Numbers looking good at last, but now what?

Fox

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Type 2
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I was diagnosed with type-2 diabetes back in April by accident, with an HbA1C figure of 11.5% (I think - this was a confusing time with a lot of numbers thrown around, typically without the units they were being expressed in, and getting data out of my GP's receptionist is challenging).

I was given a ten-minute appointment with a diabetes nurse, who gave me some very basic advice on diet (portion control), leaflets on looking after my feet, and so on. Many assumptions were made, such as that I was on a "typical Scottish diet of mince and tatties" (I have never eaten mince and tatties in my life, nor would I!), and that I should perhaps eat fewer tatties. I was told (in words of one syllable) that red meat is the only source of dietary iron (which I knew to be wrong), NOT to test my own blood sugar (which I now consider to have been bad advice) and left to my own devices.

I crash educated myself on type-2 diabetes, going back to the primary literature when I needed to.

Mistakes were made. In particular, "eat lots of wholegrains" very quickly becomes a quantity of wholegrains that will cause a vicious glucose spike. The protein shakes I was drinking in order to buffer the carbohydrates in a meal contained enough carbs in themselves to do likewise. Eating even low-GI fruit can become "too much" very, very quickly. If I had ignored the diabetes nurse this would have been clear much, much earlier.

Otherwise, I threw the kitchen sink at the problem. Walks. The rowing machine I bought at the height of the pandemic was repurposed from the clothes horse it had inevitably become when it was relatively safe to get out again. Strength training. Berberine. Cinnamon. I cut out most of the ultra-processed food, all the refined sugar, alcohol, fruit juice, potatoes (oh, potatoes!).

My BMI has dropped from 25.7 to 21.9. My waist to height ratio has gone from 0.55 to 0.51. I have a body roundness index figure of 0.35. My friends say I "look skinny".

By early August, my HbA1C was down to 8.4%. Not good enough. I took the better advice of people living with diabetes and started glucose testing, initially with a finger-prick device and very shortly thereafter with a CGM.

That tells me my current A1C estimate, based on 27 days of data, is 6.2%. For the past 14 days, I have spent 99% of the time with my glucose levels between 3.9mmol/L and 10mmol/L (for the past 10 days it's been 100%). My average daily glucose for the past fortnight has been 6.7mmol/L, with a variability coefficient of 16.6%. I ran the numbers through a linear regression calculator, which tells me my daily glucose average is dropping by just short of 0.5mmol/L a week.

Some of that is clearly about learning what foods cause a problem. To what degree it's an actual improvement in insulin response remains unknown, in part because I'm nervous about eating a large sandwich and finding out.

That having been said, I'm winning. The glucose figures are such that, if I can sustain them without the drugs (I'm on Empagliflozin as well), that puts me into the remission category.

Achievement.

BUT:

I can safely lose about another 3 or 4 kilos before I run the risk of a high fever dropping me into a position where I would be dangerously underweight. At present rates of weight loss (I have been fairly steadily losing about half a kilo a week since April), that would be in late October or early November, which is now looming in a way it wasn't back when I started. Everything I know of that will maintain safe glucose levels is going to incidentally cause me to lose weight.

On the other hand, at present rates my average daily glucose should be into the nondiabetic (not prediabetic, *non*diabetic) range perhaps a little bit before that.

So, I have some related questions I was hoping someone could answer, please:

Does anyone have any experience of maintaining remission without losing weight? What worked for you?

and

What actually happens to your insulin response when you are in remission? Do you reach a point where you can eat a banana without your glucose levels heading for 11 or 12 mmol/L (which is what happened last time I tried it), or is it simply the fact that remission or not, I am still going to be diabetic and too much carbohydrate is going to cause a nasty sugar spike? Is remission really just good ongoing glucose control? Is the way that I know I'm in remission the (currently hypothetical) fact that those spikes don't happen? Would I be able to go to my local café and eat a slice of chocolate cake and see my glucose go up to 7.8mmol/L and come straight back down?

Thank you.
 
Does anyone have any experience of maintaining remission without losing weight? What worked for you?
I've been in remission for almost 5 years and have actually regained a little weight during that period. Although I'm still maintaining a <130g a day carb diet (sometimes over, sometimes under) I make sure I'm getting to the recommended 2000 calories a day, too. Nuts are one of my main sources - low carb, high calorie, mostly fat but it's the unsaturated 'good' fat.

In clinical terms remission means no signs and no symptoms, and is currently defined as 3 months with an HbA1c below 48 whilst taking no meds. I still avoid big hitters like bananas, rice and pasta but I'll have a dessert or chips on those occasions when we eat out, a piece of cake if we pop into a coffee shop while shopping, or one of my wife's homemade brownies. I don't worry about the occasional spike as everyone gets spikes, even non-diabetics. The issue is how quickly it comes back down again. I still test on waking and post-meal and my numbers continue to keep within range.

Remission doesn't mean cured so we're still considered to be diabetic, which is why we continue to get appointments for eye screening, foot checks etc
 
My experience and from reading a lot of others comments over the last 6 yrs on various sites and groups.

