 but it’s a possibility.

Odd how sometimes a bum can feel like a head and vice versa isn't it that's why I was having the scan at 36 weeks because my midwife wasn't certain whether it was bum or head she could feel and didn't want to take the risk it was head. Second babies are more likely to turn at any point than first babies, uterus tends to be a bit more stretchy the second time around, usually once first baby engages they don't disengage without external help.
My induced birth was better than my first (prolonged, mismanaged labour ending in forceps). All the research (and most of the mothers I have spoken to who have had both types of section, which is a lot) says that in most cases a planned section is easier to recover from than an emergency section. I'm not sure if there is enough evidence about why (whether it's the psychological preparedness or not having been through potentially a long labour first). I appreciate the feeling of not wanting a section, I was determined to try to avoid one (although by the time I said I couldn't keep going, an hour into pushing, with my first I was so tired that I had forgotten there were any options between natural birth and caesarean and thought that I would have to have a section, and was quite relieved when they brought out the stirrups and I remembered that there were forceps and ventouse as options) but personally I wouldn't want to be any midwife or consultant's first (unsupervised) natural breech birth either if where she plans to give birth don't have anyone experienced available to at least supervise/oversee.

(To maybe bring it a little back on topic - sorry to people who don't want to read birth stuff - my practice nurse thinks that despite passing that OGTT, I probably did develop gestational diabetes. I continued to have glucose in my urine for the rest of the pregnancy - a further 6 weeks - but they didn't bother to do any more testing as midwife said by that stage of pregnancy - next routine test was 38 weeks I think - there wasn't much point in identifying it. My first baby was over 9lb/4kg and second wasn't much under, so possibly I had it towards the end with both.)

 

[Burylancs]

This might seem an obvious thing, but I have read different interpretations and I wondered which is correct…

Some say that it is lowering BG to ‘normal’ levels without any medication, whereas others suggest it is simply bringing it down to that level - even if still taking meds.

Also, is it true that as I’ve now been diagnosed as ‘diabetic’ that will always remain with me, even if I manage to get my levels back into the normal range?

Still coming to terms with the diagnosis, and trying to understand the situation and the challenge ahead!

Hi and Happy Christmas

'reversal' of Type 2 is Fake News. A secure diagnosis of Type 2 is not reversible, it',s a chronic longterm condition in the present state of knowledge about it ( i.e. not very much). 'remission' is an inappropriate term to use with Type 2 Diabetes which has only cone into use in the last five years or so. Control was the concept for eighty years before that. 'Remission' inappropriate because it feeds the denial and delusion of newly dxed T2s. It suggests that Type 2vis something and nothing and can rasybe soryed out. In addition most remission propaganda is dangerpus because it seems to be based on the idea that T2s shouldn't be taking medication ( perhaps Banting and Best should hand their Nobel Prizes back).

It's astonishing that Diabetes Uk is now selling books that advpcaye 'reversall'. It's testimony to how far Diabetes UK has sunk in the last few years - it seems to have turned itsrlf into a body campaigning on peripheral issues as far as T2 is cocerned such as low carbing, reversal, remission, prevention etc.

Control. Control Control is the mantra. Getting the HbA1c into a range recommended for your age, stage, weight and duration of diabetes by any means necessary. Type 2 Diabetes is progressively damaging and debilitating and the sufferer needsto take it on with all guns blazing. A sustainable diet and general regime is essential, there no easy solutions. Once someone has been diagnosed T2 then terms like teversal, remission, pre-diabetic, non-disbetic eyc are irrelevant.

The NHS and Diabetes UK are foing a great fisservice to the T2 community by prattling about 'remission', it promises more than it can ever deliver.

 

[bulkbiker]

The NHS and Diabetes UK are foing a great fisservice to the T2 community by prattling about 'remission',

Interested to know how you would describe someone unmedicated with 7 years of HbA1c levels lower than the average population?
Said person "passed" an OGTT some years ago .

 

[Burylancs]

Interested to know how you would describe someone unmedicated with 7 years of HbA1c levels lower than the average population?
Said person "passed" an OGTT some years ago .

A Type 2 Diabetic with Good Control.

