Podcast - ultra processed food

[Inka]

Yes, some processing is beneficial eg pasteurising milk, or it simply processes natural foods in a way we could have done ourselves if we had time.

What shocked me in the original programme was the big change in the percentage of UPFs we ate compared to some years ago, and mainly the shocking percentage of children’s calorie intake that came from very processed foods.

 

[rebrascora]

Yes, some processing is beneficial eg pasteurising milk, or it simply processes natural foods in a way we could have done ourselves if we had time.

Actually I wonder if it is the likes of pasteurising milk which is responsible for the high number of allergies and autoimmune conditions in modern society. I was brought up on unpasteurised milk but when the EU rules came in after we joined the common market, our milkman went out of business and then of course you just get used to buying your milk from the supermarket.
if I wasn't now eating low carb I would buy my milk from a Pedigree Jersey Herd farm a few miles up the road who sell their milk raw, but I drink so little milk these days it wouldn't be worth it and they don't sell their cream as they use it to make ice cream.

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[Deleted member 21371]

The majority of milk is homogenised now anyway, the days of the cream on top of the milk have passed.
That alone should make milk ultra processed.

 

[Inka]

@rebrascora It’s homogenisation that freaks me out most. Apparently it alters the size of the fat particles and how the body deals with them. For that reason, I have milk delivered in glass bottles from a local farm and it’s been pasteurised but not homogenised so still has the cream on the top @travellor

 

[Deleted member 21371]

@rebrascora It’s homogenisation that freaks me out most. Apparently it alters the size of the fat particles and how the body deals with them. For that reason, I have milk delivered in glass bottles from a local farm and it’s been pasteurised but not homogenised so still has the cream on the top @travellor

I can't worry about it too much, I was delivering homogenised milk (not the usual to be fair though) forty years ago when I had a weekend job delivering milk. It's been around for quite a while.

 

[rebrascora]

@Inka I must confess that I haven't looked into how they achieve homogenisation. I assume it is a means of emulsifying but without using an additive.
I may rethink my whole relationship with milk and revert to the farm up the road and just buy raw and decant all the lovely Jersey cream off the top for my coffee.... or maybe I just need to buy myself a cow! Whilst the milk I get from the shop is produced locally it is both pasteurised and homogenised as I guess is the same with the cream, since you don't end up with a watery layer in the bottom and really thick on top.

I am evolving my thinking on food and how much I am prepared to compromise on my low carb objectives if it means I can eat more "cleanly". I am coming to the conclusion that I would rather have my tart fruits stewed with a little brown sugar or honey than sweetener etc. As with everything, the reality is more complex, the more you look into things and as with most things in life, it involves some compromise and finding a balance.

 

[Inka]

They force the milk through tiny holes at very high speed and that breaks down the fat globules. There have been various studies about the effect of that on the human body with regard to heart disease, Type 1 diabetes, etc. The jury is still out, I think.

I much prefer the taste of non-homogenised milk. I’d forgotten how different it tasted until I found my supplier. I’d assumed all doorstep milk would be non-homogenised but then found that was t true so googled and found my supplier. Some M&S milk is non-homogenised too, and some of the Jersey ones.

 

[rebrascora]

@Inka I used to prefer the taste of raw milk, but that was because it was all I knew up until I was about mid teens and when I tasted pasteurised it tasted weird and took some getting used to. I have to be honest I found less change in flavour between pasteurised and homogenised possibly because there was little time between the two. I will happily go back to raw and unhomogenised, it is just that I drink so little milk these days that it didn't seem worthwhile making the trip to the farm for it and they don't sell cream otherwise I would have been buying it from them. I actually go through more cream than milk in a week but I have always loved milk so maybe it needs to feature in my diet more and cut carbs elsewhere.

 

[rebrascora]

Maybe if I bought more milk I could make my own yoghurt with it. Need to do more research on this.

 

[Inka]

I buy small amounts for drinks @rebrascora and also use KoKo coconut milk. So hopefully I’m getting the best of both worlds. It’s the consistency of the non-homogenised milk too that I like. It was weird the other day when I bought some supermarket milk because it reminded me of white paint when I poured it out. To my palate, it’s just tasteless compared to non-homogenised.

A bonus is that I’m buying local and supporting a local business.

 

[helli]

I used to always have milk in my tea and didn't think much about it.
When I moved to Germany, the milk available at work was condensed milk which, to my tastes, did work work in tea. So I started to drink my tea black. Nowadays, tea with milky tastes horrible.
I don't eat cereal and when I did I used to eat it dry. I don't remember why but remember eating and enjoying weetabix with butter on for breakfast.
Coffee has never agreed with my tastebuds.
So, unless it is a cold day in the middle of winter and I need a hot chocolate, I don't use any milk. I eat yoghurt and bake with butter (I use more interesting spreads on bread) and love cheese but the milk in our house is my partner's.

