Well, this is a surprise.....

Don't know. I only started testing myself 20 minutes ago(!) My tendency to get "hangry" has been well-noted by friends and colleagues. People wanting something from me would ask "has he eaten recently?". To the answer "no" they would come via the canteen. The hangry phase is closely followed by an advancing migraine.

Ah sorry! I’d missed that you had only just started checking. :D

Will be interesting to see what your levels are doing, now that you have the ability to do so!

Might help add to the picture of what’s been happening in the past, and whether your sensations have been related to glucose variations or something else.
 
Thank you. I have been granted a free CGM test patch for 14 days which is nice of Freestyle Libre. Hopefully that will give me enough information to see what food is doing what to my system. Should arrive in a few days.

I have also acquired a fingerprick device. When one is just monitoring, is the best plan to take a fasting reading every day? I know that when I have done a non-fasting glucose test in the past I was always high, but when I drove hypoglycaemically (therefore very slowly) in for the test it always came out fine.
Hello @NewDawn,
In a reply to someone else about trying to make full use of CGM, I offered the following comments:

Hello @foodismedicine, welcome to the Forum. I agree there is benefit from trying the Libre 2 on a free trial. But, and I'm not remotely medically qualified to offer anything other than a suggestion, I would spend a month (at least) using a meter with test strips to get a sense of what my BG is routinely doing before trialling the 14 day CGM.

My logic is that first any CGM should be checked against some fp tests to be sure the CGM readings from interstitial bloods are close to actual BG results from fps. Using test strips and a meter does need learning a bit of technique to make that a smooth and simple process. During the 14 day CGM trial, if a CGM reading seems really wrong (high or low), then it is normal to do an fp to verify that possible rogue result. Consequently the benefit of the 14 days of CGM data could be "watered down" by needing to first faff around with learning how to get fp results.

Secondly, I think if you've got a months worth of fp readings you will have a good sense of what your CGM readings might look like. Your spot results a few times daily would make a lot more sense once seen on a CGM plot. This basic understanding could allow you to quickly focus on meals or specific foods that give you BG spikes. Or find out how exercise and activity affects your BG. Or just zone in during the 14 day trial on any peculiarities that your series of fp results have brought to your attention. From this strategy of mastering fps and having some usable data you would, in my opinion, get far more out of the results from a CGM.

You could even revert to fps for a further month after your CGM trial and then purchase a one-off 2nd sensor, using that to learn even more about BG oddities. Or even to help you while away from home and needing to gauge hotel or cafe foods. The permutations are endless with "once in a while" sensors. If you meticulously log all your sensor results, with records of meal content, a subsequent look back at those records from the web-based LibreView site could also be helpful and revealing of repeating trends.

I offer these thoughts, after 12 months from first diagnosis in Feb '20 with just fps and then receiving Libre 2 in Feb '21. It all made my new CGM results so much more revealing, because I had a fair sense of what I expected to see and could quickly adjust my lifestyle to counter my unsatisfactory CGM readings. The daily graphs quickly allowed me to see BG changes I'd influenced AND allowed me to repeat those experiments and verify what was happening. That sort of experimenting from just fps is very drawn out!


I still think there is little point in you trying out the Libre CGM until you are comfortable and competent with finger pricks and your test meter.
 
Another question. This is a quote from the BHF:
"For most people without diabetes, normal blood sugar levels are:
- between 4 and to 6 mmol/L before meals
- less than 8 mmol/L two hours after eating."


But for me the two are the same. More than two hours without food and I am starting to feel wobbly and hangry. My 2 hour test after a large bowl of porridge and fruit was 7.1.
 
Another question. This is a quote from the BHF:
"For most people without diabetes, normal blood sugar levels are:
- between 4 and to 6 mmol/L before meals
- less than 8 mmol/L two hours after eating."