 

[EmmaL76]

Odd how sometimes a bum can feel like a head and vice versa isn't it that's why I was having the scan at 36 weeks because my midwife wasn't certain whether it was bum or head she could feel and didn't want to take the risk it was head. Second babies are more likely to turn at any point than first babies, uterus tends to be a bit more stretchy the second time around, usually once first baby engages they don't disengage without external help.
My induced birth was better than my first (prolonged, mismanaged labour ending in forceps). All the research (and most of the mothers I have spoken to who have had both types of section, which is a lot) says that in most cases a planned section is easier to recover from than an emergency section. I'm not sure if there is enough evidence about why (whether it's the psychological preparedness or not having been through potentially a long labour first). I appreciate the feeling of not wanting a section, I was determined to try to avoid one (although by the time I said I couldn't keep going, an hour into pushing, with my first I was so tired that I had forgotten there were any options between natural birth and caesarean and thought that I would have to have a section, and was quite relieved when they brought out the stirrups and I remembered that there were forceps and ventouse as options) but personally I wouldn't want to be any midwife or consultant's first (unsupervised) natural breech birth either if where she plans to give birth don't have anyone experienced available to at least supervise/oversee.

(To maybe bring it a little back on topic - sorry to people who don't want to read birth stuff - my practice nurse thinks that despite passing that OGTT, I probably did develop gestational diabetes. I continued to have glucose in my urine for the rest of the pregnancy - a further 6 weeks - but they didn't bother to do any more testing as midwife said by that stage of pregnancy - next routine test was 38 weeks I think - there wasn't much point in identifying it. My first baby was over 9lb/4kg and second wasn't much under, so possibly I had it towards the end with both.)

We sound quite similar, I also passed the GTT and it was never mentioned again. I only just passed though and I continued to have sugar in urine during most of my pregnancies. I had suction and forceps after induction for preeclampsia with my first and had to sit in a rubber ring because my last 3 were feet first and I was carrying group b step which Was nearly fatal for my first daughter the sections were all planned however I went into spontaneous early labour with 2nd so emergency c section and 4th I got preeclampsia again so another emergency. Birth weights got higher the more I had last one 9.5lbs. I was never ever told to keep an eye on my blood sugar in the future

 

[Kreator]

The NHS and Diabetes UK are foing a great fisservice to the T2 community by prattling about 'remission', it promises more than it can ever deliver.

I hear what you're saying exactly, however...

Whilst some might be looking for that 'quick fix', most people realise that for 'Remission' or 'Reversal', you have to change your lifestyle forever, and are perfectly happy to do so...

I think your comments only serve to 'knock back' many people from even trying in the first place, besides, if Remission or Reversal isn't actually achieved, there are benefits in the long term by maintaining better control...

 

[EmmaL76]

I hear what you're saying exactly, however...

Whilst some might be looking for that 'quick fix', most people realise that for 'Remission' or 'Reversal', you have to change your lifestyle forever, and are perfectly happy to do so...

I think your comments only serve to 'knock back' many people from even trying in the first place, besides, if Remission or Reversal isn't actually achieved, there are benefits in the long term by maintaining better control...

Agreed, I also agree with the majority of what @Burylancs has to say. It’s kinda blunt and disheartening but probably a fact most need to face to achieve better health. I also
Like to think that we just don’t have enough evidence/research to understand what it’s possible to achieve. Maybe there could be some regeneration if the body is allowed recover from being overworked. I dunno, just something I like to think. Take it seriously but never lose hope is my message

 

[Kreator]

Agreed, I also agree with the majority of what @Burylancs has to say. It’s kinda blunt and disheartening but probably a fact most need to face to achieve better health. I also
Like to think that we just don’t have enough evidence/research to understand what it’s possible to achieve. Maybe there could be some regeneration if the body is allowed recover from being overworked. I dunno, just something I like to think. Take it seriously but never lose hope is my message

That’s a much better way of putting it, I’d like to think so too😉

 

[bulkbiker]

It’s kinda blunt and disheartening but probably a fact most need to face to achieve better health.

But some of us have put a load of health conditions "into remission" and got "better health"
Sleep apnea
Acid reflux
Morbid Obesity
Needing to pee every 10 minutes
Breathlessness
Hypertension

Should we not celebrate those things?

I look upon my T2 diagnosis as the wake up call that has added many years to my lifespan (or healthspan).
Why should that not be "remission" from blindness and amputation and all drug free.

 

[harbottle]

Hi and Happy Christmas

'reversal' of Type 2 is Fake News. A secure diagnosis of Type 2 is not reversible, it',s a chronic longterm condition in the present state of knowledge about it ( i.e. not very much). 'remission' is an inappropriate term to use with Type 2 Diabetes which has only cone into use in the last five years or so. Control was the concept for eighty years before that. 'Remission' inappropriate because it feeds the denial and delusion of newly dxed T2s. It suggests that Type 2vis something and nothing and can rasybe soryed out. In addition most remission propaganda is dangerpus because it seems to be based on the idea that T2s shouldn't be taking medication ( perhaps Banting and Best should hand their Nobel Prizes back).

