Supreme Court makes ruling on definition of Woman

[Martin.A]

Do you ever get the feeling we are being divided? Whether it's Brexit, lockdowns, vaccines, net zero, gender, sex, climate change, tax, working from home, virtual relationships, human rights, race etc we seem to be in constant turmoil. To me it feels like despite people doing things with best intentions, there is a push to create tension and strife. Farage said the other day that China bought British steel to shut it down. In times past, wars were fought with physical battles, nowadays it feels like the country is being destroyed from within.

It does seem that way, but then I'm old enough to have grown up in a simpler world.

 

[Inka]

I was contemplating about this last night. I was thinking as spiritual beings where our bodies are simply vessels which carry our soul, spirit and consciousness, how does one feel or get a sense of being a man or woman? I don't wake each day thinking I'm a man or I'm a woman. Is this sense of "being" a man or "being" a woman an innate feeling or is this sense given to us via cultural conditioning? How does one know if you feel like a man or a woman? If we were born in a field with no memories of anything, with nobody in sight, would we be sat there thinking I'm a man or I'm a woman?

Our sex is realised by us in infancy. I am a woman because I have a female body. I am reminded of my sex most days though, simply because men and women are treated differently. My sex also makes me make different decisions, eg not walking by myself at night, not going alone to isolated areas. I probably share feelings with other women but also with men. There’s no one way to be a woman. We are a multitude of different feelings. A woman is simply a female human being.

Women are discriminated against on the basis of sex, which is why this judgement is an important one.

 

[CliffH]

Our sex is realised by us in infancy. I am a woman because I have a female body. I am reminded of my sex most days though, simply because men and women are treated differently. My sex also makes me make different decisions, eg not walking by myself at night, not going alone to isolated areas. I probably share feelings with other women but also with men. There’s no one way to be a woman. We are a multitude of different feelings. A woman is simply a female human being.

Women are discriminated against on the basis of sex, which is why this judgement is an important one.

You've reminded me, Inka, that a colleague of mine has pointed out that women are entitled (if they want to) to celebrate this 'victory' (including drinking alcohol in public, if they want, which of course has been criticised), without feeling that they have to put aside their own feelings to show empathy for another oppressed group.

The reality is that women and trans people are all threatened by cis men, so it's the job of cis men (such as me) to enable women and trans people to feel safe: women don't threaten (physically or sexually or in any other way) trans people.

 

[Inka]

Yes, we’re absolutely entitled to celebrate @CliffH I don’t think people realise the **** women have been through to assert our rights nor the attempts at erasing us as a sex group, not to mention the threats.

You’re right that we don’t have to think about other people all the time, but part of gender says we do. Women are the sandwich-makers, bum-wipers and feelings-soothers of the whole world. As an example, if trans women don’t feel safe in male toilets, that’s a problem for men to solve not women. (Which reminded me of a good book I read: Invisible Women about how the world is designed round men.)

Good luck with solving the problem of male violence! That’s a far bigger topic than I have time for now!

 

[CliffH]

Yes, we’re absolutely entitled to celebrate @CliffH I don’t think people realise the **** women have been through to assert our rights nor the attempts at erasing us as a sex group, not to mention the threats.

You’re right that we don’t have to think about other people all the time, but part of gender says we do. Women are the sandwich-makers, bum-wipers and feelings-soothers of the whole world. As an example, if trans women don’t feel safe in male toilets, that’s a problem for men to solve not women. (Which reminded me of a good book I read: Invisible Women about how the world is designed round men.)

Good luck with solving the problem of male violence! That’s a far bigger topic than I have time for now!

I think that all men have a part to play in reducing male violence. For example, a colleague pointed out today that I was guilty of 'mansplaining'. I was mortified: like many men, I suspect, I thought, "I don't do that".

However, I have to accept that sexism is something that I (as a man in his 60s) grew up with and that it's hard for me to discard it completely, however much I might reject it intellectually. So, all men can and need to do more to reduce our own microaggressions and avoid the complacency of thinking, "It's not all men".

 

[Inka]

Thanks for your support @CliffH A friend sent me these tweets and it reminded me of your comment that women should be allowed to celebrate:

 

[CliffH]

Thanks for your support @CliffH A friend sent me these tweets and it reminded me of your comment that women should be allowed to celebrate:

View attachment 34980

I can't take credit for it I'm afraid: a (female) colleague posted it on a Facebook page and it made me think!

