Type 3c - can it go into remission?

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It’s about time that overview was updated.
Fully agree.
For one, it says that Metformin or insulin can be used in 3c. The current advice is obvious - if the pancreas is damaged to the extent that Creon is needed, then the Beta cells that produce insulin will be equally damaged or lost. If you don’t produce insulin because of autoimmune damage to those cells, then you are Type 1 and you need insulin. If the damage is done by acute or chronic pancreatitis, then you need insulin.

Metformin won’t work if there is no insulin being provided by a wrecked pancreas.
Yet interestingbrhat despite what seems obvious we prriodically get T1s declaring that their medscinclude metformin. Does metformin provide something else?
And to say that 3c is not a medically recognised classification, then don’t use it. Call it Type 1, because the treatment is identical.
Alas, I can't agree with that. Perhaps my situation is unusually extreme. I was discharged after my total panc'y officially declared T1. Despite that both my GP and DSN clearly did not understand that I needed to test and more than 4 times daily. Not just because I was frequently going hypo and very deep long lasting hypos, but also need to drive for my chemo treatment.

T3c is a condition in its own right and I think needs recognition that it's neither T1 nor T2. The treatment can be as if T1 but invariably that MDI and diet needs discrete care because of other comorbidities. When viewed as if T1 a "one size fits all" presumption is made and intelligent HCPs make silly decisions. I've encountered this too often.
And Type 3c is now more common than Type 1 diabetes.
I would be delighted to know where you have this data from. I'm not challenging you, just not seen it anywhere. But this does support T3c having its own officially recognised classification.
The main reason that overview of Type3c needs updating is that it doesn’t mention that one of the common causes of acute pancreatitis is alcohol. If you look on the Pancreatitis forum you would think that alcohol was the commonest cause of acute pancreatitis.

(Unlike this forum, the Pancreatitis forum can’t be viewed until you register)

On that forum you will learn that alcohol and smoking are both toxic to the pancreas. I have chronic pancreatitis, probably autoimmune, but I still don’t drink alcohol. Unlike the liver, which is unique among our organs in that it can restore itself to normal after damage from alcohol. The pancreas cannot do that. The damage caused by acute pancreatitis ( which I have never had) is permanent- that’s why after AP you need to take Creon.
Yes I registered on the pancreatitis and the pancreatic cancer forums in my early hunt for better explanations.
 
Fully agree.

Yet interestingbrhat despite what seems obvious we prriodically get T1s declaring that their medscinclude metformin. Does metformin provide something else?

I believe they use Metformin to improve insulin sensitivity in T1s.
 
Hi Nanette - this is a lengthy ramble on my part, so be forewarned!!

Yep, 4 weeks in ICU sounds really serious. You had good reason to be concerned.

3+ yrs ago I was discharged as T1. T3c didn't seem to be part of the vocabulary at all then, even from the Churchill Hospital who are pioneering Diabetes research.

I started on Levermir and NovoRapid and changed my basal from Levermir to Tresiba, which has worked well for me ever since. Everyone's doses are different and can be markedly so. My Tresiba is 9 units per day, for Levermir it was c.25+ for the 2 daily doses. I think this big reduction is a mix of much more even performance by my basal and better ability on my part to manage my days. Don't take my doses as typical or some sort of average; during my early days I just constantly wanted some sort of feel for what other people took.

I fully carb count; I used to be meticulous about this but since my DAFNE course (including some changes in what doesn't really need counting) - plus in conjunction with the huge benefit of CGM showing me what is going on every 5 minutes - I've been much more relaxed about not being too precise. My NovoRapid currently is typically 7 for breakfast, 5 for optional lunch and 7-9 for dinner. Those NovoRapid doses are my start point because when I'm very busy (or this week while it's been so hot) I've reduced my bolus by 20-50% because I know my natural insulin resistance will be markedly reduced. Such reductions aren't following a set of dosing rules they are just my adjustments learnt from the last 2+ yrs about what I need to do to stay somewhere in range. I now accept I might be a bit adrift sometimes and if dropping low after a meal I'll just eat a few more carbs; if going too high I'll either take some moderate exercise or activity or an insulin correction dose. That depends on what I'm doing, how I feel, the weather possibly or just whether I'm concerned about' the colour of my socks'. I have no hard rules, just judgement and guesswork along with a confidence that I can adjust again if I need to.