It's astonishing that Diabetes Uk is now selling books that advpcaye 'reversall'. It's testimony to how far Diabetes UK has sunk in the last few years - it seems to have turned itsrlf into a body campaigning on peripheral issues as far as T2 is cocerned such as low carbing, reversal, remission, prevention etc.

Control. Control Control is the mantra. Getting the HbA1c into a range recommended for your age, stage, weight and duration of diabetes by any means necessary. Type 2 Diabetes is progressively damaging and debilitating and the sufferer needsto take it on with all guns blazing. A sustainable diet and general regime is essential, there no easy solutions. Once someone has been diagnosed T2 then terms like teversal, remission, pre-diabetic, non-disbetic eyc are irrelevant.

The NHS and Diabetes UK are foing a great fisservice to the T2 community by prattling about 'remission', it promises more than it can ever deliver.

No one is telling anyone to stop taking medication. Not sure where you're getting that idea from. What has T2 diabetics being able to control their condition have to do with the inventors of insulin throwing away their novel prize? What a weird comment.

Some people can reverse T2 and restore their insulin production (The work at Newcastle shows this, as does the evidence from people who have bariatric surgery)

Some people can control it with diet and lifestyle changes, and some cannot,

This article discusses it and references some research:

Is Type 2 Diabetes Reversible?

Is type 2 diabetes reversible? The answer isn't as simple as you'd hope. It comes down to the difference between insulin resistance and insulin deficiency.

diabetesstrong.com

Quite a lot is known about the condition, which is complex. Certainly more than when my Dad (Who died aged sixty in 2003, possible from complications due to his blood sugar being out of control.)

 

[harbottle]

But some of us have put a load of health conditions "into remission" and got "better health"
Sleep apnea
Acid reflux
Morbid Obesity
Needing to pee every 10 minutes
Breathlessness
Hypertension

Should we not celebrate those things?

I look upon my T2 diagnosis as the wake up call that has added many years to my lifespan (or healthspan).
Why should that not be "remission" from blindness and amputation and all drug free.

Exactly.
When I was diagnosed last year I'd felt awful for around six months, with crippling leg pains, no sleep, high heart rate and blood pressure plus a lot of heartburn. I felt so bad I couldn't climb the ladder to get into my Attic 'study' and had no energy to do any of the hobbies I had. People at work said I looked like like a ghost.

Within 3 months of doing a low carb diet (Thanks to the work by David Unwin) I felt so much better and had lost a lot of weight. Blood sugar is under control, and I've gone back to my old self with a vengeance.

Whether it's reversed or not, I don't care, if it means sticking to a low carb diet, I don't mind, as I feel so much better now.

 

[Drummer]

Hi and Happy Christmas

'reversal' of Type 2 is Fake News. A secure diagnosis of Type 2 is not reversible, it',s a chronic longterm condition in the present state of knowledge about it ( i.e. not very much). 'remission' is an inappropriate term to use with Type 2 Diabetes which has only cone into use in the last five years or so. Control was the concept for eighty years before that. 'Remission' inappropriate because it feeds the denial and delusion of newly dxed T2s. It suggests that Type 2vis something and nothing and can rasybe soryed out. In addition most remission propaganda is dangerpus because it seems to be based on the idea that T2s shouldn't be taking medication ( perhaps Banting and Best should hand their Nobel Prizes back).

It's astonishing that Diabetes Uk is now selling books that advpcaye 'reversall'. It's testimony to how far Diabetes UK has sunk in the last few years - it seems to have turned itsrlf into a body campaigning on peripheral issues as far as T2 is cocerned such as low carbing, reversal, remission, prevention etc.

Control. Control Control is the mantra. Getting the HbA1c into a range recommended for your age, stage, weight and duration of diabetes by any means necessary. Type 2 Diabetes is progressively damaging and debilitating and the sufferer needsto take it on with all guns blazing. A sustainable diet and general regime is essential, there no easy solutions. Once someone has been diagnosed T2 then terms like teversal, remission, pre-diabetic, non-disbetic eyc are irrelevant.

The NHS and Diabetes UK are foing a great fisservice to the T2 community by prattling about 'remission', it promises more than it can ever deliver.

