Questions about Newcastle diet, weight loss and what comes after

[Leadinglights]

I see. That's helpful to know. Well, I can't wait for weeks and do nothing, but I suppose I could leave the shakes for now and focus on Harcombe and other low carb suggestions, and what I want things to look like afterwards anyway.
I have an appointment for blood tests on Saturday, as I said, so I'll try and ask questions then and how long they expect I'll have to wait to be contacted (questions about timings and so on, not about diet, as the people available to talk with won't know). Like you said, "Anything to rid myself of the nasty blood glucose and being obese" 🙂

You don't know how long you will have to wait so it is better to start to take some action now, it is never too soon to make some changes. It is for your benefit not theirs.
You may find that the approach of low carb if that is what you choose is working, is enjoyable and sustainable.
I think you have to be somebody who likes bland foods to find the soups and shakes regime acceptable.

 

[beating_my_betes]

I am going on this diet in September and yes I agree I will white knuckle it through the 12 weeks but if you're on the Oviva which I think sounds like the Newcastle diet then you get a coach for a year. At first, it's weekly then two weekly, and possibly monthly then 3 monthly I would imagine, There is a Facebook site where you can talk to others here and there, and a phone number to call. Like any diet, you have to work it to work. All things have negatives taking one's medication and the correct diet for diabetes for some is a doddle for me it is pure torture, I am coping at the moment with less food but I went crazy when my daughter was here, and know a Chinese take away has to be what I like and not makeshift low carb. It is like chocolate a piece of dark on the low carb is not as naughty as a bar of Galaxy or a magnum. Yes, I am excited to give this a go. to see if I can get my sugars and weight in order. Good Luck, to those who I say can be positive and try.

Not sure why you got the impression I'm being negative. All I was doing was just expressing caution.

The diet was designed as a science experiment, with certain aims. I can't say for sure, but I imagine the set calorie amount was that low to ensure a very clear result i.e as low calorie as possible while still trying to hit various nutritional targets. That doesn't necessarily mean that 800kcal is the important factor. In fact, before Taylor did this work such a low amount of consumption would be viewed as a crash diet, and most would advise against it. But it's still a crash diet, and that comes with all the potential risks of crash diets.

That being said, I'm not against using crash diets. I will be doing one in the coming months. All I'm trying to do is get people to research and prepare for the ways that the body responds when forced into such a deficit, so that the negatives can hopefully be avoided.

I absolutely agree that all diets work if people work them properly, and i think it's important for people to find the thing that either appeals, or is the least restrictive, so that they can stick to the plan. I've already commented that I think the idea of meal-replacement, whether shakes or explicitly prescriptive meal plans, can work for many people as it takes the choice out of the equation. Those moments of choice especially if experiencing hunger, are the weakest point in the chain.

I'm glad you're excited about it. I'm excited for you. Will look forward to you sharing 🙂

 

[Nayshiftin]

You don't know how long you will have to wait so it is better to start to take some action now, it is never too soon to make some changes. It is for you benefit not theirs.
You may find that the approach of low carb if that is what you choose is working, is enjoyable and sustainable.
I think you have to be somebody who likes bland foods to find the soups and shakes regime acceptable.

To be honest the thought of the shakes soup and bars is getting less appealing. However, I thought it would get my sugar down and get me into more discipline than I am now.
I really was doing well on the low carb until they put me on medication and that to be honest threw everything all wrong.
Still it is for my benefit to sort myself out.
Diabetes is so unrewarding when you cannot eat the same thing and get the same results.
I am going to stick to 3 tablespoons of Greek yoghurt and 5 small strawberries for breakfast until I can tell myself that's enough until lunch. But as blood glucose is high and we get paid Wed maybe blueberries from Thursday may be better.
I do not really know.
It is hard trying to fit meals in that keep you feeling full enough. It seems unfair when hubby can eat Weetabix and toast and biscuits and have good blood and a good figure. Still, I have not to look at others.
So I am doing this as a reset and hope to lose enough and then go back into low carb as it does work for me.