But for me the two are the same. More than two hours without food and I am starting to feel wobbly and hangry. My 2 hour test after a large bowl of porridge and fruit was 7.1.
That would probably be a pretty high carb meal with little protein or healthy fats and as such can induce the pancreas to over produce insulin which then makes blood glucose fall rapidly giving 'wobbly' feeling.
Have you tried having a lower carb but higher protein breakfast like a big omelette or bacon and eggs or add full fat Greek yoghurt to your porridge.
 
It really doesn't matter what I eat or how much, I always feel hungry two hours later (or less). I eat a lot of scrambled eggs and salmon. Same result. The one thing I avoid is sugar as there is an immediate energy spike and crash.

Bacon feels a bit out of the frying pan into the fire.
 
Hi Simon

First and foremost be prepared to do some reading/research as there are no instant answers and you have to establish what works for you personally, especially on the dietary front.
I would suggest getting a blood glucose meter (finger prick testing) first. I do use the Freestyle Libre 2 Plus and it is great at seeing the overall glucose levels and trends but I find that at certain times you still have to check the figures against a finger prick blood test. Of the meters on the Diabetes UK Shop I would suggest something like the Betachek C50 (I have an AccuChek Mobile which is similar but discontinued) and then set up a test regime. I used to do on waking, pre-lunch, 2 hour post meal and after any exercise. Once you have a baseline of a few weeks you could then try the Freestyle Libre 2+ or Dexcom ONE+ and see how well everything matches.

Regarding the food choice this is again something you have to establish for yourself after checking all the sources. Some major "no-no's" are potatoes, rice, pasta and bread but I can say, for myself, that boiled potatoes don't spike my blood glucose nearly as much as rice, pasta and bread (even the high fibre "brown" versions which should take longer to be broken down). Otherwise, low carb content protein and fats such as eggs, fish, meat, cheese, non-starchy veg like cauliflower, cabbage, kale, brussels, peas (a very broad rule is that if you eat the part of the veg that was underground it is not good for you), avocado, nuts and a few fruits like blueberries. There are hundreds of diabetic recipe books (and the Diabetes UK website has lots of recipes). Also check out keto diet recipes.
 
It really doesn't matter what I eat or how much, I always feel hungry two hours later (or less).

Ian Marber, himself a nutritionist, finds he needs 5 meals and snacks a day to keep up his energy levels. All is explained in his book 'Man Food', and in some of his online stuff available via Google. Looks like you may need to spread what you eat over up to 8 meals and snacks at two hour intervals!
 
Last edited:
This is a very interesting question. But the issue is how do I get the daily 2,500ish calories into my system to keep a stable weight without quite a lot of carbs or protein?
I average between 130-140g carbs, close to 2100 kCals and just short of 90g protein per day and my weight has remained pretty stable since I lost 15kg after diagnosis.
 
I average between 130-140g carbs, close to 2100 kCals and just short of 90g protein per day and my weight has remained pretty stable since I lost 15kg after diagnosis.
@Martin.A
OTT question.
Do you have a 'target' for healthy fats as well?
I'm wondering if the olive oil and other things I don't measure and count are adding up.
 
Last edited:
Hi Simon @NewDawn,

Sorry I couldn't reply yesterday, lots going on at home just now as our daughter & family are about to move out (on Sunday, fingers crossed) taking most of the contents of this house with them to their new home and inevitably there are numerous little things to be untangled and sorted after 13 months of the 5 of us co-habiting (pragmatic solution).
Thank you @Proud to be erratic. Does it take a long time to become competent with FPs? I have done two now and both seem to have given sensible readings.
No, it doesn't necessarily take long to get usable results, with minimal wasted strips. Some people struggle to get a drop of blood, some struggle to get the strip to to draw that drop of blood away and give a reading. For both those sets of people it can make the fp testing business frustrating and stressful - and stress elevates one's BG. So there is benefit in having that routine mastered as an easy background task.

I still feel it's best to have some background awareness of what your fps (taken as part of a structured testing regime) look like, to get the most out of the free sensor. If, of course, that nominal £50 expense is no big deal to commit to fortnightly anyway, then my concerns about getting best value from that first sensor diminish in terms of what is important to you.

