My (rubbish) T2 Diagnosis

@saz9961 I had a high blood glucose result in July having requested a test having discovered last tested ten years ago. This site has been so helpful. My DN appointment was not helpful though that may partly be I was still overwhelmed by everything. My second test was 64. I was started on metformin one 500 gm at breakfast then a week later one in evening until week 4 it was four. I discovered from this site it is to allow for side effects. First two weeks I was bunged up but by week 4 I had had the runs. I am on slow release which is kinder they say. I was already on medication for high blood pressure. The following week they added a SGLT2 and removed the diuretic I took for blood pressure. The metformin was reduced to two tablets. I am still getting diarrhoea once a week but never had watery diarrhea My reading is down to 51 so right direction. A statin was added last week but I have no more appointments or tests booked.

I am due a cataract op at the end of the month with a two week oral steroid course. Not sure how badly that will effect my blood glucose.

Good luck with your journey. Your scientific knowledge will help you ask the right questions.
 
Hi @saz9961 and welcome. Some resources that might be of use:

Studies comparing the accuracy of various blood glucose meters - Link Link and Link. The best meters available at present which have appeared in independent studies are 1: Contour Next One. 2: Contour Next. 3: A high-end Accu-Check meter. The Accu-Chek Guide is the model that appears in the most recent of those three studies, second to the Next One in terms of accuracy and low bias. I wasn't able to buy one here in Ireland though I found it, along with the test strips, on a German medical supply site - Link. The better meters have more expensive test strips. On that site you'll notice that the strips for Accu-Chek Instant meter are very much cheaper than the ones for the Guide. In the early days when you're going through a lot of strips testing before and after meals the cheap meters are probably good enough for most purposes and will save you some money.

Summary of the latest science I subscribe to on the cause of Type 2 - Link. Available to read for free last time I checked but requires registering an account on The Lancet website. The author Prof Roy Taylor appears in this long video interview in which he explains his theories in simple terms - Link. Most of what he says is very well proven. I agree with you completely on the issue of suspect YouTube videos though this is a rare exception. Taylor does simplify the science somewhat in that interview but I believe he's right in the great majority of cases. Related papers and articles - Link Link Link and Link. The last one is behind The Lancet paywall but the summary of findings is informative. Taylor's book 'Life Without Diabetes' is good though there's nothing in that book which isn't in the interview and documents linked above except details about the weight loss programme that enabled his research. A summary of that programme, the Newcastle Diet, is available here - Link.

If a lipid panel (blood test for cholesterol) was done around the time you were diagnosed, and if you have access to the results, have a look at the triglyceride result. If it's elevated you fit Taylor's profile of the typical Type 2 at time of diagnosis. If you have a BMI over 25 maybe consider losing weight and bringing that number down. The higher your triglyceride result the more urgent it might be to lose weight. It's not actually about BMI but that's a reasonable indicator of whether you can afford to lose weight and if it might be a good idea for you. Lower carb intake is a very good idea but the long-term magic is in the weight loss that low-carb diets usually bring about.

Three papers on the effects of exercise in diabetics - Link Link and Link. Lastly, a paper about how low skeletal muscle mass is a risk factor for non alcoholic fatty liver disease - Link. As Taylor asserts that a fatty liver is the root cause of Type 2 this is perhaps relevant.

Best of luck.
 
Contrary to what the diabetic nurse said, now the practice is refusing to give me any more strips and lancets, on the basis that I am not on enough medications. I understand the reasoning; the NHS view is that blood glucose monitoring is really for people at risk of hypoglycemia.

They're not getting the reader back. I'll say I splashed blood on it if they do. Using a calibration solution, its good enough in terms of reproducibility. The supplier offers VAT free refills, but an outrageous delivery charge. The same consumables, with free delivery, are available, with VAT, on Amazon, for less tha the delivered VAT-free cost.

While HbAC1 can be regarded as a 3 month rolling average of blood glucose, I know its is not a simple and acuurate relationship between mmol/mol and mmol/L. Nevertheless, I think some sort of regular monitoring would be helpful to me.

Severe lack of info what I'm supposed to do with my BP log. I've mentioned that I've never been able to reproduce the single measure that the GP made that has put me on medication
 
Contrary to what the diabetic nurse said, now the practice is refusing to give me any more strips and lancets, on the basis that I am not on enough medications. I understand the reasoning; the NHS view is that blood glucose monitoring is really for people at risk of hypoglycemia.

