Podcast - ultra processed food

[Deleted member 21371]

Yes I’m not sure how universally formalised these definitions are. The one I remember from the documentary was the rather sketchy, ‘contains ingredients not found in a normal kitchen’ which rather depends on your kitchen I think. When I was growing up, my mum’s always had things like xanthan gum and gum arabic from her cake decorating decorating days, but I suspect those are not very widespread in domestic settings.

By the documentary’s definition the vast majority of supermarket food is ultraprocessed (perhaps this is part of the current problem?)

I’m happy not to get caught up in the details and the idiosyncrasies of it - particularly because as @Eddy Edson suggests, the mechanics aren’t very well understood. And you are right about ‘junk food is bad’ - this message isn’t likely to change soon.

But I think it‘s interesting to reflect on the emerging information, and particularly to remain cautious about anything prepackaged and industrially produced, blended from dozens of ingredients, chemicals, additives, and labelled as ‘healthy’ on the pack front with green traffic light symbols.

Plus, I think your sandwich is likely to be fine, because this isn’t a binary issue, it’s a matter of proportion, and the way that more and more of the food consumed is increasingly engineered. If you can get good local bakery bread, or bake your own… go for it! But I don’t think a sandwich will sound an immediate tolling of the bell.

However if a scan of my cupboards shows me a growing number of ultraprocessed things, alongside the staples… it would be worth me having a think about that, in my opinion. 🙂

I think we are better placed than most people, and also have good discussions, and interactions about nutrition this forum. We may not always agree, but that's good too.
My experiences growing up certainly was of ultra processed food.
Boil in the bag cod in butter sauce, crispy pancakes, oven chips, battered cod triangles, vesta ready meals.....
I learn to cook because they were so bad, not definitely not addictive to me.
But now I do have industrial ingredients in my cupboard as well.
But, I think if you don't know the in and outs of nutrition, it's not good to simply say ultra processed food is the next devil, especially as no one can actually define it it seems.
We've been there on many foods before, both here on this forum, and in the world outside.

 

[Inka]

The Groups are described here @travellor with a few examples:

https://world.openfoodfacts.org/nova

• Group 1 - Unprocessed or minimally processed foods
• Group 2 - Processed culinary ingredients
• Group 3 - Processed foods
• Group 4 - Ultra-processed food and drink products

Group 1. Unprocessed or minimally processed foods​

Unprocessed (or natural) foods are edible parts of plants (seeds, fruits, leaves, stems, roots) or of animals (muscle, offal, eggs, milk), and also fungi, algae and water, after separation from nature….

Group 2. Processed culinary ingredients​

Processed culinary ingredients, such as oils, butter, sugar and salt, are substances derived from Group 1 foods or from nature by processes that include pressing, refining, grinding, milling and drying….

Group 3. Processed foods​

Processed foods, such as bottled vegetables, canned fish, fruits in syrup, cheeses and freshly made breads, are made essentially by adding salt, oil, sugar or other substances from Group 2 to Group 1 foods…

**Group 4. Ultra-processed foods**​

Ultra-processed foods, such as soft drinks, sweet or savoury packaged snacks, reconstituted meat products and pre-prepared frozen dishes, are not modified foods but formulations made mostly or entirely from substances derived from foods and additives, with little if any intact Group 1 food.

Ingredients of these formulations usually include those also used in processed foods, such as sugars, oils, fats or salt. But ultra-processed products also include other sources of energy and nutrients not normally used in culinary preparations. Some of these are directly extracted from foods, such as casein, lactose, whey and gluten.

Many are derived from further processing of food constituents, such as hydrogenated or interesterified oils, hydrolysed proteins, soya protein isolate, maltodextrin, invert sugar and high-fructose corn syrup.

Additives in ultra-processed foods include some also used in processed foods, such as preservatives, antioxidants and stabilizers. Classes of additives found only in ultra-processed products include those used to imitate or enhance the sensory qualities of foods or to disguise unpalatable aspects of the final product. These additives include dyes and other colours, colour stabilizers; flavours, flavour enhancers, non-sugar sweeteners; and processing aids such as carbonating, firming, bulking and anti-bulking, de-foaming, anti-caking and glazing agents, emulsifiers, sequestrants and humectants…

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Those are very helpful descriptions @Inka, thank you!

Mmmmmmmm… I love freshly toasted humectants in the morning 😛

 

[Inka]

Yes, reading those descriptions is enough to put you off your TV dinner for sure I liked the bit about ‘disguising unpalatable aspects’😱

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Yes, reading those descriptions is enough to put you off your TV dinner for sure I liked the bit about ‘disguising unpalatable aspects’😱

Tumeric is a popular dye.
I have it in my cupboard.
Whey?
I make cheese.
I use the whey in bread.

 

[Eddy Edson]

Anyway, just because I think it's interesting ...

In the Kevin Hall study - the *only* RCT so far examining the health impacts of ultraprocessed food, AFAIK - the excess calorie consumption for the ultraprocessed vs unprocessed arms varied hugly by individual:



Just look at the x-axis: Some people in fact ate less on the ultraprocessed diet; for about 20%-25% of people, it was either a bit less or a smidgen more.

There is absolutely no scientific reason AFAIK to suppose that these people would be better off with an unprocessed vs ultraprocessed diet. In fact, the balance of evidence goes the other way: Hall points out that the unprocessed leg cost 40% more and required a lot more time to prepare.

Until more is known about mechanisms (versus the very very little actually known now, as distinct from the widespread firm belief in various unsupported just-so stories) there is no way of segmenting out individuals versus various types of "ultraprocessed" food, and no way of formulating really robust guidance or policies.

Kevin Hall with a typically lucid presentation: XXXhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_im2zAuBmME (Remove the "XXX" and paste the URL - when did Youtube embedding stop working here?)

 

[Bloden]

Thanks for posting the link @Lisa66. It looks right up my street. 🙂