However, I would also most gently point out that managing Diabetes is a marathon which can be contradictory, confusing and challenging. And YOU are just on the cusp of pre-diabetic according to a single HbA1c result. So that marathon may (or may not) be somewhere ahead of you. Others have already pointed out that even that single reading could be misleading. You have just turned 60, are a great weight, already look after yourself with healthy eating and staying fit, have very moderate alcohol consumption; and seen from this distance (and I am not remotely medically qualified) it is a surprise to me that you are even at risk of becoming a T2 diabetic. Setting aside @rebrascora's sensible observation that some leeway should rightly be made for age (as she explains) I do think after reading again this full thread that @Docb has made a great suggestion. Carry on with rhe modest adjustments you have already recently started but otherwise do nothing more and get a fresh HbA1c in 3 or 6 months time. As @everydayupsanddowns frequently observes to others Diabetes is a slow moving foe. You would be on the moral high ground to ask your GP to retest you in a while; after all if that result had been 48 or more (ie just actually diabetic) the NICE protocol would definitely call for a 2nd test to confirm that initial diagnosis. So if your GP should say no retest for another 12 months (a possible response) you could make a case for sooner.

You are "at risk" but by no means actually diabetic according to one isolated result. You "could" be Thin Outside and Fat Inside (TOFI) with visceral fat causing your pancreas to work harder than necessary - but you could just have an "outlier" result. I absolutely commend you for taking this result seriously and not just ignoring it; but I also most courteously suggest your natural and commendable instinct to make changes and get into monitoring outcomes from those changes is perhaps too enthusiastic right now. I see nothing wrong with being aware and thus being sensible about your lifestyle in the future, without perhaps slightly over reacting.

If I may, an observation about blood glucose numbers from either fps or CGM. The tech for either displays readings to within 1 decimal point in mmol/L. But that accuracy is totally unrealistic. The hardware for either is kept to a low cost to make it fairly widely available in a potentially quite small market. The software (or physics and chemistry for fps) is also quite subjective by the manufacturers. You could have 2 different test meters, each with their unique strips, and get quite different results from the same finger in the same minute (even from the same punctured point). At best both fps and CGM readings should be rounded up or down to the nearest whole number AND much more importantly just seen as an indication of trend for BG change. For fps you are hoping to confirm that your body successfully managed a meal by keeping the initial (inevitable) increase from first mouthful to within modest limits at the 2 hr point. From the 2 readings at one meal you steadily acquire a sense of what foods suit you overall. For CGM the helpful graph displayed on a mobile phone app or the manufacturer's reader is best seen as just that - a graph, without scrutinising precise numbers and trying to extract detailed conclusions that don't exist. Yes, CGM can be really helpful for T2 management; but I struggle to see a justification for pre-diabetic use (but perhaps that just me being overly frugal.

Anyway, bottom line: if you are happy with getting successful fp results, it's wholly your call whether you start the trial CGM tomorrow, or later once you have specific food or exercise questions you'd like to find an answer to, that fps don't reveal. CGM will always need a certain amount of fp results initially to get some reference points. I think @Phil P's point at post#47 ["Once you have a baseline of a few weeks you could then try the Freestyle Libre 2+ or Dexcom ONE+ and see how well everything matches"] makes total sense. But I gently suggest you don't need to do anything more for now; just get a 2nd HbA1c in a few months time. Then take stock.
 
Last edited:
Thank you @Proud to be erratic and indeed everyone else who has replied. I can't believe how much time you and others are prepared to give up in the interests of some neverwozzer. I am truly grateful to everyone on here - not least because there are already signs that the various changes I have made are working. The only problem I have had with the FP tests is getting enough blood with the lance machine so I have ditched that and just chuck the lance in manually channelling my inner Millwall.

I don't have a "pre-adjustments" BG reading unfortunately however, taking everyone's advice, my 2hr BG after my main carbohydrate meal has plummeted from 7.1 to 5 which I understand is the fasting level. I do feel a bit wobbly but that is easy to address.