 

[Leadinglights]

To be honest the thought of the shakes soup and bars is getting less appealing. However, I thought it would get my sugar down and get me into more discipline than I am now.
I really was doing well on the low carb until they put me on medication and that to be honest threw everything all wrong.
Still it is for my benefit to sort myself out.
Diabetes is so unrewarding when you cannot eat the same thing and get the same results.
I am going to stick to 3 tablespoons of Greek yoghurt and 5 small strawberries for breakfast until I can tell myself that's enough until lunch. But as blood glucose is high and we get paid Wed maybe blueberries from Thursday may be better.
I do not really know.
It is hard trying to fit meals in that keep you feeling full enough. It seems unfair when hubby can eat Weetabix and toast and biscuits and have good blood and a good figure. Still, I have not to look at others.
So I am doing this as a reset and hope to lose enough and then go back into low carb as it does work for me.

Strawberries are half the carbs of blueberries for the same portion.
I am interested to know why you think being on the medication made things go all wrong.

 

[Nayshiftin]

Not sure why you got the impression I'm being negative. All I was doing was just expressing caution.

The diet was designed as a science experiment, with certain aims. I can't say for sure, but I imagine the set calorie amount was that low to ensure a very clear result i.e as low calorie as possible while still trying to hit various nutritional targets. That doesn't necessarily mean that 800kcal is the important factor. In fact, before Taylor did this work such a low amount of consumption would be viewed as a crash diet, and most would advise against it. But it's still a crash diet, and that comes with all the potential risks of crash diets.

That being said, I'm not against using crash diets. I will be doing one in the coming months. All I'm trying to do is get people to research and prepare for the ways that the body responds when forced into such a deficit, so that the negatives can hopefully be avoided.

I absolutely agree that all diets work if people work them properly, and i think it's important for people to find the thing that either appeals, or is the least restrictive, so that they can stick to the plan. I've already commented that I think the idea of meal-replacement, whether shakes or explicitly prescriptive meal plans, can work for many people as it takes the choice out of the equation. Those moments of choice especially if experiencing hunger, are the weakest point in the chain.

I'm glad you're excited about it. I'm excited for you. Will look forward to you sharing 🙂

I'm not a medical professional, so don't take my reply as anything more than an opinion.

I'm very wary of this plan. It's not that it can't and/or doesn't work. And I do think that Roy Taylor has and is doing so much to further our understanding when it comes to diabetes. The issue is that the given diet is unnecessarily extreme and is indistinguishable to any of many other short-term crash diets.

I guess here is where I saw some negativity


On the positive side, it's very explicit in its recommendations, which pretty much takes all the guesswork out of the process. And drinking meal substitutes can certainly make it all much simpler. But I believe the potential negatives outweigh any positives.
To be fair and honest I am not 100% about it either I am just trying to get my blood glucose to be good and my weight so no one can pick on me all the time.
It is not personal to you but very personal to me. Being obese and told you are lazy etc makes me cry.
I do not think anyone wants this and I do wonder if we are obese because we have this because our bodies have a reason for it. No, I do not want to be fat. Everything is just not our fault and I think like arthritis I do not get that sitting about either. I'm not well and cant say exactly what I mean but life is tough.

 

[Nayshiftin]

Strawberries are half the carbs of blueberries for the same portion.
I am interested to know why you think being on the medication made things go all wrong.

I did not test as much told not to, I got very very hungry and low mood and my sugars continued to rise. Look at the bottom of my reading. i went from over a hundred to nearly half it on the 12-week diabetes UK diet she started meds and it went up and up from there. medication never ever lowers me. It is not insulin and it's not Glicazide or any that do. For me, it was a setback to be given and a pat on the back but I react badly to most medication. Or not as I should. I can't take paracetamol. yet am diabetic and can take Ibuprofen. I was breathless this am took Ibuprofen and I have settled so I have no idea. I took it mainly as my head was thumping but I can still read and type.
Two hours after the strawberries it went down .3 so I see that as staying the same 12.6 to 12.3/I will take it before and after lunch. Going to have egg on toast well, the toast is a bread muffin bake from freshwell so it should be good.

 

[beating_my_betes]

I'm not a medical professional, so don't take my reply as anything more than an opinion.

I'm very wary of this plan. It's not that it can't and/or doesn't work. And I do think that Roy Taylor has and is doing so much to further our understanding when it comes to diabetes. The issue is that the given diet is unnecessarily extreme and is indistinguishable to any of many other short-term crash diets.

