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Newcastle Diet - Lets Go!!!

beating_my_betes said:
Optimum for whom and for when?


Only the RMR link seems to work. But they seem to have fallen for the same nonsense of banning the foods that make the 'Red' list. There's not a thing on that list that is inherently problematic for diabetics or those who are looking to lose weight. I'd argue that it's such arbitrary judments increase the chances of failure on any diet. More over, any list that seeks to provide portion control should easily be able to accommodate them.
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RMR is Tim Noakes ...
 
JITR said:
As the learned judge said, it always pays to spell out the obvious.

Some things are better left unsaid. There may be good reasons for adopting a lower calorie diet for few weeks before switching to a sustainable way of eating for the long term.


I did. The science page says this:
In 2014, some research was undertaken, (the DIRECT study), which showed that people who followed a rapid weight loss regime based on this low carbohydrate/high fat way of eating not only lost weight fast, but in doing so, cleared fat out of their pancreas and livers and were able to actually put their type 2 Diabetes into remission. A number of the study participants were able to stop their diabetes and blood pressure medication as a result of their weight loss and healthier lifestyle and the majority of them managed to keep the weight off longer term as well.

That statement is problematic.

The DiRECT study [managed programme]
This was a follow up to the Counterpoint study, c.2008, by Prof Roy Taylor and his team at Newcastle University. The Counterpoint study showed many overweight people could put their T2D into remission by losing around 15 kg or more following a very low calorie diet [not a low carbohydrate/high fat way of eating] . The aim of DiRECT was to demonstrate that shakes like those used in the Counterpoint clinical trial would work in a managed programme delivered through primary care. This led to the current NHS Pathway to Remission which aims to treat 20,000 people a year. The latest results show 50% of those losing 15-20 kg achieve remission, and 55% of those losing more than 22 kg. I do not know what guidance on maintaining weight loss is provided.

The CounterPoint study [clinical trial]
Vounteers were required to stop medication on day 1 of the trial, to avoid hypos.

Key findings of the clinical trial included:
- Some volunteers were 'responders', typically the recently dagnosed; 'non-responders' tended to have been diagnosed several years ago.
- Blood glucose levels came down to normal levels in 7 days (responders)
- Excess liver fat reduced by about 30% per week (i.e. week zero, baseline, =>100%; week 1, 70%; week 2, 50%; week 3, 35%; week 4. 25%)
- Liver insulin resistance was much reduced after one week.
- After three months beta cells in the pancreas were waking up and starting to produce insulin again.
- Most responders achieved remission (<= 42 mmol/mol)

The CounterPoint study [self managed weight loss]
When the CounterPoint results were published, the Newcastle team received over a thousand emails from people who wanted to put their T2D into remission. Prof Taylor recommended a 'portion controlled diet' not the shakes [and not a low calorie high fat diet]. Subsequently 77 people reported back on their success in sufficient detail to be included as subject in a published paper.

[The CounterPoint study, rather than DiRECT is relevant to Freshwell's target group, people who want to manage their T2D and pre-D for themselves.]

Optimum weight loss and maintenance strategies
After Counterpoint Prof Taylor called for research into optimum weight loss and maintenance strategies. It may well be low calorie/high fat strategies, possibly coupled with some form of Time Restricted Eating, are one such group. To my knowledge there has been no such research to date. However the latest dietary European and American advice for diabetics are probably good enough for distilling into media we can all understand.

[Have Freshwell collated any evidence to show their low carb/high fat approach is optimum in any sense?]

DiRECT [weight maintenance]
Recently published results show only 25% or so of participants [not the majority] maintained their lower weight/state of remission after 5 years. Prof Taylor has reported a failure in primary care support as envisaged at the outset.

Self managed remission and weight maintenance
Self managed loss of 15kg plus 7 kg is hardly an experience I will ever forget.

[Nor do I intend to end up where 'I started or worse'. Time will tell as it will for all of us who have got their numbers back to normal or near normal]
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Thanks @JITR I'm a huge fan of Prof Roy Taylor and read his book when I was first diagnosed with T2D. I read some studies on time restricted eating and they concluded there wasn't any evidence it made any difference. Calories in was the determining factor, not the timing. However, setting myself a 'no snacks after dinner' rule is a good way of managing calorie intake.
 