In the last 3 yrs each posting on this forum from someone with T3c has emphasised how diverse this small and select Type of diabetes is. And that is without those with a slightly different T3 (x), such as from steroid or alcohol damage to their pancreas.

You, Annette, at least have the clarity on your medical records of T3c, as if T1. Some didn't start from there, withba default diagnosis of T2, so it's been even more uphill for them to get Health Care Practicioners (HCPs) on side.

I think, realistically yet with absolutely no medical qualification, it is unlikely your pancreas can actually improve with more time and therefore insulin dependence is going to be with you until an entirely new "cure" emerges. If that cure comes, I don't expect to be at the top of that list to receive that new cure and if it involves any more surgery I probably wouldn't volunteer!

On Wednesday I had my periodic consult at the Oxford Centre for Diabetes, Endocrinology and Metabolism (OCDEM) in Churchill Hospital. I feel pretty privileged since OCDEM is at the forefront for both D technology and islet transplants, so I see Consultants who instil a huge confidence within me about their knowledge and from their empathy. The Dr I saw on Wednesday gave me a lengthy review, an upbeat conclusion and most gently and tactfully offered ideas for modest changes.

One of those comments was in connection with the major delays I frequently get from my NovoRapid bolus. Like you Nanette I can wait up to 90 minutes before starting my breakfast, particularly. I find if my waking BG is greater than 8, at most 9, I need a correction well before my breakfast and the time of that pre-bolus to bring my BG down to 7 before eating is essential. Or, my BG remains stubbornly high all morning. Even with a fully active morning. I get a similar difficulty in the evenings; slightly quicker perhaps because I'm very rarely sedentary for much of any day and that constant activity is improving my natural insulin sensitivity. A recommendation was to change from NovoRapid to Fiasp; which I'm considering and currently undecided about. Change is going to be a challenge - despite its slowness I've got a routine for NovoRapid. But that slowness is very noticeable now we have moved and will be sharing with others for the next 6 months.

Another comment made was that my D was sufficiently unusual that the "business case" for my getting increasing tech should be positive. There was an immediate caveat of subject to funding; not a surprise. Significantly the Dr said my age should not be a barrier, medical need was the first criterion (although I anticipate and would want scarce funds go to children first).

Something also remarked upon, which I'd previously heard and read around: was about my very real risk of diabetes burnout for those on MDI. Every single day we make '305 decisions' purely in the process of D management, a huge commitment in relation to people who don't have D. I had a high failure rate with Libre 2 and not much better with Dex One. I'm self-funding Dexcom G7 which is much, much better for reliability and accuracy AND I have noticed this does make each day less stressful. I finger prick infrequently, because I trust the alerts and displayed readings. Since advice from that Consult I've raised my in range display for high to be at 12, not 10 and low above 6, prev 5, targeting to be neutral at 7.0. This is generating a lot less alerts with a consequent lot less reaction by me; fewer moments of declaring out loud "Oh leave me alone!" before looking and making 'yet one more decisiorently!)

So Nanette you might want to consider logging as much supporting detail as you can about odd D days, weeks etc and use that data to support a request for a pump. There is a Technical Appraisal (TA) going on right now, to make closed loop much more widely available for T1s. Due to report mid October and if positive NICE have agreed to provide Guidance by December; implementation won't be instant but it all should be a positive advance. Closed loop means much more automation in addition to assistance from a pump. I wasn't in a good place to consider pumping 36 months after my surgery; you might well be.

All for now, sorry its such a ramble!