I guess here is where I saw some negativity


On the positive side, it's very explicit in its recommendations, which pretty much takes all the guesswork out of the process. And drinking meal substitutes can certainly make it all much simpler. But I believe the potential negatives outweigh any positives.
To be fair and honest I am not 100% about it either I am just trying to get my blood glucose to be good and my weight so no one can pick on me all the time.
It is not personal to you but very personal to me. Being obese and told you are lazy etc makes me cry.
I do not think anyone wants this and I do wonder if we are obese because we have this because our bodies have a reason for it. No, I do not want to be fat. Everything is just not our fault and I think like arthritis I do not get that sitting about either. I'm not well and cant say exactly what I mean but life is tough.

Saying that I think the negatives outweigh the positives is not being negative, it's being pragmatic and realistic. At a population-level, I believe that this is unnecessarily extreme for most, and the same results could be achieved, albeit a bit more slowly, with a plan that isn't so extreme.

That doesn't mean it doesn't work for many, and it doesn't mean it won't work for you. I thought that part was quite clear.

As for obesity? I'm 100lbs-ish overweight, and have been overweight in some form or other since the mid-70's. I've done many things along the way that worked for me, but ultimately I've generally been someone who has relied on food to take the edge off my experience of life.

It's a shame many of us have had to experience negativity concerning our weight. It's not a fun experience. And laziness needn't be anything to do with it. But as to whether our bodies have a reason for being fat? I can only speak for myself, but I'm acutely aware of every wayward calorie, every indulgence, every midnight-snack, every entire pack of biscuits, family bar of chocolate etc. etc. etc. that has got me here.

My fault and my responsibility to change it.

 

[Nayshiftin]

Saying that I think the negatives outweigh the positives is not being negative, it's being pragmatic and realistic. At a population-level, I believe that this is unnecessarily extreme for most, and the same results could be achieved, albeit a bit more slowly, with a plan that isn't so extreme.

That doesn't mean it doesn't work for many, and it doesn't mean it won't work for you. I thought that part was quite clear.

As for obesity? I'm 100lbs-ish overweight, and have been overweight in some form or other since the mid-70's. I've done many things along the way that worked for me, but ultimately I've generally been someone who has relied on food to take the edge off my experience of life.

It's a shame many of us have had to experience negativity concerning our weight. It's not a fun experience. And laziness needn't be anything to do with it. But as to whether our bodies have a reason for being fat? I can only speak for myself, but I'm acutely aware of every wayward calorie, every indulgence, every midnight-snack, every entire pack of biscuits, family bar of chocolate etc. etc. etc. that has got me here.

My fault and my responsibility to change it.

As you say pragmatic and your prerogative . Each to their own .

 

[Meglorien]

I'm not a medical professional, so don't take my reply as anything more than an opinion.

I'm very wary of this plan. It's not that it can't and/or doesn't work. And I do think that Roy Taylor has and is doing so much to further our understanding when it comes to diabetes. The issue is that the given diet is unnecessarily extreme and is indistinguishable to any of many other short-term crash diets.

I guess here is where I saw some negativity


On the positive side, it's very explicit in its recommendations, which pretty much takes all the guesswork out of the process. And drinking meal substitutes can certainly make it all much simpler. But I believe the potential negatives outweigh any positives.
To be fair and honest I am not 100% about it either I am just trying to get my blood glucose to be good and my weight so no one can pick on me all the time.
It is not personal to you but very personal to me. Being obese and told you are lazy etc makes me cry.
I do not think anyone wants this and I do wonder if we are obese because we have this because our bodies have a reason for it. No, I do not want to be fat. Everything is just not our fault and I think like arthritis I do not get that sitting about either. I'm not well and cant say exactly what I mean but life is tough.

I did not test as much told not to, I got very very hungry and low mood and my sugars continued to rise. Look at the bottom of my reading. i went from over a hundred to nearly half it on the 12-week diabetes UK diet she started meds and it went up and up from there. medication never ever lowers me. It is not insulin and it's not Glicazide or any that do. For me, it was a setback to be given and a pat on the back but I react badly to most medication. Or not as I should. I can't take paracetamol. yet am diabetic and can take Ibuprofen. I was breathless this am took Ibuprofen and I have settled so I have no idea. I took it mainly as my head was thumping but I can still read and type.
Two hours after the strawberries it went down .3 so I see that as staying the same 12.6 to 12.3/I will take it before and after lunch. Going to have egg on toast well, the toast is a bread muffin bake from freshwell so it should be good.