 

[rebrascora]

Weetabix with butter and marmalade.... Just treat it like a thick piece of toast... Yum! Those days are gone for me though! I probably wouldn't enjoy it now anyway. So many of the things I used to love are a bit of a disappointment now. I am not complaining though as I have plenty of new tasty things in my diet. Just wish I could alter my mindset to enjoy more fish.

 

[nonethewiser]

@Inka I used to prefer the taste of raw milk, but that was because it was all I knew up until I was about mid teens and when I tasted pasteurised it tasted weird and took some getting used to. I have to be honest I found less change in flavour between pasteurised and homogenised possibly because there was little time between the two. I will happily go back to raw and unhomogenised, it is just that I drink so little milk these days that it didn't seem worthwhile making the trip to the farm for it and they don't sell cream otherwise I would have been buying it from them. I actually go through more cream than milk in a week but I have always loved milk so maybe it needs to feature in my diet more and cut carbs elsewhere.

Portion it out & freeze, milk like lots of food freezes well & doesn't lose any goodness.

Always liked milk, straight from cow or otherwise doesn't matter, like it ice cold on warm day.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Ultra processed food seems to be the latest whipping boy.

Personally I’m not ready to dismiss the impact of (and huge growth in) ultra-processed and highly-refined foods as a proportion of pur shopping baskets.

I’ve not listened to the podcasts, but I found the TV documentary very interesting. And there does seem to be a growing body of research that suggests food which had been tested, formulated, focus-grouped and engineered to be more palatable, or to have a long shelf-life, or to ‘work around’ the limitations of cheaper ingredients, can be made to be more appealing, and to prompt increased consumption.

The TV documentary included brain scans which showed addiction-like changes in the brain after Xand had increased the proportion of UPF in his shopping basket.

So while I’m not going to avoid all of it entirely, I’m aiming for more of an average 1970s proportion, than a 2020s 😛

 

[Christy]

Anyone else listening to this podcast series?

A Thorough Examination with Drs Chris and Xand

Thank you to everyone who subscribed to Series 1 of the podcast. We were thrilled by all the fantastic feedback and the impact it had. We’re very excited to now reveal we have a new home over on BBC Sounds where you can find a new, follow up episode to 'Addicted to Food' and from where you’ll be...

pod.link

Whilst we all know ultra processed food isn’t good, I’m finding the podcast and all the extra detail and information with regard to the effect it has very interesting. Other issues around UPF covered here too with regard to genes, emotions and cravings. A slightly different issue covered each week...only around 30 mins and an easy listen.

Episode 5 of 6 out today, so guess I’ll put my ear pod things in and get out in garden. Fingers crossed that link works.

Hi @Lisa66 Just started to listen to this. It's really interesting, thanks for posting. I mostly cook from scratch but it's made me consider some of the ingredients such as ham, bacon, chorizo etc. I know it's all about balance but it's definitely making me more thoughtful. We've come a long way from cooking with real food sadly and junk food is too easily accessible imo.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Personally I’m not ready to dismiss the impact of (and huge growth in) ultra-processed and highly-refined foods as a proportion of pur shopping baskets.

I’ve not listened to the podcasts, but I found the TV documentary very interesting. And there does seem to be a growing body of research that suggests food which had been tested, formulated, focus-grouped and engineered to be more palatable, or to have a long shelf-life, or to ‘work around’ the limitations of cheaper ingredients, can be made to be more appealing, and to prompt increased consumption.

The TV documentary included brain scans which showed addiction-like changes in the brain after Xand had increased the proportion of UPF in his shopping basket.

So while I’m not going to avoid all of it entirely, I’m aiming for more of an average 1970s proportion, than a 2020s 😛

I can't really see the difference in McCain's oven chips being processed food, and McCain's Home chips being ultra processed.
Ready salted crisps are processed, flavoured crisps are ultra processed?
Would one really alter your brain and cause addictions, and the other is perfectly safe?
I believe it must be far more complicated than that.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

I can't really see the difference in McCain's oven chips being processed food, and McCain's Home chips being ultra processed.
Ready salted crisps are processed, flavoured crisps are ultra processed?
Would one really alter your brain and cause addictions, and the other is perfectly safe?
I believe it must be far more complicated than that.

Well yes… those don’t make a huge amount of sense to me either (though I can see that highly flavoured mega bags of doritos/sensations are pretty moreish, possibly more than ‘plain’?).

But tbh I’m not really tied up by those peculiar decisions. The definition I am more familiar with seemed more logical, and was more related to the amount of processing/engineering involved (though of course any hard dividing lines will always throw up examples that on either side that raise eyebrows).