 

[Merluza]

Court ruling on ‘woman’ at odds with UK Equality Act aim, says ex-civil servant

‘Clear premise’ was to give trans and biological women same sex discrimination rights, says official who helped draft act

www.theguardian.com

 

[Inka]

Well that’s clearly wrong @Merluza as trans women don’t need maternity protection. More than that, the exemptions of the EA make clear the need for single sex spaces. I’m sad that you and others value women so little. I suggest you read the judgement.

 

[Amity Island]

Our sex is realised by us in infancy. I am a woman because I have a female body. I am reminded of my sex most days though, simply because men and women are treated differently. My sex also makes me make different decisions, eg not walking by myself at night, not going alone to isolated areas.

Hi Inka,

I am trying to establish where this "sense" of feeling "like" a woman/man comes from. If it is as simple as your sex, then if one is born a woman, then you must feel like a woman, then how do we account for trans people?

Is this sense an innate feeling, irrespective of those around you and culture etc. Is it a contextual thing, felt simply because of what others are doing , how they dress and behave?

I'm trying to pin down where this sense of one's sex comes from and you are the only person I can ask. Such discussions are essentially banned in offices and the like across the UK, due to people looking to be offended.

 

[Inka]

Gender (sex) dysphoria exists @Amity Island People like my trans women friends felt disgust and discomfort at their male bodies. Why? I suppose it’s similar to other conditions related to bodily dysphoria. I know from speaking to them, how much it affected them.

However, recently the trans umbrella has been widened to include all kinds of trans people. In addition, the term ‘transsexual’, which is how both my friends refer to themselves was changed to transgender. This transgender umbrella also included people who were previously referred to as transvestites. Recently, it has also included people who wish to identify as trans due to various other reasons.

 

[Amity Island]

Gender (sex) dysphoria exists @Amity Island People like my trans women friends felt disgust and discomfort at their male bodies. Why? I suppose it’s similar to other conditions related to bodily dysphoria. I know from speaking to them, how much it affected them.

However, recently the trans umbrella has been widened to include all kinds of trans people. In addition, the term ‘transsexual’, which is how both my friends refer to themselves was changed to transgender. This transgender umbrella also included people who were previously referred to as transvestites. Recently, it has also included people who wish to identify as trans due to various other reasons.

Now I understand it and hadn't realised about the umbrella term either. Thanks very much.

 

[CliffH]

Hi Inka,

I am trying to establish where this "sense" of feeling "like" a woman/man comes from. If it is as simple as your sex, then if one is born a woman, then you must feel like a woman, then how do we account for trans people?

Is this sense an innate feeling, irrespective of those around you and culture etc. Is it a contextual thing, felt simply because of what others are doing , how they dress and behave?

I'm trying to pin down where this sense of one's sex comes from and you are the only person I can ask. Such discussions are essentially banned in offices and the like across the UK, due to people looking to be offended.

These discussions are very live currently in my profession - and do elicit strong feelings, on all sides. Actually I've been proud of how my profession has been having thoughtful, respectful debates about the Judgment over the past few days: it's helping me sort out my own thoughts on the issue(s).

Also, Inka's been invaluable: I hadn't thought about the downside of using the term "cis woman" until Inka kindly (and gently) pointed it out.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Sex is determined at conception and observed at birth

As an aside, I think sex develops at something like 6 weeks gestation. One of the Trump edicts was called into question because it mentioned sex as being defined at conception, at which point it was pointed out that all embryos are actually female.

 

[Inka]

As an aside, I think sex develops at something like 6 weeks gestation. One of the Trump edicts was called into question because it mentioned sex as being defined at conception, at which point it was pointed out that all embryos are actually female.

That’s incorrect @everydayupsanddowns (although I was taught that about all embryos being female initially too). Sex is determined at conception - which is why IVF can do sex selection via sperm selection.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

That’s incorrect @everydayupsanddowns (although I was taught that about all embryos being female initially too). Sex is determined at conception - which is why IVF can do sex selection via sperm selection.

I don’t know about selection for IVF, but this seems confirm the developmental / gene expression / foetal ambiguity until 6-8 weeks?