I followed a real food version of the Newcastle Diet to lose 15 kg in just over two months and, gradually increasing quantities, 22 kg in total to get back into the trousers I wore in twenties (just as Professor Taylor said I could in his book). I am extemely happy with the outcome.

Would I do it again in the same way? No, I was far too tetchy at times. I would go for something like the Harcombe diet which is good for weight loss and, as I have discovered, for weight maintenance. Zoe Harcombe explains the principles in her article What should we eat?

I think it would be good to start with Shakes for 2-4 weeks and then switch, if only to convince your GP that you can come off medication (if you are taking it).

See notes in bold in your questions above in the quote.

P.S. Roy Taylor devised his diet for clinical trials. It has subsequently been adopted for managed programmes, such as the NHS Path to Remission. He has always advised individuals to go for portion control or any other means of losing the weight necessary to get your liver and pancreas back to normal.

Thank you for this thorough reply, JITR. It was very elucidating. I don't think I want to eat 800cal forever. I will definitely not want to be on the shakes forever, but I do want to be on the programme, not only because other things I've tried by myself didn't work, but also because it comes with more support. The first thing I was given was medicine and access to an education course that only starts in October. I really wanted not to be on meds, if it can be avoided, as it clearly can in my case for now. So I'll go this way, but I'm very much looking at the "in the meantime" and "after 12 weeks on shakes". So your experience and advice you share above is invaluable to me and I really appreciate it. I'm also not going to pretend this is going to be easy. It's going to be hard work and I'll have to keep working at it the rest of my life. But hopefully I'll come to a point where devising meals (I'm a creative in the kitchen) without having to think loads about it. Lots of people seem to have got there in this forum, so I'm very hopeful.

 

[JITR]

@Meglorien. A quick note. To recap, Professor Taylor and his team came up with the shakes and 800 calorie programme for a clinical trial in 2007-8. This was to prove T2 diabetes, for people without other complications, could be put into remission by eliminating excess fat from the liver and pancreas. The main question, as you say, is what to eat before and afterwards. Long term weight maintenance being the main issue. What helped me deal with maintenance was Zoe Harcombe's approach to weight loss which she describes in this article, What should we eat? https://www.zoeharcombe.com/2021/08/what-should-we-eat/. So I'd suggest trying a good dietary plan like hers before the starting the shakes so you know what to do afterwards. Basically all these diets come down to the list of foods you can eat and your creativity in making the most of them. You can modify things as you go along. I found Nikki Segnit's Flavour Thesaurus invaluable, not least her anecdote about the combination of onions and peppers she enjoyed in Portugal.

 

[Burylancs]

@Meglorien. A quick note. To recap, Professor Taylor and his team came up with the shakes and 800 calorie programme for a clinical trial in 2007-8. This was to prove T2 diabetes, for people without other complications, could be put into remission by eliminating excess fat from the liver and pancreas. The main question, as you say, is what to eat before and afterwards. Long term weight maintenance being the main issue. What helped me deal with maintenance was Zoe Harcombe's approach to weight loss which she describes in this article, What should we eat? https://www.zoeharcombe.com/2021/08/what-should-we-eat/. So I'd suggest trying a good dietary plan like hers before the starting the shakes so you know what to do afterwards. Basically all these diets come down to the list of foods you can eat and your creativity in making the most of them. You can modify things as you go along. I found Nikki Segnit's Flavour Thesaurus invaluable, not least her anecdote about the combination of onions and peppers she enjoyed in Portugal.

Taylor used the Cambridge Diet in his experiments which has been around since the 1960s. As such it had a traditional balance of nutrients ( 'high carb' some would say) of 60% of calories from carbs, 10 -20% from protein and 20-30% from fats. It's the formula from Ancel Keys important and influential 1959 book, 'Eat well and stay well'. It's also close to the Diabetes UK recommendation up until very recently of 45 -60% of calories from carbs depending physical activity and work., 10-20% from protein and up to 35% from fats including at least 25% from 'good fats'.

 

[JITR]

Taylor used the Cambridge Diet in his experiments which has been around since the 1960s. As such it had a traditional balance of nutrients ( 'high carb' some would say) of 60% of calories from carbs, 10 -20% from protein and 20-30% from fats.