So for me the spectrum would be more along the lines of

Fresh tomatoes > tinned tomatoes (minimally processed) > Dolmio (processed) > microwave spaghetti bolognaise ready meal (ultra processed)

And a greater proportion of your diet you have at the ultra processed end, tends on average to associate with poorer health outcomes, increased weight, and appetite/satiety disruption.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Well yes… those don’t make a huge amount of sense to me either (though I can see that highly flavoured mega bags of doritos/sensations are pretty moreish, possibly more than ‘plain’?).

But tbh I’m not really tied up by those peculiar decisions. The definition I am more familiar with seemed more logical, and was more related to the amount of processing/engineering involved (though of course any hard dividing lines will always throw up examples that on either side that raise eyebrows).

So for me the spectrum would be more along the lines of

Fresh tomatoes > tinned tomatoes (minimally processed) > Dolmio (processed) > microwave spaghetti bolognaise ready meal (ultra processed)

And a greater proportion of your diet you have at the ultra processed end, tends on average to associate with poorer health outcomes, increased weight, and appetite/satiety disruption.

I don't disagree with what you are saying.
But that isn't the definition of ultra processed food.
The one used on the show seems to be the same as the one quoted in the previous discussion on this subject.
Tinned tomatoes are processed, although acidity regulator is added.
Tesco chunky vegetable pasta sauce is ultra processed though.
Even my breakfast this morning was ultra processed by the rules.
Fresh sourdough bread, bought, cheese, fresh tomato, and a dash of Hellman's.
So the fresh bread and Hellman's did it.
Even if I made my own bread, it would still be an ultra processed snack.
And most flour has added vitamins now, so even that may not be sufficient.

So I'm wondering why it isn't "Junk food is bad" and why the rules have suddenly changed?

We've all seen the "all carbs are bad" posts, and how carbs have been demonised.
Is that now wrong, is it ultra processed foods instead, or will there be another diet of an unprocessed keto style springing up?

 

[Eddy Edson]

I don't disagree with what you are saying.
But that isn't the definition of ultra processed food.
The one used on the show seems to be the same as the one quoted in the previous discussion on this subject.
Tinned tomatoes are processed, although acidity regulator is added.
Tesco chunky vegetable pasta sauce is ultra processed though.
Even my breakfast this morning was ultra processed by the rules.
Fresh sourdough bread, bought, cheese, fresh tomato, and a dash of Hellman's.
So the fresh bread and Hellman's did it.
Even if I made my own bread, it would still be an ultra processed snack.
And most flour has added vitamins now, so even that may not be sufficient.

So I'm wondering why it isn't "Junk food is bad" and why the rules have suddenly changed?

We've all seen the "all carbs are bad" posts, and how carbs have been demonised.
Is that now wrong, is it ultra processed foods instead, or will there be another diet of an unprocessed keto style springing up?

The thing which makes me get all cynical about this is that nobody actually knows why "ultraprocessed" foods can cause excessive weight gain. Everybody has their just-so story but from my reading of the literature I get to this point:

- The hardest-edged data is from Kevin Hall's study and the only signal he could find was increased eating speed with an "ultraprocessed" diet.

- Brain changes in mice (and maybe humans) are real but studies haven't been powered to determine whether these changes are the result simply of over-eating, or some effect from diet quality, or something else.

- Given that we don't actually know what causes problems, it's quite possible that a bunch of "ultraprocessed" foods are actually just fine.

- Of course nutrition hucksters and grifters are all over "ultraprocessed". As always in nutrition, anybody claiming certainty about some speculative unproven mechanism is probably a grifter and a quack, like all the low carb quacks.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Yes I’m not sure how universally formalised these definitions are. The one I remember from the documentary was the rather sketchy, ‘contains ingredients not found in a normal kitchen’ which rather depends on your kitchen I think. When I was growing up, my mum’s always had things like xanthan gum and gum arabic from her cake decorating decorating days, but I suspect those are not very widespread in domestic settings.

By the documentary’s definition the vast majority of supermarket food is ultraprocessed (perhaps this is part of the current problem?)

I’m happy not to get caught up in the details and the idiosyncrasies of it - particularly because as @Eddy Edson suggests, the mechanics aren’t very well understood. And you are right about ‘junk food is bad’ - this message isn’t likely to change soon.

But I think it‘s interesting to reflect on the emerging information, and particularly to remain cautious about anything prepackaged and industrially produced, blended from dozens of ingredients, chemicals, additives, and labelled as ‘healthy’ on the pack front with green traffic light symbols.

Plus, I think your sandwich is likely to be fine, because this isn’t a binary issue, it’s a matter of proportion, and the way that more and more of the food consumed is increasingly engineered. If you can get good local bakery bread, or bake your own… go for it! But I don’t think a sandwich will sound an immediate tolling of the bell.

However if a scan of my cupboards shows me a growing number of ultraprocessed things, alongside the staples… it would be worth me having a think about that, in my opinion. 🙂