Rare myocarditis after COVID shots: Study rules out some common culprits

[Dragonheart]

I think some honesty would help. Instead of unequivically stating "safe and effective" how about

Safe most of the time
Safe for many
Safe for some people
etc etc

Where is the harm in being truthful?

and on the effectiveness, again, some honesty would help here too. Instead of giving only the sales pitch figures (95% effective), the ones that sound most impressive, the ones most likely to result in higher take up, give also the absolute effectives too.

Same could be said for many things medical and political.

Is this an admission your quoted 1% is your opinion not a fact?

 

[Dragonheart]

None of us had a say in this throughout 2020, there wasn't much we could do to prevent catching it. The ones that either died or got really sick all had really high levels of a "snake like" venom (enzyme) in their blood.

No we didn’t have a lot of say but self protective measures/choices on top of the government mandated ones did make our odds of infection lower.

What enzyme do you refer to?

 

[Amity Island]

Same could be said for many things medical and political.

Is this an admission your quoted 1% is your opinion not a fact?

See my post no 19

 

[Amity Island]

No we didn’t have a lot of say but self protective measures/choices on top of the government mandated ones did make our odds of infection lower.

Yes, but I was explaining that having had covid19 (which many of us had already had during 2020), then we had already acquired immunity by the time the 1% effective prophylactics were made available.

 

[Dragonheart]

Here's the facts from CDC. First column ARR absolute risk reduction. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9115787/ Pfizer gives a 0.84 absolute risk reduction. Bearing in mind we already had a 99% chance of survival without any vaccine.

BNT162b2​	[3]​	0.84​	95.0​	119​
(Pfizer-BioNtech)​	​	​	​	​
mRNA1273​	[4]​	1.24​	94.1​	81​
(Moderna-NIH)​	​	​	​	​
ChAdOx1nCoV19​	[5]​	1.11​	72.8​	90​
(Astra Zeneca – Oxford)​	​	​	​	​
Ad26CoV2S​	[6]​	1.19​	66.9​	84​
(Johnson & Johnson)​	​	​	​	​
GamCovidVac​	[7]​	0.93​	91.0​	86​
(Gamaleya)​	​	​	​	​
NVX-CoV2373​	[8]​	1.23​	89.7​	82​
(Novavax)​	​	​	​	​
CORONAVAC​	[9]​	0.76​	83.5​	131​
(Sinovac)​	​	​	​	​
WIBP-CorV​	[10]​	0.54​	72.8​	185​
(Wuhan – Sinopharm)​	​	​	​	​
BBIBP-CorV​	[10]​	0.58​	78.1​	172​
(Beijing – Sinopharm)​	​	​	​	​

“The unusual conditions under which COVID-19 vaccines have been tested (in particular social distancing, that cannot be maintained for a long time), possibly makes ARR an unreliable ‘effectiveness predictor’ of vaccination at population level.”
”or, as recently seen after diffusion of Delta and Omicron variants, will reduce severe COVID-19 cases, preventing health services overload. The latter are better predicted by RRR of contracting COVID-19 (any degree of severity or severe disease, respectively), crudely expressing the proportion of vaccinated subjects that will be protected, rather than by ARR,”

 

[Amity Island]

“The unusual conditions under which COVID-19 vaccines have been tested (in particular social distancing, that cannot be maintained for a long time), possibly makes ARR an unreliable ‘effectiveness predictor’ of vaccination at population level.”
”or, as recently seen after diffusion of Delta and Omicron variants, will reduce severe COVID-19 cases, preventing health services overload. The latter are better predicted by RRR of contracting COVID-19 (any degree of severity or severe disease, respectively), crudely expressing the proportion of vaccinated subjects that will be protected, rather than by ARR,”

Are you now agreeing that my quote of 1% absolute effectiveness is based on fact not opinion?

 

[Amity Island]

“The unusual conditions under which COVID-19 vaccines have been tested (in particular social distancing, that cannot be maintained for a long time), possibly makes ARR an unreliable ‘effectiveness predictor’ of vaccination at population level.”
”or, as recently seen after diffusion of Delta and Omicron variants, will reduce severe COVID-19 cases, preventing health services overload. The latter are better predicted by RRR of contracting COVID-19 (any degree of severity or severe disease, respectively), crudely expressing the proportion of vaccinated subjects that will be protected, rather than by ARR,”

The people have a right to know both relative and absolute risk reduction values (and all other relevant trial data) as part of informed consent. If we are not informed, then we cannot give informed consent can we.

 

[Amity Island]

What enzyme do you refer to?

phospholipase A2 group IIA, or sPLA2-IIA

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Given studies have shown that those that contracted covid19 acquired immunity which provides far broader immunity at least equal or better than a vaccine, it matters not, to those with acquired immunity how safe a drug is as they just don't need to take it and hence no need to take the risk, especially for what would equate to a 1% absolute effectiveness.

Again, I think this is a bit of a distraction from what the paper's looking at.

Even if you think mRNA is no longer useful for C19 because one way or another we all now have a good immune response (in the surviving population, that is, and ignoring people who don't respond well to vaccines), the technology for producing vaccines is an effective one (it's fast and the vaccines produce a strong immune response), so it's valuable to work out how the side effects happen so they can be ameliorated.