No. 'After the baseline measurements, individuals with type 2 diabetes started the diet, which consisted of a liquid diet formula (46.4% carbohydrate, 32.5% protein and 20.1% fat; vitamins, minerals and trace elements; 2.1 MJ/day [510 kcal/day]; Optifast; Nestlé Nutrition, Croydon, UK)'.

Ref: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00125-011-2204-7

 

[Burylancs]

No. 'After the baseline measurements, individuals with type 2 diabetes started the diet, which consisted of a liquid diet formula (46.4% carbohydrate, 32.5% protein and 20.1% fat; vitamins, minerals and trace elements; 2.1 MJ/day [510 kcal/day]; Optifast; Nestlé Nutrition, Croydon, UK)'.

Ref: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00125-011-2204-7

LOL. 11 people for 8 weeks ! That's not the classic DiRECT study.

 

[JITR]

The 11 people proved fatty liver and T2 are reversible, a world first.There was a subsequent paper about 77 of the people from around the world who reversed theirs after the Counterpoint study results were published. Professor Taylor recommended them to follow a portion controlled diet, not shakes.

 

[Drummer]

When I worked on the Cambridge Diet sachets there were three desserts which were set with gelatine - I suspect that one reason I make the sugar free jelly with berries and other stuff is down to that early experience,
There were strawberry, peach and chocolate flavours and they were quite popular with the female staff at Lyons Tetley's development labs in Market Harborough. I don't know if they were ever part of 'The Cambridge Diet' as Dr Howard was always looked after by senior management when he visited the plant. I know that he saw my results as they came and raided my filing cabinets and I had to request a stapler in order to keep things together in the right order.

 

[Meglorien]

I have a date to start the NHS remission path (18th Sept). We'll see how that goes.
In the meantime I'm looking at all the advice here, planning for afterwards, for the transition period and beyond. My appointments will be online and they're meant to help you through the transition perios after the 12 weeks. The programme is 12 months.
Birthdays, travelling and stress are all a thing, as is being part of a family which means cooking for others. This is going to be interesting...

 

[Nayshiftin]

I have a date to start the NHS remission path (18th Sept). We'll see how that goes.
In the meantime I'm looking at all the advice here, planning for afterwards, for the transition period and beyond. My appointments will be online and they're meant to help you through the transition perios after the 12 weeks. The programme is 12 months.
Birthdays, travelling and stress are all a thing, as is being part of a family which means cooking for others. This is going to be interesting...

Im more anxious now and would love to confort eat.

 

[snowball12]

I'm not a medical professional, so don't take my reply as anything more than an opinion.

I'm very wary of this plan. It's not that it can't and/or doesn't work. And I do think that Roy Taylor has and is doing so much to further our understanding when it comes to diabetes. The issue is that the given diet is unnecessarily extreme and is indistinguishable to any of many other short-term crash diets.

On the positive side, it's very explicit in its recommendations, which pretty much takes all the guesswork out of the process. And drinking meal substitutes can certainly make it all much simpler. But I believe the potential negatives outweigh any positives.

This is also my thoughts regarding this diet. I lasted one week and was absolutely starving and felt very unwell

 

[Burylancs]

The 11 people proved fatty liver and T2 are reversible, a world first.There was a subsequent paper about 77 of the people from around the world who reversed theirs after the Counterpoint study results were published. Professor Taylor recommended them to follow a portion controlled diet, not shakes.

Nobody has ever 'reversed' a secure dx of Type 2 Diabetes. Taylor gave up the term and replaced it with 'remission' in the 2018 Lancet article. Presumably the Lancet refused to allow the term 'reversed' to be used for fear of becoming a laughing stock by publishing a claim that an author could walk on water.

 

[JITR]

Nobody has ever 'reversed' a secure dx of Type 2 Diabetes. Taylor gave up the term and replaced it with 'remission' in the 2018 Lancet article. Presumably the Lancet refused to allow the term 'reversed' to be used for fear of becoming a laughing stock by publishing a claim that an author could walk on water.

I reversed my fatty liver, confirmed by ultrasound scans, and put my T2 into remission. What's more I expect it to remain in remission in future while I am here to keep my weight down. Roy Taylor's book, Life without Diabetes T2, was responsible for that. Give credit where it is due,