pjgtech said:
You can get the total diet replacement meals from a few companies, including Shake that Weight and Altra Life.
The TDR meals all have around 200cals and all contain about 20 nutrients and vitamins.
The supermarket ones are not "proper" TDR meals, so can contains all sorts?
As above, drink lots of water too.
Cheers
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I went with Shake that Weight in the end. I think this is Exante rebranded. It is one of the NHS recommended meal replacements, which was the deciding factor for me.
However I've added in 'real food': e.g. salads with small amounts of lean meat, guacamole and grains or brown rice.
Having had problems with constipation last time I did 12 weeks on soups and shakes, I've been blending spinach, celery etc and psyllium husk in with the soups in a nutri bullet, and drinking water with fibrous greens psyllium husk.
So far so good
 
CurlyWurly said:
I actually read your whole thread when looking into the Newcastle diet. At least you've kept some of the weight off and know the cause. Maybe as another poster said do it for 4 weeks then get your regular diet back in shape - I'm guessing you get 60-70% of the weight loss in the first few weeks.

I got my shakes from Keediet but they're mixed with skimmed milk. You can mix them with water but then they're usually around 125 calories each instead of 200. The carb content seems a bit high with them at around 23/24 grams and they also have about the same amount of sugar. The book says not too worry about the sugar content but I think you might get more benefit having an omlette or something instead of 1 of the shakes a day. Tesco also do them (called Tesco slim) but they only have vanilla and chocolate.
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Hi @CurlyWurly I'm glad my thread was worth a read. It was @ColinUK 's thread that helped me commit to the Newcastle diet. I prefer soups and savoury to the shakes , perhaps they have less sugar, and I don't like sweeteners much
 
I'm pretty chuffed
The first three days, as expected were tough - feeling hungry.
The hunger went by day 4. I tested my ketone levels and I was in mild ketosis.
As per the Counterpoint study [clinical trial], my fasting bloods went from From 7.3 to 4.9 in 8 days having lost 4.1kg. 92.2kg to 88.10
I'm going to stick on it for another week or so. My BMI will be 25 once I get to 87kg.
Bearing in mind that 2-4kg of the weight loss is water loss due to depleted glycogen (each gram of glycogen stored in your body is bound to 3 or 4 grams of water).
I probably need to hit 84-85kg to stay at 87 kg once I stop calorie deficit and replenish my glycogen store.
BTW I tried going for a 5k jog whilst fasting. I read a study saying you can run whilst fasting using your body fat for fuel - gluconeogenesis.
I was totally exhausted after 3k, which made the return leg (in the cold and rain) very unpleasant.
I'll stick with walking
 
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Weekender said:
I'm pretty chuffed
The first three days, as exepcted were tough - feeling hungry.
The hunger went by day 4. I tested my ketone levels and I was in mild ketosis.
As per the CounterPoint study [clinical trial], my fasting bloods went from From 7.3 to 4.9 in 8 days having lost 4.1kg. 92.2kg to 88.10
I'm going to stick on it for another week or so. My BMI will be 25 once I get to 87kg.
Bearing in mind that 2-4kg of the weight loss is water loss due to depleted glycogen (each gram of glycogen stored in your body is bound to 3 or 4 grams of water).
I probably need to hit 84-85kg to stay at 87 kg once I stop calorie deficit and replenish my glycogen store.
BTW I tried going for a 5k jog whilst fasting. I read a study saying you can run whilst fasting using your body fat for fuel (glycolysis).
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I found when I lost weight initially (Very low carb) and the added more carbs back to my diet I put on a small amount of weight.

Glycolysis is the name for the pathway where glucose in blood is used to generate energy in cells.

Using fat/amino acids to generate glucose (Which happens during fasting) is gluconeogenesis.
 
JITR said:
Thank you for those points. Answers in bold,
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Ok. But from what you wrote it seemed like he was just looking for what constitutes optimum weightloss and maintenance in general. Either way, that still doesn't change the fact that there is no much optimal/optimum...even for diabetics. I'ts just a question of matching the right person to the right plan.

Now you've replaced the links I'm still not really seeing how they're offering advice on portion control (Seems only 'orange' foods, on one of the lists). Of course, they're also all fundamentally wrong 😉
 
CurlyWurly said:
Week 3 Update
  • Lost 5.8lbs
  • Total weight lost is 14lbs
  • BMI down to 23.7
  • Average fasting level (I measure once a day as soon as I'm up) - 5.4. I had a 5.9 and a 6 which skewed it slightly, others were low 5's and a couple of high 4's
Mixed week with Christmas and other social events going on. Skipped the morning shake twice for a Christmas dinner but just had meat and veg and a small amount of potatoes but no gravy or sides. Tried to get out for more walks but had a couple of days where I didn't leave the house. Also ended up having one meal at Zizzi, chicken salad with parma ham which is 400 calories, was pretty nice and skipped the evening shake to compensate.