Apologies all I'm struggling with using this website on my new phone - and think I may be posting reponses twice? Page keeps crashing and I lose it all - not sure I'm doing it right, just know I'm appreciating all your comments


Note from moderator....Don't worry, I've just tidied up your last post. Keep posting!
 
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Thank you moderator, for sorting out my posts - I can't seem to reply to specific comments? When I hit the ' reply button, a page comes up and then disears


Thank you moderator but it's not working well for me. When I try to reply to specific comments the oage disappears ,so I have to hit the post reply button nd then it freezes or disappears in middle of my response. I might do better on laptop
 
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Please don't apologise, what you say is so very interesting and helpful. I can't respond as I'd wish as I'm struggling technology om this new phone 'losing' some of my responses before complete. I think it's when others are writing at same time
 
Hi Wendal, I'm sorry you've had to go through a similar nightmare to me - for it was a nightmare and there were days I thought I might not get better. I was in ICU on a ventilator because all my other organs were failing, but like you I was in and out of hospital for the following year. I'm glad you seem to have recovered well and have a great attitude towards your diabetes, not letting it dominate or stop you from doing what you want. I share that and mostly it's well controlled, but recently is gone a bit crazy. I know what you mean about going away and being g out of routine. My NovoRapid takes about and hour and a half to work, so it's not easy to time it fir meals when away. Hope you havecazlovely holiday in Ang
Hi Nanette,
Thanks for kind words and yes the day of my attack happened was traumatic after waiting 6 hours for the ambulance and even then they wanted me to stay at home with paracetamol.
Once I was on the ward it got better and it was a mixture of I felt OK after a few days but Drs kept on saying as I certain I was feeling alright when they looked at my CT scans.
I got discharged after 12 days but had 2 short spells back in due to a couple of high blood levels including mild jaundice.
I stayed on an ultra low fat diet based on wanting to ” protect” my pancreas in fear if another attack but I had no energy and lost about 22% of my body weight and I was not overweight.
It was then I spoke to a dietician who told me to get fat back in my diet and advised the Creon.That proved great,I put on weight and felt very much back to normal and TBH just kept on taking the Creon and did not find it affected anything as I could eat what I wanted and even if I forgot my Creon I did not have any digestive issues.
Then after about 10 months I got the 3c diagnosis and within 2 days was on the insulin etc.
My healthcare Team are very good and my employer is great and have basically said to me just WFH until I am comfortable with managing my condition.
So yesterday was the first time I have been on a decent drive so 2 hours as I drive a lot in my job and it is important to me to manage this different routine.
I felt very comfortable with the drive,stopping and checking and keeping my level reasonably high so 7-8.Last night I did have a Lasagne/cake so my level did spike to 13 but then dropped to 6 this morning.I kept to my usual 2 units of NR rather than increase it which I should have done as I wanted to see the effect and also I did not want to disrupt evening too much for my wife.
I am lucky that my general health is very good with no cardiac/ renal/ hepatic issues etc and I don’t look upon my Pancreas exocrine insufficiency as a co morbidity as it does not affect me with the Creon.
I am happy that I can manage my diabetes reasonably well and yes the spontaneity of certain things is a pain but I can readily cope with that.
As in the case of not drinking any alcohol after my AP( caused by a gallstone) I just concentrate on what I can do rather than what I can’t.
Also being diagnosed in my mid 60s after very good health all my life I feel that I have been lucky compared to many who have suffered Ill health or have had to manage T1 from a very early age.
I know that I will make adjustments to my diet/ exercise etc to improve other aspects of my health to help negate the increased risk of for eg congestive heart failure due to the DM.
Anyway this forum is a fantastic area where people can help support each by giving info as well as just share their story so we are not kept thinking we are having to deal with these challenges on our own.
Plus we have to live as life is precious and my stay in hospital only made me redouble my efforts to manage my condition as best I can and as for as long as I can.
Sincere best wishes to all
 
Apologies all I'm struggling with using this website on my new phone - and think I may be posting reponses twice? Page keeps crashing and I lose it all - not sure I'm doing it right, just know I'm appreciating all your comments

Hello @Nanette

Sorry your new phone is giving you a hard time with the forum.