I plan to follow @Docb's advice and keep on with my revised regimen without further amendment as I am quietly confident that it is working. Will keep FP testing to see if there are any adverse changes.

You are right that I am overly enthusiastic. My tendency is always to throw myself into a project and do more than is probably necessary. But the changes I have made are all better for my general health anyway and they don't cramp my style. I used to eat a lot of artificially-sweetened protein bars and I am suspicious that those were a prime reason for the HbAc1 test result which I believe to be genuine. I have made up a nut-free trail mix using mixed seeds with a bit of very dark chocolate blended in which is far more palatable than expected. (The other upside is that it will save me a fortune.) The one issue is that I have lost 1.5kg which will need monitoring but it seems to be largely coming from my stomach, whether visceral or subcutaneous, which is no bad thing. Pretty sure I am TOFI.

With great respect for what people have said, if the CGM device turns up by the weekend I will be using it. I have a major few days coming up around a birthday celebration. As I will be away from home, it won't be possible to follow my new regimen strictly and will provide a perfect opportunity to see what different foods (and indeed alcohol) have on my BG. If it doesn't arrive in time, I will follow the advice and delay.

I have booked a Boots HbAc1 test in a month. It's only £20 and will give me confidence (or otherwise) that what I am doing is working. The GP is prepared to do one in six months.
 
Last edited:
@Proud to be erratic has understandably raised the issue of whether we can trust a pinprick Boots test which takes a few minutes compared to the proper-blood-sample-3-days-for-results NHS version.

I was as sceptical about the Boots' test and did a bit of research. From what my untutored eye can make out the system does seem to be reasonably accurate, although it has not been tested on pre-diabetic levels of HbA1c. The test results are halfway down this page.

https://www.lumiradx.com/en-uk/products/hba1c

What also gave me a bit of confidence was that most of the concerns I could find from the medical community were down to two-tier healthcare and tests taking place outside the NHS and the results getting lost. @Proud to be erratic suggested a Boots test on the same day as the NHS one, which is something I may well do for grins.

Thoughts?
 
@Proud to be erratic has understandably raised the issue of whether we can trust a pinprick Boots test which takes a few minutes compared to the proper-blood-sample-3-days-for-results NHS version.

I was as sceptical about the Boots' test and did a bit of research. From what my untutored eye can make out the system does seem to be reasonably accurate, although it has not been tested on pre-diabetic levels of HbA1c. The test results are halfway down this page.

https://www.lumiradx.com/en-uk/products/hba1c

What also gave me a bit of confidence was that most of the concerns I could find from the medical community were down to two-tier healthcare and tests taking place outside the NHS and the results getting lost. @Proud to be erratic suggested a Boots test on the same day as the NHS one, which is something I may well do for grins.

Thoughts?
Looking through the product information it looks as if it could be useful as long as those doing the test are following the procedure and including the standards as it does involve pipetting very small volumes. If people are prepared to fork out the money, it will likely be a pretty accurate result. But using a home monitor to check out tolerance to meals will be a valuable tool day to day so you are then not wasting your money in having the HbA1C.
It is a bit like people thinking that just having a Smart Meter will automatically save money without doing anything to change your usage.
 
The only problem I have had with the FP tests is getting enough blood with the lance machine so I have ditched that and just chuck the lance in manually channelling my inner Millwall.
I hope your Inner Milwall is working and not causing you too much pain.
Many find it takes a bit of practice to master FPing technique without bruising your fingers.
The main tips are
- Preparation. As well as making sure your finger is clean, it needs to be warm. Heat will bring the blood to the surface. I usual make myself a hot drink before testing and "cuddle my cuppa" to warm my hands. If that is not possible, a vigorous shake can help.
- Depth. Lancing devices will have a dial on them to allow you to adjust the depth. Ideally you need to prick deep enough to extract blood but not too deep to cause bruising. I find this changes throughout the year, especially as my hands are colder in winter despite the cuppa.
- Placement. Rather than pricking the centre of your finger pad, it is better to prick the side. This is less painful.