They're not getting the reader back. I'll say I splashed blood on it if they do. Using a calibration solution, its good enough in terms of reproducibility. The supplier offers VAT free refills, but an outrageous delivery charge. The same consumables, with free delivery, are available, with VAT, on Amazon, for less tha the delivered VAT-free cost.

While HbAC1 can be regarded as a 3 month rolling average of blood glucose, I know its is not a simple and acuurate relationship between mmol/mol and mmol/L. Nevertheless, I think some sort of regular monitoring would be helpful to me.

Severe lack of info what I'm supposed to do with my BP log. I've mentioned that I've never been able to reproduce the single measure that the GP made that has put me on medication
Depending on the cost of strips for the monitor you have it may be more economical in the long run to purchase another monitor which takes cheaper strips. GlucoNavii, TEE2 and Contour Blue are usually those from Amazon with cheaper strips. Lancets shouldn't be a problem as many do reuse and they are cheap anyway. I still have most of my box of 100 from 8 years ago.
 
Well,after just receiving a delivery of lancets, I was keen to see where my blood sugar would be. On the 16th October, the nurse, using the same device as current, measured it at 14.0 mmol/L, and it has consistantly declined. At the last measure, on sunday, when I ran out of strips, it was 6.9 mmol/L. I was expecting today to be highish, as I have been tucking into my wife's Thai cooking consisting of a mix of Tom Yum shrimp soup, some pork belly fat-egg stew, a little bit of rice. I confess to having some hot cross buns with butter, and today, for breakfast, a couple of buttered crumpets. And, most dangerouly, sharing a couple of pizzas during the week with my wife, who has taken a liking to pizzas and oven french fries (most western food she doesn't like). I was expecting the worst. It was 2.5 mmol/L. Huh? And the GP wants to double my Metformin next week. I was told that Metformin will never get me anywhere near hypoglycaemic. Lunch time BP is 133/81, a little elevated, but this morning was 125/86. Feel fine.
 
That will be a rogue reading. Some meters, particularly the SinoCare and I think the Kinetic give false low readings if you don't get enough blood on the test strip. Plus 5% of the test strips can be rogue. The important thing is to retest straight away if you get a result which doesn't match with how you feel and you would feel a 2.5 that is for sure. Most likely you would be feeling like you were about to pass out.
 
Contrary to what the diabetic nurse said, now the practice is refusing to give me any more strips and lancets, on the basis that I am not on enough medications. I understand the reasoning; the NHS view is that blood glucose monitoring is really for people at risk of hypoglycemia.

They're not getting the reader back. I'll say I splashed blood on it if they do. Using a calibration solution, its good enough in terms of reproducibility. The supplier offers VAT free refills, but an outrageous delivery charge. The same consumables, with free delivery, are available, with VAT, on Amazon, for less tha the delivered VAT-free cost.

While HbAC1 can be regarded as a 3 month rolling average of blood glucose, I know its is not a simple and acuurate relationship between mmol/mol and mmol/L. Nevertheless, I think some sort of regular monitoring would be helpful to me.

Severe lack of info what I'm supposed to do with my BP log. I've mentioned that I've never been able to reproduce the single measure that the GP made that has put me on medication
Single BP measurements at a GP visit are "performance not nedicine" (in the words of my cardio). Your log is the meaningful thing.

(But I'd also advocate investigating European and US guidance on appropriate BP targets - generally lower than in the UK, for good reason IMO. )
 
Single BP measurements at a GP visit are "performance not nedicine" (in the words of my cardio). Your log is the meaningful thing.
There was that recent guidance on how BP measurements should be made to be accurate (from memory): with the arm relaxed on a table at the same height as the heart, take measurements on both arms, rest for 5 minutes with no talking before taking them, etc. None of those seem likely to happen in a GP surgery.
 
Its early days I know, and Metformin accumulates in the body. I have been on 500mg er day for 2 weeks, and just doubled to 1000mg, as per instructions (I've decided to take in morning and evening with meals). My calorific and carb intake has been slashed. My blood glucose levels seem to have plateaued, at about 5.7-6.1mmol/l (either early morning, or a few hours after lunch). My blood pressure is basically all within normal range throughout the day. I don't know what is the expectation of the Metformin.

I'm curious about the medical reasoning why the GPs don't review with every change in medication. The stepping up of Metformin over a 6 week period "subject to side effects" is predetermined, rather than a review of vitals, and a decision to increase or maintain. I don't want to take medication unecessarily.
 
My blood glucose levels seem to have plateaued, at about 5.7-6.1mmol/l (either early morning, or a few hours after lunch). My blood pressure is basically all within normal range throughout the day. I don't know what is the expectation of the Metformin.