Weight maintenance is achieved by increasing fats and proteins but not carbs.

Response to a heavy carb hit varies. Some have a better response than earlier in their journey for a one off. A few even get close to normal for a reasonable amount. It all seems to depend on how much of your initial issue was weight/fatty organs and how much was hormone or genetics driven for example, all,of us get lumped into type 2 but our situations vary. Test and see is the only sure answer. The biggest trap to avoid is an occasional treat becoming a regular thing and old habits creeping back in.

Officially yes you will always be diabetic - so yes remission is no outward signs of the condition achieved without medication. Same as cancer remission for example and other conditions. Perhaps this might change in the future as the fact it’s not automatically progressive is accepted more widely. Remission is not a guarantee that it’s all gone forever. Potentially there are still mechanisms linked to glucose control still impaired eg first stage response, beta cell numbers, hormone responses. So yes imo it’s the equivalent of well controlled (and quick to bite you on the bottom if you lapse too much too long). Cure would mean no reaction or impairment outside of normal without specific measures, and ongoing. The issue here is what is normal?
 
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Good question.
Well yes. This is part of what I'm trying to figure out. Clearly there is a range for "normal". To some degree I can understand what that range is. There are clearly defined criteria for diagnosing diabetes, and if I meet the criteria for not being diabetic, I'm in remission. But what's a "normal" blood sugar spike if one eats a big plate of pasta? I have the impression that even type-2 diabetes is sufficiently heterogenous that what that might do in the long term if done too often will vary, but I can see that the test-and-see approach makes sense, but I'm trying to figure out what it is I'm looking for.
 
Well yes. This is part of what I'm trying to figure out. Clearly there is a range for "normal". To some degree I can understand what that range is. There are clearly defined criteria for diagnosing diabetes, and if I meet the criteria for not being diabetic, I'm in remission. But what's a "normal" blood sugar spike if one eats a big plate of pasta? I have the impression that even type-2 diabetes is sufficiently heterogenous that what that might do in the long term if done too often will vary, but I can see that the test-and-see approach makes sense, but I'm trying to figure out what it is I'm looking for.
I look at it from the point of view that low carb is my new normal way of eating I wouldn't consider eating 'a big plate of pasta', it is almost like suggesting a veggie would eat a steak.
 
Well yes. This is part of what I'm trying to figure out. Clearly there is a range for "normal". To some degree I can understand what that range is. There are clearly defined criteria for diagnosing diabetes, and if I meet the criteria for not being diabetic, I'm in remission. But what's a "normal" blood sugar spike if one eats a big plate of pasta? I have the impression that even type-2 diabetes is sufficiently heterogenous that what that might do in the long term if done too often will vary, but I can see that the test-and-see approach makes sense, but I'm trying to figure out what it is I'm looking for.
I actually meant what is “normal” eating rather than normal glucose ranges. It varies enormously. Perhaps a better phrase would be to eat nutritiously.
 
I actually meant what is “normal” eating rather than normal glucose ranges. It varies enormously. Perhaps a better phrase would be to eat nutritiously.
I don’t know whether my own experience assists your original question or not. I was diagnosed with A1c of 74 nearly four years ago and quickly reduced it to 42 by the standard route of substantial weight loss (16kg). I’ve kept it between 38 and 42 ever since by the obvious expedient of keeping the new weight constant on about 1800 cals a day and 3 miles walking each day. I have tested the effects of varying carbs intake and ascertained that (for me) this is of no significance, which I put down to having fully restored insulin response. I think the latter should be seen as the criterion for remission, not merely suppressing A1c below 48 by becoming a low-carb captive. Normalising the metabolism is the ideal, but will depend on how compromised the pancreas has become while one was ‘diabetic’.
 
Well done on your great progress @Fox

I’m not sure there are going to be any simple answers to your ‘banana’ question.

We have a variety of experiences on the forum which are quite different when it comes to tolerance for carbohydrates once levels have improved into the ‘remission’ area.

Some seem to be able to clear visceral fat around pancreas and liver, and sort of ‘reboot’ their metabolism.

While others, even after years of remission-style levels, still seem to find certain carbohydrates as ‘spiky’ as ever.

I guess you’ll just have to cautiously experiment, and see?
 
I don’t know whether my own experience assists your original question or not. I was diagnosed with A1c of 74 nearly four years ago and quickly reduced it to 42 by the standard route of substantial weight loss (16kg). I’ve kept it between 38 and 42 ever since by the obvious expedient of keeping the new weight constant on about 1800 cals a day and 3 miles walking each day. I have tested the effects of varying carbs intake and ascertained that (for me) this is of no significance, which I put down to having fully restored insulin response. I think the latter should be seen as the criterion for remission, not merely suppressing A1c below 48 by becoming a low-carb captive. Normalising the metabolism is the ideal, but will depend on how compromised the pancreas has become while one was ‘diabetic’.
Thank you. Yes, this does help. At the moment I think I simply have my glucose levels suppressed. It's helpful to know that at least in some cases it is possible to go beyond suppression and into normal insulin response. I think what I'm going to do is exercise off those last few centimetres of visceral fat, and cautiously test. I don't want to remain in the low-carb trap if I can help it (I miss potatoes, for a start, and would like to have a nice scone occasionally!).