Good luck with your diabetes journey - it is often said it is a marathon not a sprint.
 
I hope your Inner Milwall is working and not causing you too much pain.
Many find it takes a bit of practice to master FPing technique without bruising your fingers.
The main tips are
- Preparation. As well as making sure your finger is clean, it needs to be warm. Heat will bring the blood to the surface. I usual make myself a hot drink before testing and "cuddle my cuppa" to warm my hands. If that is not possible, a vigorous shake can help.
- Depth. Lancing devices will have a dial on them to allow you to adjust the depth. Ideally you need to prick deep enough to extract blood but not too deep to cause bruising. I find this changes throughout the year, especially as my hands are colder in winter despite the cuppa.
- Placement. Rather than pricking the centre of your finger pad, it is better to prick the side. This is less painful.

Good luck with your diabetes journey - it is often said it is a marathon not a sprint.
I do the same, far less phaff than the device. I put my thumb on the pad of the finger and prick just to the side of that, you can then apply gentle pressure with the thumb and get your drop of blood.
 
I do the same, far less phaff than the device. I put my thumb on the pad of the finger and prick just to the side of that, you can then apply gentle pressure with the thumb and get your drop of blood.
I never found changing the lancet once a year much of a faff but yet again we show how we are all different.🙂
 
Hi Simon @NewDawn,

Sorry I couldn't reply yesterday, lots going on at home just now as our daughter & family are about to move out (on Sunday, fingers crossed) taking most of the contents of this house with them to their new home and inevitably there are numerous little things to be untangled and sorted after 13 months of the 5 of us co-habiting (pragmatic solution).

No, it doesn't necessarily take long to get usable results, with minimal wasted strips. Some people struggle to get a drop of blood, some struggle to get the strip to to draw that drop of blood away and give a reading. For both those sets of people it can make the fp testing business frustrating and stressful - and stress elevates one's BG. So there is benefit in having that routine mastered as an easy background task.

I still feel it's best to have some background awareness of what your fps (taken as part of a structured testing regime) look like, to get the most out of the free sensor. If, of course, that nominal £50 expense is no big deal to commit to fortnightly anyway, then my concerns about getting best value from that first sensor diminish in terms of what is important to you.

However, I would also most gently point out that managing Diabetes is a marathon which can be contradictory, confusing and challenging. And YOU are just on the cusp of pre-diabetic according to a single HbA1c result. So that marathon may (or may not) be somewhere ahead of you. Others have already pointed out that even that single reading could be misleading. You have just turned 60, are a great weight, already look after yourself with healthy eating and staying fit, have very moderate alcohol consumption; and seen from this distance (and I am not remotely medically qualified) it is a surprise to me that you are even at risk of becoming a T2 diabetic. Setting aside @rebrascora's sensible observation that some leeway should rightly be made for age (as she explains) I do think after reading again this full thread that @Docb has made a great suggestion. Carry on with rhe modest adjustments you have already recently started but otherwise do nothing more and get a fresh HbA1c in 3 or 6 months time. As @everydayupsanddowns frequently observes to others Diabetes is a slow moving foe. You would be on the moral high ground to ask your GP to retest you in a while; after all if that result had been 48 or more (ie just actually diabetic) the NICE protocol would definitely call for a 2nd test to confirm that initial diagnosis. So if your GP should say no retest for another 12 months (a possible response) you could make a case for sooner.

You are "at risk" but by no means actually diabetic according to one isolated result. You "could" be Thin Outside and Fat Inside (TOFI) with visceral fat causing your pancreas to work harder than necessary - but you could just have an "outlier" result. I absolutely commend you for taking this result seriously and not just ignoring it; but I also most courteously suggest your natural and commendable instinct to make changes and get into monitoring outcomes from those changes is perhaps too enthusiastic right now. I see nothing wrong with being aware and thus being sensible about your lifestyle in the future, without perhaps slightly over reacting.