Sounds like it’s working really well for you @saz9961

Metformin seems to be one of the meds that gives a general helping hand ‘in the background’, alongside diet and lifestyle changes.

It’s a common first-line med, it helps increase insulin sensitivity, and reduces glucose output from the liver - in a sense it doesn’t actively reduce glucose on a meal-by-meal basis (eg by increasing insulin output), so much as helping the body use existing insulin production more effectively.
 
I've been tracking my blood glucose. Since 29-10, I've been earnestly cutting down on carbohydrates, and calorific intake, about 1000-1100 kcal per day. I don't feel tired. Today I went for a 4km walk.

Since the 29-10, my blood glucose, at least measured by the NHS issue meter, have been consistantly falling. I've usually done a first thing in the morning measure, and then mid afternoon, a few hours after a light lunch. Evening dinner is usually 400-500kcal.

Tonight, I measured and it was 4.6mmol/L. I repeated, and it came back at 5.3. But if the first number is correct, is that too low. I've been on Metformin for about 3 weeks now, and about a week on 1000mg per day (1 in morning, 1 in evening).


bloods 3112024.jpg
 
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I've been tracking my blood glucose. Since 29-10, I've been earnestly cutting down on carbohydrates, and calorific intake, about 1000-1100 kcal per day. I don't feel tired. Today I went for a 4km walk.

Since the 29-11, my blood glucose, at least measured by the NHS issue meter, have been consistantly falling. I've usually done a first thing in the morning measure, and then mid afternoon, a few hours after a light lunch. Evening dinner is usually 400-500kcal.

Tonight, I measured and it was 4.6mmol/L. I repeated, and it came back at 5.3. But if the first number is correct, is that too low. I've been on Metformin for about 3 weeks now, and about a week on 1000mg per day (1 in morning, 1 in evening).


View attachment 32350
4.6 is just fine. It's a "normal", non-diabetic read.

Really good looking numbers!
 
4.6 is a really great number. Nothing to be worried about. That is where your levels should be. Congratulations and wishing you many more like that.
 
The finger prick test blood glucose ranges people with a Type 2 diabetic diagnosis will be aiming at are 4-7mmol/l fasting/morning and before meals and no more than 8-8.5mmol/l 2 hours after meals. They will do a strategic before and 2 hours after meals to determine what meals are suitable and to be able to make adjustments to their meals. This gives more useful information than random testing.
 
@saz9961 - re your consecutive readings of 4.6 and 5.3. Some time ago I did 10 consecutive readings to get some idea of the reproducibility of blood glucose measurements. You can see the results with some discussion here:-


The upshot is that the reproducibility of finger prick testing is such that your two readings are not statistically different. My own view is that readings should only be considered different if when rounded to the nearest whole number (the number after the decimal point is illusory) they are two or more units in difference. I would report both your results as 5 and not consider that they are different and the sort of reading a non-diabetic would get.

If you are interested in this stuff, have you tried testing before and about 1 hour after eating your most carby meal? I would expect you to then to see a change with before readings of 5 and 1 hr readings of anything up to 9 or 10. That would be a statistically significant difference.

I would also add that readings around 5 are not consistent with an HbA1c of 88. This suggests that whatever you have been doing has been effective in getting your blood glucose levels down. Another HbA1c test would confirm that.

Finger prick testers are amazing bits of kit but an appreciation of the boundaries is needed to avoid reading more into the results than is valid.
 
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The variability is likely not the reader it self, or the strip. You can either try the supplied calibration solution (which will degrade once opened) or make up your own standards. In a previous life, I developed these kinds of test strips (for the military, so not glucose, but the principle remains).

The variability lies in the sample. Its not sample volume; these electrochemical meters have fairly fool proof checks to determine minimum delivered volume, through internal controls on the strip (its not the case that the more sample allied the higher the read number).

What is being measured is the oxidoreductase activity of the immobilised glucose oxidase on the test strip. Likely the glucose oxidase on any test strip sold here has come from British Biocell (BBI), who also make nearly all of the gold nanoparticles used in the COVID-19 rapid tests many have used in recent years. Its manufactured by fermentation of Aspergillus niger (usually). The batches made are huge, and possibly a single batch might be enough for the product lifespan of the associated reader. So batch variations are unlikely. Some strip degradation might be expected; the strips are sensitive to moisture, though coatings are applied to minimise this. Hence don't drop all the strips onto the kitchen floor, and pick them up, keep the top fitted, store in a cool, dry area.