I think they're too expensive to be used for most vaccines, but there's reason to be hopeful they can be used in cancer treatment (which was one of the original ideas). For example, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37165196/

 

[helli]

I was never of the opinion that the covid vaccines would protect me from contracting covid - they haven't.
But I believed they could significantly reduce the impact of the infection.

Last week a small household of two people (me and my partner) contracted covid.
One person had a vaccination in November. The other had not had a vaccination for more than a year.
The November vaccinated one who had other medical issues (me) got a cold and as I work from home, no work was lost.
The one with an older vaccination who has no medical conditions and is younger, was floored for a week spending most of that in bed sleeping.
I appreciate this is a very small sample but does support my beliefs about vaccines reducing the impact of the infection.

 

[Dragonheart]

I was never of the opinion that the covid vaccines would protect me from contracting covid - they haven't.
But I believed they could significantly reduce the impact of the infection.

Last week a small household of two people (me and my partner) contracted covid.
One person had a vaccination in November. The other had not had a vaccination for more than a year.
The November vaccinated one who had other medical issues (me) got a cold and as I work from home, no work was lost.
The one with an older vaccination who has no medical conditions and is younger, was floored for a week spending most of that in bed sleeping.
I appreciate this is a very small sample but does support my beliefs about vaccines reducing the impact of the infection.

Similarly I know a young healthy person who now has had it 4 times. All after the initial 2 jabs and booster. Each time it has been worse, beginning with “just a cold” to more recently floored for almost two weeks. Is that because of further time from the last booster or cumulative damage despite theoretically infection boosted immunity?

 

[helli]

Similarly I know a young healthy person who now has had it 4 times. All after the initial 2 jabs and booster. Each time it has been worse, beginning with “just a cold” to more recently floored for almost two weeks. Is that because of further time from the last booster or cumulative damage despite theoretically infection boosted immunity?

I have had covid twice and both times have felt very similar - just like a cold.
This was the first time for my younger, fitter, healthier partner. If it gets worse for him each time, I hope it is the only time he gets it.

 

[Amity Island]

I was never of the opinion that the covid vaccines would protect me from contracting covid - they haven't.
But I believed they could significantly reduce the impact of the infection.

You might find these stats interesting.

 

[Amity Island]

That attachment is completely irrelevant to whether the vaccine causes issues or the degree of protection it provides. It’s merely a FOI request for various occupations and death numbers over the pandemic which were not held by the organisation it was sent to so doesn’t even give any stats.

? It just shows what the risk of death was to those on the front line (highly exposed) during the pandemic e.g no deaths in scotland from covid. Thus, then in that case, how much can any drug reduce deaths (as claimed) if they were aleady zero? In terms of reducing severe illness, the graph below shows how long terms sickness in the workforce has been increasing (not reducing).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1590647207858171904

 

[Dragonheart]

? It just shows what the risk of death was to those on the front line (highly exposed) during the pandemic e.g no deaths in scotland from covid. Thus, then in that case, how much can any drug reduce deaths (as claimed) if they were aleady zero? In terms of reducing severe illness, the graph below shows how long terms sickness in the workforce has been increasing (not reducing).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1590647207858171904

And the point being discussed was that death is not the only negative outcome of the virus and that the vaccines reduce those as well as deaths so you’d need to count those too to have answers not just deaths.

Lots of things are being proposed why the sickness rates have risen. I think a popular denialist one is that it’s the poor quality desks and chairs people used at home v the superior () chairs used in most work places. In reality mental health, refusal of workplaces to provide accommodations/protections, revised decisions about not working and overall quality of life, pre existing vulnerabilities made worse by covid and long covid are likely to be significant factors. The latter of which are like the foulest of swear words in government circles as allegedly its all over with no lasting effects on health.

 

[Amity Island]

It does NOT say there were zero deaths. It says they did not record the numbers asked for.

Do you mean they don't record the stats in Scotland for deaths by using the SOC standardard occupational classification as they do in England and Wales?

 

[Amity Island]

I mean the document you claim gives zero deaths actually gives no data and you are misrepresenting it.

The same question was asked about doctors and nurses in the workforce.

“Can you tell me the total amount of doctors and nurses that have died from COVID-
19 in Scotland from 2020-2022"


There have been no deaths registered between 2020 and 2022 for doctors
(SOC2010 code 2211) or nurses (SOC2010 code 2231).

 

[Dragonheart]

Ok I’m going to have to eat my hat and admit I misread the documents. (I’ve edited earlier comments to avoid misleading the thread but they remain in your replies). I haven’t dug into them to see what the criteria was but I’d say that was a huge win if deaths were prevented in these categories in Scotland in that date range. Wouldn’t that lend itself to the argument it was the vaccines that meant deaths were avoided?

 

[bulkbiker]

Wouldn’t that lend itself to the argument it was the vaccines that meant deaths were avoided?

In 2020?

 

[Amity Island]

And the point being discussed was that death is not the only negative outcome of the virus and that the vaccines reduce those as well as deaths so you’d need to count those too to have answers not just deaths.

I understand that yes. I was only making the point that, how do we measure the effectiveness a drug may have against preventing death in those aged between 18 and 64 in the workforce if there were no deaths before the rollout?

One can't improve on zero.