There was a glitch in early versions of Android13 which led to an error with the keyboard inserting loads of blank lines in posts and text boxes.

There was an early fix mentioned here:


But you may find that Android have fixed the issue if you upgrade Android to the newest version?
 
Hello @Nanette

Sorry your new phone is giving you a hard time with the forum.

There was a glitch in early versions of Android13 which led to an error with the keyboard inserting loads of blank lines in posts and text boxes.

There was an early fix mentioned here:


But you may find that Android have fixed the issue if you upgrade Android to the newest version?
I've just tried accessing website directly rather than through email link and that seems to have worked better
 
I would agree with you. Whilst I was told it would be treated as if T1, it has become evident there are some significant differences, such as not being able to digest food properly without Pancreatic enzymes and generally needing less insulin ? Also having to be mindful of the condition that caused damage to pancreas in the first place and any ongoing treatment for that. My diabetes Nurse practitioners are excellent, but don't seem to know too much about 3c and therefore advice is based in T1
 
Hi Nanette,
Thanks for kind words and yes the day of my attack happened was traumatic after waiting 6 hours for the ambulance and even then they wanted me to stay at home with paracetamol.
Once I was on the ward it got better and it was a mixture of I felt OK after a few days but Drs kept on saying as I certain I was feeling alright when they looked at my CT scans.
I got discharged after 12 days but had 2 short spells back in due to a couple of high blood levels including mild jaundice.
I stayed on an ultra low fat diet based on wanting to ” protect” my pancreas in fear if another attack but I had no energy and lost about 22% of my body weight and I was not overweight.
It was then I spoke to a dietician who told me to get fat back in my diet and advised the Creon.That proved great,I put on weight and felt very much back to normal and TBH just kept on taking the Creon and did not find it affected anything as I could eat what I wanted and even if I forgot my Creon I did not have any digestive issues.
Then after about 10 months I got the 3c diagnosis and within 2 days was on the insulin etc.
My healthcare Team are very good and my employer is great and have basically said to me just WFH until I am comfortable with managing my condition.
So yesterday was the first time I have been on a decent drive so 2 hours as I drive a lot in my job and it is important to me to manage this different routine.
I felt very comfortable with the drive,stopping and checking and keeping my level reasonably high so 7-8.Last night I did have a Lasagne/cake so my level did spike to 13 but then dropped to 6 this morning.I kept to my usual 2 units of NR rather than increase it which I should have done as I wanted to see the effect and also I did not want to disrupt evening too much for my wife.
I am lucky that my general health is very good with no cardiac/ renal/ hepatic issues etc and I don’t look upon my Pancreas exocrine insufficiency as a co morbidity as it does not affect me with the Creon.
I am happy that I can manage my diabetes reasonably well and yes the spontaneity of certain things is a pain but I can readily cope with that.
As in the case of not drinking any alcohol after my AP( caused by a gallstone) I just concentrate on what I can do rather than what I can’t.
Also being diagnosed in my mid 60s after very good health all my life I feel that I have been lucky compared to many who have suffered Ill health or have had to manage T1 from a very early age.
I know that I will make adjustments to my diet/ exercise etc to improve other aspects of my health to help negate the increased risk of for eg congestive heart failure due to the DM.
Anyway this forum is a fantastic area where people can help support each by giving info as well as just share their story so we are not kept thinking we are having to deal with these challenges on our own.
Plus we have to live as life is precious and my stay in hospital only made me redouble my efforts to manage my condition as best I can and as for as long as I can.
Sincere best wishes to all
6 hours for an ambulance!! That's dreadful ! I waited one a half hours and genuinely thought I'd die on my hands and knees on my bedroom floor rocking and groaning like an animal. I knew I was in serious trouble. Never known pain like it. Yes we're the lucky ones who've survived and diabetes is a,small price to pay for still being here, even though it can be all consuming in our lives and get us a bit fed up from time to time. I think of the children coping with D and also those with chronic pancreatitis. I can hardly bear to think of small children with that pain. There's an excellent charity who have a similar online forum to this for those with pancreatitis and other gut oroblems . They also research into pancreatitis. Guts UK https://gutscharity.org.uk/
 
But I use relatively little insulin, with no panc'y at all. I think it's a case of we need what we need.