I think I have a better picture of what I'm looking for now, so thanks everyone!
 
Thank you. Yes, this does help. At the moment I think I simply have my glucose levels suppressed. It's helpful to know that at least in some cases it is possible to go beyond suppression and into normal insulin response. I think what I'm going to do is exercise off those last few centimetres of visceral fat, and cautiously test. I don't want to remain in the low-carb trap if I can help it (I miss potatoes, for a start, and would like to have a nice scone occasionally!).

I think I have a better picture of what I'm looking for now, so thanks everyone!
Those things are fine for many people once in a while, it is when they creep back into being everyday. If for example I have the odd potato I don't have any other carby veg in the same meal and would have salad or green bens, cabbage, courgette, broccoli, cauliflower instead.
The scone with cream and jam would be lunch not an addition to other stuff.
I don't feel my low carb way is a trap just my new normal way on eating.
 
Those things are fine for many people once in a while, it is when they creep back into being everyday. If for example I have the odd potato I don't have any other carby veg in the same meal and would have salad or green bens, cabbage, courgette, broccoli, cauliflower instead.
The scone with cream and jam would be lunch not an addition to other stuff.
I don't feel my low carb way is a trap just my new normal way on eating.
Have you achieved remission?
 
From 50mmol/mol to 42 in 3 months and to 36 in another 6months, hovering around 38mmol/mol for 3 years. No Meds. That is despite reduced exercise due to a knee injury which the after effects still linger so walking any distance at pace is difficult.
Great achievement! So why are you being so cautious around carbs?
 
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I also eat carbs in moderation (below 160g) purely from dietary preference. But if my position were to be in remission but compelled to eat low carbs to keep it that way then I’d suspect that my beta cells were struggling and might one day give up the ghost and cause the hba1c to rise. This is why I firmly believe that the newly diagnosed should first and foremost have the top priority of substantial weight loss brought to their immediate attention. Going low carb is likely to assist that but it is a second-order consideration in my view and is not addressing the root of the matter.
 
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This is all really helpful, folks. Thank you.

Okay. I have a plan.

I have lost just over ten kilos in the past 5 months, and can safely lose about another 4, so I am well on the way to that, and I know it's possible. My original goal was the midpoint of what the WHO says is the ideal weight for my height +/-5%: it's currently that + about 0.3%; I should hit, at present rates, that -5% (another 3 kilos) in about 6 weeks. Losing another 4 kilos would bring me down to about the same BMI as that of @childofthesea43. At present rates I should hit that around mid-November.

I have also learned (from another source) that a nondiabetic postprandial response is for glucose to spike to anything up to 8.5-9mmol/L and then return to normal levels (around 4 or 5mmol/L) within 30-45 minutes. I am definitely not there(1), but I can see a glucose response pattern to look for. I will test once I lose those 4 additional kilos, while continuing to suppress my existing glucose response, which should make me lean, but not dangerously underweight, and then cautiously increase my energy intake again to the 1800kcal/day mentioned by @childofthesea43.

I have further learned (from yet another source) that the plants Ocimum sanctum (aka holy basil) and a herb used in ayurvedic medicine (Gymnema sylvestre, aka "gurmar" (lit. "sugar destroyer", although I suspect more because it suppresses the sense of sweetness), in Hindi and Urdu) show promise in restoring islet cell function, so I am going to lay my hands on those, and hope.

(1) Over the past fortnight the CGM says I have spent 3% of the time above 8.5mmol/L, which I don't think is unreasonable, especially given where I started, which was an average of nearly double that, but the spikes are quite prolonged. It looks prediabetic, I think, rather than normal or fully diabetic, but a large factor is active glucose control.
 
On the matter of BMI, which is of course a crude metric, Prof Lean of the Direct trial told me that when the BMI approaches 21 one has a body in which it is nearly impossible for type 2 diabetes to be manifested, although there are a few exceptions.
 
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And another point from Direct, which I’m sure you’ll have already picked up, is that remission outcomes are much better at a weight loss of 15kg than at 10kg, irrespective of starting weight, so yes, do clear away those last few kg.
 
On the matter of BMI, which is of course a crude metric, Prof Lean of the Direct trial told me that when the BMI approaches 21 one has a body in which it is nearly impossible for type 2 diabetes to be manifested, although there are a few exceptions.
Yes, I have many issues with BMI as a metric, which is why I'm keeping an eye on some others. My waist to height ratio is 0.51 (from 0.55) and my body roundness index is 0.35 (no baseline, because I only learned about it quite recently). My BMI is 21.8 (rounding error from the midpoint of what the WHO says is ideal), down from 25.7, and falling.

This is reassuring to know. The end of the really hard work may be in sight!

Yep, the days of those last few kilos are numbered!
 
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