If I may, an observation about blood glucose numbers from either fps or CGM. The tech for either displays readings to within 1 decimal point in mmol/L. But that accuracy is totally unrealistic. The hardware for either is kept to a low cost to make it fairly widely available in a potentially quite small market. The software (or physics and chemistry for fps) is also quite subjective by the manufacturers. You could have 2 different test meters, each with their unique strips, and get quite different results from the same finger in the same minute (even from the same punctured point). At best both fps and CGM readings should be rounded up or down to the nearest whole number AND much more importantly just seen as an indication of trend for BG change. For fps you are hoping to confirm that your body successfully managed a meal by keeping the initial (inevitable) increase from first mouthful to within modest limits at the 2 hr point. From the 2 readings at one meal you steadily acquire a sense of what foods suit you overall. For CGM the helpful graph displayed on a mobile phone app or the manufacturer's reader is best seen as just that - a graph, without scrutinising precise numbers and trying to extract detailed conclusions that don't exist. Yes, CGM can be really helpful for T2 management; but I struggle to see a justification for pre-diabetic use (but perhaps that just me being overly frugal.
I encourage you to go and read this article https://www.cogniteq.com/blog/telemedicine-video-conferencing-complete-overview which is about Telemedicine Video Conferencing, which will be useful for those interested in medicine and technology.

Anyway, bottom line: if you are happy with getting successful fp results, it's wholly your call whether you start the trial CGM tomorrow, or later once you have specific food or exercise questions you'd like to find an answer to, that fps don't reveal. CGM will always need a certain amount of fp results initially to get some reference points. I think @Phil P's point at post#47 ["Once you have a baseline of a few weeks you could then try the Freestyle Libre 2+ or Dexcom ONE+ and see how well everything matches"] makes total sense. But I gently suggest you don't need to do anything more for now; just get a 2nd HbA1c in a few months time. Then take stock.
I completely agree with your point about the variability between devices and readings. It's true that both fps and CGM should be viewed more as trend indicators rather than focusing too much on exact numbers. The idea of getting a baseline with fps before considering CGM, and using it when you have specific questions or trends to explore, makes perfect sense. Ultimately, it’s about finding what works best for managing BG effectively without overcomplicating things.
 
Wondering what is going on. The story so far in a nutshell:
  1. On Thursday Sept 26, I was told that my Hb1ac was borderline pre-diabetic.
  2. On Friday 27, I replaced daily cereal with fruit/yogurt, yogurt for daily golden syrup with porridge; and loads of artificially-sweetened protein bars with trail mix.
  3. On Mon 30, did first 2 hour post porridge FP. BG was 7.1. Tests in the next 3 days, this number was 6.
  4. On Fri Oct 54, I applied a GCM. Its readings always come out slightly lower and lagging FPs. (I understand the lag is to be expected as FP blood is more "recent".)
This weekend has been a big one with a major celebration going on and no chance to prepare my own food.

The pic below shows Saturday:
1728301953803.png
The first spike is the same porridge portion, with 2hour GB coming down to less than 4 (probably helped by a walk). The second is yogurt and fruit. After that, there is a major (largely carb free) meal with quite a bit of booze, followed by, er, a bit more booze and some garlic dough balls to soak it up. I was forever expecting the line to leave the range immediately after a meal and it never got close.

Then we get to Sunday.

1728302139079.png
I was on the move all day and, given the previous day's results, felt confident to rely on Pret a Manger for calories. First spike is the now-familiar porridge, the second is a salmon roll. The remaining three are each half of a wrap.

To my untutored eye, these results seem to suggest that, if there was a problem, the dietary changes I have made mean that there no longer is.

Is this correct, or am I fooling myself?

(Even if this is the case, I am going to heed the yellow card I have been given and ease up on the carbs.)

Sorry if this is overlong. I tried really hard to keep it pithy.
 
Back
Top