Sex Begins in the Womb - Exploring the Biological Contributions to Human Health - NCBI Bookshelf

“Mammalian embryos remain sexually undifferentiated until the time of sex determination.“

Could sperm gene selection allow control of gene expression? And therefore offer choice of sex in IVF?

It’s all way outside my knowledge really.

I just try to maintain empathy and support for all people affected by this ruling, and (importantly) how their lives may be affected, either positively or negatively, when procedures and protocols begin to be changed as a result of the decision.

I really must read the full judgement!

 

[Inka]

Sex is determined at conception by the sperm @everydayupsanddowns That sets the path it will develop along, ie male or female. The undifferentiated bit means that the gonads and such don’t start to develop until around 6 or 7wks BUT they already have the route along which they will travel encoded into them - by the presence of an X or a Y in the sperm that helped create them. That is, whichever sperm fertilises the egg determines the eventual sex of the embryo. A sperm containing an X will produce a female embryo, a Y a male.

 

[Inka]

My explanation above was simplified but here’s a more scientific explanation:

A process called meiosis determines the sex chromosome that the parents’ germ cells pass on to their offspring. Meiosis occurs inside of the testes and ovaries, the organs in males and females, respectively, that produce germ cells. During meiosis, each cell divides twice, which results in four cells. When the germ cells fuse during fertilization, the resulting embryo will have the normal amount of genetic material, including two sex chromosomes, because it receives one from each parent. Because females tend to only have X chromosomes, the egg cells that they produce typically carry an X chromosome, while the male sperm cell can carry either an X or Y. Therefore, the sex chromosome that a male sperm carries determines whether the offspring will develop into a male or a female.

Sex Determination in Humans | Embryo Project Encyclopedia

In humans, sex determination is the process that determines the biological sex of an offspring and, as a result, the sexual characteristics that they will develop. Humans typically develop as either male or female, primarily depending on the combination of sex chromosomes that they inherit from...

embryo.asu.edu

.

 

[Amity Island]

These discussions are very live currently in my profession - and do elicit strong feelings, on all sides. Actually I've been proud of how my profession has been having thoughtful, respectful debates about the Judgment over the past few days: it's helping me sort out my own thoughts on the issue(s).

Also, Inka's been invaluable: I hadn't thought about the downside of using the term "cis woman" until Inka kindly (and gently) pointed it out.

I can only speak from own experience, but if you are able to discuss these sorts of topics at work, you must be in a niche profession. Last night I was in an restaurant and a lady I was talking to mentioned this new ruling about women. She said she recently left a job because there was an employee who wanted to be known under the pronoun "they", which the lady I was talking to was happy to do. But....the employer also wanted her to sign something which said she also fully believed and bought into this different belief about gender, sex etc.

Where do we currently stand on our own thoughts and beliefs? Provided we respect and accommodate others, are we under any obligation to change our thoughts and beliefs about the world?

 

[CliffH]

I can only speak from own experience, but if you are able to discuss these sorts of topics at work, you must be in a niche profession. Last night I was in an restaurant and a lady I was talking to mentioned this new ruling about women. She said she recently left a job because there was an employee who wanted to be known under the pronoun "they", which the lady I was talking to was happy to do. But....the employer also wanted her to sign something which said she also fully believed and bought into this different belief about gender, sex etc.

Where do we currently stand on our own thoughts and beliefs? Provided we respect and accommodate others, are we under any obligation to change our thoughts and beliefs about the world?

I'm a Clinical Psychologist: many of us have trans colleagues and almost all of us sometimes have trans clients. Traditionally it's a very left-wing profession, with a strong history of challenging the psychiatric orthodoxy. This means that it tends to attract radical feminists (of which I regard myself as being one) and so most of us have a great deal of sympathy for people on both sides of this debate.

My overriding view is that the onus is for men as a whole (including me) to accept our responsibility for the violence that women and trans people fear: violence in society is almost entirely perpetrated by men. That includes 'micro-aggressions' such as 'mansplaining'.

Saying, "It's not all men" misses the point: it is all men, because we all can and need to do more to reduce (fear of) male violence, however wonderful we might think our own behaviour is towards women and trans people. For example, whilst we still need to advise teenage girls to be careful when out in the dark, even more we need to tell teenage boys that they have to do everything they can (including 'policing' their friends' speech and actions and not hanging around in groups) to enable teenage girls to feel safer in the dark.