If I was to be tested now it would show normal numbers - 5 years after being 'a very bad diabetic' according to my GP, and being sent documentation telling me to expect it to get worse.
I achieve this by eating a low carb diet, which is very tasty, varied and makes me feel great even though I am 71 years old. i don't take any medication except for Thyroxine, which has been reduced recently as it seems to be getting better - I'd probably have never started with low thyroid activity if not pushed to eat all those 'healthy' carbs.
I can't think what I am denying or how it can be deluded to consider having normal numbers very relevant indeed.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Hi and Happy Christmas

'reversal' of Type 2 is Fake News. A secure diagnosis of Type 2 is not reversible, it',s a chronic longterm condition in the present state of knowledge about it ( i.e. not very much). 'remission' is an inappropriate term to use with Type 2 Diabetes which has only cone into use in the last five years or so. Control was the concept for eighty years before that. 'Remission' inappropriate because it feeds the denial and delusion of newly dxed T2s.

I understand that you have a very particular set of definitions which you allow yourself @Burylancs but it is important to recognise that understanding of T2, the mechanics behind it, and what is and isn’t possible is changing and moving forward all the time.

And researchers are making important discoveries all the time, particularly recently. Including this from Prof Taylor’s work which identifies mechanisms for recovery of beta cell function.

https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/T2D%20pathologic%20basis.pdf

Which concludes:

“Type 2 diabetes may now be seen as a potentially reversible state associated with longstanding nutrient overload in susceptible individuals. The b-cell dysfunction and loss of end-differentiated b-cell phenotype can be restored by substantial weight loss. After approx 10 years, the onward march of b-cell dedifferentiation appears likely to precipitate irreversible loss of insulin secretion unless a substantial decrease in body weight is achieved.”

 

[EmmaL76]

I understand that you have a very particular set of definitions which you allow yourself @Burylancs but it is important to recognise that understanding of T2, the mechanics behind it, and what is and isn’t possible is changing and moving forward all the time.

And researchers are making important discoveries all the time, particularly recently. Including this from Prof Taylor’s work which identifies mechanisms for recovery of beta cell function.

https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/T2D%20pathologic%20basis.pdf

Which concludes:

“Type 2 diabetes may now be seen as a potentially reversible state associated with longstanding nutrient overload in susceptible individuals. The b-cell dysfunction and loss of end-differentiated b-cell phenotype can be restored by substantial weight loss. After approx 10 years, the onward march of b-cell dedifferentiation appears likely to precipitate irreversible loss of insulin secretion unless a substantial decrease in body weight is achieved.”

I love this post.

 

[Burylancs]

I understand that you have a very particular set of definitions which you allow yourself @Burylancs but it is important to recognise that understanding of T2, the mechanics behind it, and what is and isn’t possible is changing and moving forward all the time.

And researchers are making important discoveries all the time, particularly recently. Including this from Prof Taylor’s work which identifies mechanisms for recovery of beta cell function.

https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/T2D%20pathologic%20basis.pdf

Which concludes:

“Type 2 diabetes may now be seen as a potentially reversible state associated with longstanding nutrient overload in susceptible individuals. The b-cell dysfunction and loss of end-differentiated b-cell phenotype can be restored by substantial weight loss. After approx 10 years, the onward march of b-cell dedifferentiation appears likely to precipitate irreversible loss of insulin secretion unless a substantial decrease in body weight is achieved.”

Thanks for the link I'll print it off and read it in detail. I hope its better than Taylor's usual stuff - claims amd assertions with very little evidence and all seemingly run on Confirmation Bias.

The diet he advocated in his big experiment ( 50% calories from carbs, 10- 20 from protein and 20-30 from fats) was innumerate nonsense. If you tried 50/15/25 it would leave you needing 10% of your nutrition from Fresh Air !

I understand that you have a very particular set of definitions which you allow yourself @Burylancs but it is important to recognise that understanding of T2, the mechanics behind it, and what is and isn’t possible is changing and moving forward all the time.

And researchers are making important discoveries all the time, particularly recently. Including this from Prof Taylor’s work which identifies mechanisms for recovery of beta cell function.

https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/T2D%20pathologic%20basis.pdf

Which concludes:

“Type 2 diabetes may now be seen as a potentially reversible state associated with longstanding nutrient overload in susceptible individuals. The b-cell dysfunction and loss of end-differentiated b-cell phenotype can be restored by substantial weight loss. After approx 10 years, the onward march of b-cell dedifferentiation appears likely to precipitate irreversible loss of insulin secretion unless a substantial decrease in body weight is achieved.”

I understand that you have a very particular set of definitions which you allow yourself @Burylancs but it is important to recognise that understanding of T2, the mechanics behind it, and what is and isn’t possible is changing and moving forward all the time.