Pretty happy with the weight loss, I think some of this weeks loss was actually in week 2 but I was pretty constipated then. Went 5 days without going this week so took some tablets which have helped. Hoping to lose another 10-15lbs over the next few weeks.

Shakes are definitely getting boring, bought some Warburtons Danish bread which is 12grams of carbs per slice and had 2 toast and smoked salmon for breakfast. Carb amounts are the same as the shakes but far less sugar like this. Will probably start to add in a bit more toast, eggs, yoghurt type breakfasts to stave off the shake boredom. Long term I'll likely have to give up break but figure if the carbs are the same as the shake it's not doing much harm. Overall I'm having 75-85 grams of carbs a day and fasting levels are decent for 3 weeks in.

Also had the results of my fasting blood test which was 5.4, still waiting on the c peptide one.
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Thanks for your updates @CurlyWurly

@JITR @beating_my_betes please can you start a separate thread to continue your more general discussions around diet theory so that this thread can stay on track.
 
harbottle said:
I found when I lost weight initially (Very low carb) and the added more carbs back to my diet I put on a small amount of weight.

Glycolysis is the name for the pathway where glucose in blood is used to generate energy in cells.

Using fat/amino acids to generate glucose (Which happens during fasting) is gluconeogenesis.
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Many thanks @harbottle. Makes sense if you think about the latin: "sugar-new-creation". What a fascinating subject, I read the Wiki page. The chemistry in metabolic pathways is mind blowing - gluconeogenesis is the original metabolic pathway at the beginning of evolution and our Krebs cycles is it spinning backwards. Amazing to think how life started from mineral chemical reactions in hydrothermal vents
 
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CurlyWurly said:
Looks like Chinese is off the menu, had a small plate of 1 spring roll, 2 chicken balls (with half the batter removed), 2 prawn crackers and couple of spoons of chow mein and rice. Didn't measure before but 2 hours later was 8.8. Then went for a 20 minute walk and after 3 hours I'd gone back to 3.9 (did 3 strips using same fingerprick as it seemed a bit low but they were all 3.8 or 3.9). Then after nearly 4 hours it had gone back to 4.9. Bizarrely this morning it was 5.7 (though I did have to get up at 5 to sort the kids) and just now without eating anything yet is 5.2.
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Morning @CurlyWurly the reason your bloods went up in to 5.7 in the morning is due to what's called the 'dawn phenomenon'. "In the early morning — between approximately 3 a.m. and 8 a.m. — your body releases a surge of hormones, including cortisol and growth hormone. These hormones signal your liver to boost its production of glucose, which provides energy that helps you wake up. This boost of glucose increases your blood sugar (glucose)" I like to think if it of evolution's way of helping us forage for breakfast 🙂. It wears off - hence your 5.2 later
 
Week 4 Update
  • Lost 3.9lbs
  • Total weight lost is 17.9lbs
  • BMI down to 23.1
  • Average fasting level - 4.9 (all but 2 days were in the 4s)
All going pretty well, just about stuck to the calories but was off work and out and about so some days I had one smaller meal at lunch and some veg only. Had a small chinese takeaway on new years and a big slice of chocolate cake one evening for my childs birthday. Was about 450 cals and 55 grams of carbs. After 30 minutes I was at 9, at 1 hour 8.3 and at 2 hours 10.2 and 3 hours 7.5. The next day I was at 4.6 when I woke up so I think cake can be crossed off the list. Also had a slice last night to round off the holidays and 4 weeks, went for a half hour walk just after eating it and after 2 hours I was at 7.5 but this morning I was at 5.5. Could be the dawn phenomenon @Weekender mentioned as I was awake for around an hour doing things before I did a test but will need to look into it more or could just be the cake not worn off.

Had toast the last 2 days, 2 slices of Danish warburtons with 2 slices of ham are 200 cals and I'll try and get some eggs in as well to mix it up for breakfast as and when needed.

Nice to be back working and can hopefully get back into a more regular routine of 3 shakes a day and veg for the next few weeks but overall very happy with progress. Will expect the weight loss to slow down in the second half but be great if I can get to under 150.
 
Keep up the good work and congrats on the progress so far.
I've just tried in the last few days (for the first time) egg bites/muffins and overnight oats, (just google them) and I can recommend both as good meal choices. Keep us updated with your progress.
Cheers
 
CurlyWurly said:
I actually read your whole thread when looking into the Newcastle diet. At least you've kept some of the weight off and know the cause. Maybe as another poster said do it for 4 weeks then get your regular diet back in shape - I'm guessing you get 60-70% of the weight loss in the first few weeks.