May I just observe that the Creon is essential for me, with no panc'y. When forgotten the poor absorption results in an excess of insulin on board - not surprisingly. But I personally don't think that when Creon has been taken, in effect always, the timing for fat slowing overall digestion and release of carbs from a complex meal (classic eg pizza or lasagne) is a consequence of that meals overall GI - and not the Creon.
Thank you Roland, everything you've said is of great relevance and interest. I'm not sure about a pump, it seems a bit complicated and cumbersome to have to wear it. Also im pretty well controlled overall, so may not be necessary . I did try Fiasp last year but it seemed to take even longer ' I felt I was I injecting water- but on another thread on here, I read that you need to persevere with it . Thanks again for all your input, I've learned loads and it helps to stop me getting too worried when things go a bit silly . I wish everyone continuing best health possible x
 
One last wee comment. You'd think we'd need more insulin with a damaged pancreas not less - especially those like proud to be erratic with no pancreas at all. Anyone know why that is ?
 
One last wee comment. You'd think we'd need more insulin with a damaged pancreas not less - especially those like proud to be erratic with no pancreas at all. Anyone know why that is ?
I think it's just that we need what we need. Some tall people have small feet and vice versa. Some lurk on this forum others write for ever!
 
Hi - are there any type 3c's on here?
Diagnosed type 3c 18 months ago and on Levemir basil / Novorapid bolus insulin. After initial erratic highs and lows , I've been well controlled for past year. However, I seem to be needing less and less insulin and have been reducing basil dose gradually over last few months & this week have stopped it completely as BG was trending very low, which required frequent snacking to prevent hypos. Now I'm needing less bolus than usual and I'm wondering if it's possible that my damaged pancreas has started to recover? I've been googling to see if type 3c can go into remission, but can't seem to find information on that. Just wondering if anyone on here has had similar.?
Hi @Nanette and welcome.
I'm another Type 3c caused by necrotising pancreatitis (6 months in hospital with first 2 in ICU ) so I understand where you are coming from and hope that things are getting a little easier for you now.

I've been on insulin from the start and it doesn't look as though I'll ever manage without it (I have very little pancreas left).

While I was in hospital the diabetes consultant did say that I might be able to manage with tablets in time (I was treated in a hospital that is a specialist pancreatic centre). Although once the extent of the pancreatic damage was obvious this wasn't mentioned again!
While this wasn't the case for me it does suggest that once the inflammation has reduced some people might be able to manage with less insulin (at least for a while), depending on the amount of damage. I do need less Creon than I did at the start but it doesn't look as if I'll ever manage without insulin.
 
6 hours for an ambulance!! That's dreadful ! I waited one a half hours and genuinely thought I'd die on my hands and knees on my bedroom floor rocking and groaning like an animal. I knew I was in serious trouble. Never known pain like it. Yes we're the lucky ones who've survived and diabetes is a,small price to pay for still being here, even though it can be all consuming in our lives and get us a bit fed up from time to time. I think of the children coping with D and also those with chronic pancreatitis. I can hardly bear to think of small children with that pain. There's an excellent charity who have a similar online forum to this for those with pancreatitis and other gut oroblems . They also research into pancreatitis. Guts UK https://gutscharity.org.uk/
Can I ask how you accessed the Guts UK forum @Nanette. I can't spot a link on their website.
 
I've just tried accessing website directly rather than through email link and that seems to have worked better

Good to hear 🙂

Hope the site keeps behaving itself!
 
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