And researchers are making important discoveries all the time, particularly recently. Including this from Prof Taylor’s work which identifies mechanisms for recovery of beta cell function.

https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/T2D%20pathologic%20basis.pdf

Which concludes:

“Type 2 diabetes may now be seen as a potentially reversible state associated with longstanding nutrient overload in susceptible individuals. The b-cell dysfunction and loss of end-differentiated b-cell phenotype can be restored by substantial weight loss. After approx 10 years, the onward march of b-cell dedifferentiation appears likely to precipitate irreversible loss of insulin secretion unless a substantial decrease in body weight is achieved.”

 

[AndBreathe]

Thanks for the link I'll print it off and read it in detail. I hope its better than Taylor's usual stuff - claims amd assertions with very little evidence and all seemingly run on Confirmation Bias.

The diet he advocated in his big experiment ( 50% calories from carbs, 10- 20 from protein and 20-30 from fats) was innumerate nonsense. If you tried 50/15/25 it would leave you needing 10% of your nutrition from Fresh Air !

My thoughts on Professor Taylor go wider that his assertion that if you starve yourself for a while it'll all be better (Yes, I do know that is an interpretation of his work.). My biggest takeaway from it is he has begun to drive a wedge into the established thinking that T2 is a one-way street to progression to chronic ill-health (if it hasn't already got there), and diagnosis is pretty much as good as it gets.

His work gave hope. HOPE is very important factor in life and management of unwanted conditions. Drs Jen and David Unwin have done some interesting work in hope.

I didn't use Professor Taylor's method to shift my A1c from 73 to 37 in under 4 months, along with multiple other physically evident and biochemical improvements.

Over the 9-and-a-bit years since my T2 diagnosis my A1c has never gone over 34, and as low as 29, without too much hardship. The way I eat now (reduced carb) is the way I eat. It isn't a diet. It isn't about what I can't have. It's about fuelling myself well and living my best life. If that means I never eat bread, and such like again (I gave it up when I went low carb, but the nail in the coffin was the Endo telling me to banish gluten), I'm absolutely at one with that.

Last week I had a tel con with a consultant to discuss some bloods I'd recently had done after a metabolic bone health clinic review. I had had some others done for my GP and another clinic. She commented on the breadth of bloods and how great they are were.

I'll take that and get on with living my best life. I've never been into labels. Whether it be T2 or T2 in remission/operational cure (can be thus in the US after 5yrs of non-medicated A1cs under 42), I can live without them. I am AndBreathe, living my best life.

 

[Swilko]

Hi and Happy Christmas

'reversal' of Type 2 is Fake News. A secure diagnosis of Type 2 is not reversible, it',s a chronic longterm condition in the present state of knowledge about it ( i.e. not very much). 'remission' is an inappropriate term to use with Type 2 Diabetes which has only cone into use in the last five years or so. Control was the concept for eighty years before that. 'Remission' inappropriate because it feeds the denial and delusion of newly dxed T2s. It suggests that Type 2vis something and nothing and can rasybe soryed out. In addition most remission propaganda is dangerpus because it seems to be based on the idea that T2s shouldn't be taking medication ( perhaps Banting and Best should hand their Nobel Prizes back).

It's astonishing that Diabetes Uk is now selling books that advpcaye 'reversall'. It's testimony to how far Diabetes UK has sunk in the last few years - it seems to have turned itsrlf into a body campaigning on peripheral issues as far as T2 is cocerned such as low carbing, reversal, remission, prevention etc.

Control. Control Control is the mantra. Getting the HbA1c into a range recommended for your age, stage, weight and duration of diabetes by any means necessary. Type 2 Diabetes is progressively damaging and debilitating and the sufferer needsto take it on with all guns blazing. A sustainable diet and general regime is essential, there no easy solutions. Once someone has been diagnosed T2 then terms like teversal, remission, pre-diabetic, non-disbetic eyc are irrelevant.

The NHS and Diabetes UK are foing a great fisservice to the T2 community by prattling about 'remission', it promises more than it can ever deliver.

Hi and a very Merry Christmas to everyone. May i suggest that I have completely reversed my condition and do not consider myself controlled. It might be hard for you to believe as I myself am astounded with my own data. I have never dieted except for a brief few days when my dietician suggested portion control but I found it too inconvenient and therefore stopped. I was diagnosed in February 2014 with a HbA1c of 86 and was prescribed glicazide which I stopped in June 2016 due to frequent hypos. No other diabetes medication has been prescribed since then and yet my HbA1c readings has been reasonably normal culminating in October 2022 with a reading of 41. My way of eating is at best the same as before my diabetes diagnosis. I am convinced that more is to be learned about diabetes and I hope to play my part in contributing any information I hold.

 

[Sarahp]

I did manage to go into remission but due to other GI conditions relapsed as put on a low residue diet, still trying to get back there and weight loss happening slowly but surely.