I got my shakes from Keediet but they're mixed with skimmed milk. You can mix them with water but then they're usually around 125 calories each instead of 200. The carb content seems a bit high with them at around 23/24 grams and they also have about the same amount of sugar. The book says not too worry about the sugar content but I think you might get more benefit having an omlette or something instead of 1 of the shakes a day. Tesco also do them (called Tesco slim) but they only have vanilla and chocolate.
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I used the Tesco shakes and they had strawberry flavour too - I doubled up on the vanilla ones and added instant coffee to half of them so I had 4 options.
If I tried the low calorie diet again I think I might try eating real food in the mornings, and maybe using water to make up the shakes, but I really had to go to extremes to get a result when I tried it out before my annual blood test last year.
 
Drummer said:
I used the Tesco shakes and they had strawberry flavour too - I doubled up on the vanilla ones and added instant coffee to half of them so I had 4 options.
If I tried the low calorie diet again I think I might try eating real food in the mornings, and maybe using water to make up the shakes, but I really had to go to extremes to get a result when I tried it out before my annual blood test last year.
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@Drummer

Having read your posts about your low calorie experiment, and going down to one meal a day, I wonder if the shakes were really necessary at all. Why not another real food dish instead? Just curious.

Eating real food in the mornings is well worth trying if it fits in with your day. One Harvard study showed the same meal resulted in 17% higher glucose levels in the evening.

I'd do it myself were it not for our daily supper together.
 
JITR said:
@Drummer

Having read your posts about your low calorie experiment, and going down to one meal a day, I wonder if the shakes were really necessary at all. Why not another real food dish instead? Just curious.

Eating real food in the mornings is well worth trying if it fits in with your day. One Harvard study showed the same meal resulted in 17% higher glucose levels in the evening.

I'd do it myself were it not for our daily supper together.
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My normal routine is two meals a day, at around 12 hourly intervals, but I was finding that I often neglected to eat in the mornings. Previous testing had shown me that I should eat fewer carbs in the mornings, so I assumed that I could continue skewing my intake of carbs towards the evening.
With my annual test coming up I got the Tesco shakes, and thought that I'd start off with three a day, but I soon did not feel right. Thinking back I was probably spiking my levels three times a day, but as I was not hungry I stopped the morning shake and had a coffee, then I decided to try one shake, at around 5pm, and then make myself a small meal, meat or fish and some salad stuff or stirfry.
I definitely lost weight, but not a great amount, off my lower back rather than the 'bay window' on the front of my waist. When I got the test results my HbA1c was 48 rather than being in the low 40s.
I have found it really difficult to return to eating twice a day, and often eat only once, and actually feel better without the shake - I think that the carbs in the milk and however they are presented in the shakes really do not suit me, being too easily absorbed.
 
CurlyWurly said:
Week 4 Update
  • Lost 3.9lbs
  • Total weight lost is 17.9lbs
  • BMI down to 23.1
  • Average fasting level - 4.9 (all but 2 days were in the 4s)
All going pretty well, just about stuck to the calories but was off work and out and about so some days I had one smaller meal at lunch and some veg only. Had a small chinese takeaway on new years and a big slice of chocolate cake one evening for my childs birthday. Was about 450 cals and 55 grams of carbs. After 30 minutes I was at 9, at 1 hour 8.3 and at 2 hours 10.2 and 3 hours 7.5. The next day I was at 4.6 when I woke up so I think cake can be crossed off the list. Also had a slice last night to round off the holidays and 4 weeks, went for a half hour walk just after eating it and after 2 hours I was at 7.5 but this morning I was at 5.5. Could be the dawn phenomenon @Weekender mentioned as I was awake for around an hour doing things before I did a test but will need to look into it more or could just be the cake not worn off.

Had toast the last 2 days, 2 slices of Danish warburtons with 2 slices of ham are 200 cals and I'll try and get some eggs in as well to mix it up for breakfast as and when needed.

Nice to be back working and can hopefully get back into a more regular routine of 3 shakes a day and veg for the next few weeks but overall very happy with progress. Will expect the weight loss to slow down in the second half but be great if I can get to under 150.
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@CurlyWurly These are great results. Anyone attempting the VLCD whilst working and parenting has my respect. I'm semi retired and my VLCDs have been whilst I'm between contracts. I would find it hard to cope with 'real life' with the inevitable VLCD brain fog and lethargy. Stick with it. You may find you plateau and find weight loss slows after several weeks, but I think it's important to stay the course to remove fat from the liver and pancreas.
 

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