The biggest variable in the sample itself. The instructions are usually precise; clean hands, disregard first drop of blood. How people actually apply this can vary. Enzymes can be quite sensitive to environmental conditions, such as temperature, humidity, interfering substances such as salt, acids, oils.. Your skin is loaded with all of these interfering substances, and more. How you wash your hands affects this; cold water, hot water, soap, dry trissue, wipes etc.

HbA1c measures something that has no known physiolgical function (the ratio between haemoglobin and glucose sticking). There are 3 common techniques; HPLC, Affinity Chromatorgraphy and immunoassay. Immunoassay is a bit terrible to set up because of a non-linear response, plus the need for standards. Affinitiy chromatography is a newish technique, and most labs won't have this kit. 75% of labs will use HPLC. They're not directly measuring glucose concentration in this test; its a ratio or percentage, so the number isn't easily related to blood glucose level.RBCs on average are turned over every 115 days, but actually, it can be between 70 and 140 days. A RBC exists for about 60 days, so you naturally double that number to come up with a rough estimate before all the RBCs are "new".


Rolling averages smooth out curves, mitigate sample variation. When considering if blood glucose tests are "accurate", you've got to consider that there is considerable variability with HbA1c


Moreover, that RBC lifespan can vary according to own health;


Diabetics have greater variation in HbA1c than non-diabetics. which again means, if you are using a HbAc1 as a prognostic tool, then its really only directional, indicating if things are getting better or getting worse. Hence CGM.
 
I realise this is a trivial point unrelated to the bulk of the comment.
disregard first drop of blood
Do any test strip manufacturers actually advise that? I've occasionally seen people write that they do that as an alternative to washing (which sounds plausible to me) but I've not seen any other good reason why it would be worthwhile. I can imagine why it might be, I guess. Maybe the first drop gets interstitial fluid in it and that contaminates it? Whenever I've tried to look up research the results have always been it's harmless but also pointless and they've not been able to find why anyone's recommended it (though people obviously have).
 
What is being measured is the oxidoreductase activity of the immobilised glucose oxidase on the test strip. Likely the glucose oxidase on any test strip sold here has come from British Biocell (BBI), who also make nearly all of the gold nanoparticles used in the COVID-19 rapid tests many have used in recent years. Its manufactured by fermentation of Aspergillus niger (usually). The batches made are huge, and possibly a single batch might be enough for the product lifespan of the associated reader. So batch variations are unlikely. Some strip degradation might be expected; the strips are sensitive to moisture, though coatings are applied to minimise this. Hence don't drop all the strips onto the kitchen floor, and pick them up, keep the top fitted, store in a cool, dry area.
On a tangent, I imagine you have some good insight into the economics of test strips? Mature technology, high volume, visible easily addressed market, low marginal production costs => you'd think that retail prices for strips would be very low if the market were competitive? Or no? Is the R&D & process & production investment big & ongoing enough that you still need high prices even decades after launch? Or is it more a case of unfortunate consequences of a regulated market?
 
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On a tangent, I imagine you have some good insight into the economics of test strips? Mature technology, high volume, visible easily addressed market, low marginal production costs => you'd think that retail prices for strips would be very low if the market were competitive? Or no? Is the R&D & process & production investment big & ongoing enough that you still need high prices even decades after launch? Or is it more a case of unfortunate consequences of a regulated market?

Its not that regulated. Whether UKCA or CE marked, this is a conformance mark, demonstrating that the device meets a design standard, is manufactured in a facility meeting a standard, and has a process to track and report failures. Every manufactured item on sale in the UK needs CE or UKCA. In Europe, CE has been strengthened through two new regulations replacing the previous directives, MDD and IVDR. Test strips fall under IVDR, which is in the process of being phased in.

The new regulations bring in a lot more requirement for clinical data, clinical trial data. High risk devices, such as Class III, have always needed that, so not much change. IVD (In Vitro Diagnostics). Before, under the old Directive, there was very little requirement to provide clinical data to get a test onto the market, it was more about user safety not patient safety.

2020 caused a twist in the UK 2016 vote. The EU exit date was set in stone, and on that date, EU law that was in UK regulations was frozen, and wasn't going to be unpicked. There was a delay to MDD, due to COVID, but its fully part of UK law. IVDR isn't, so technically the UK is following the inferior IVDD, though is accepting, for a good while yet, CE marked devices onto the UK market (though there is a cutoff). In principle, the UK is open for devices that don't meet an EU standard, but do meet a MHRA. The UK hasn't figured out what its going to do yet, the regulations are still in "stakeholder" consultation phase, with some pushing for stricter regulations that Europe, others arguing for less (its about safety v innovation. The new Regulations have lead to less innovation).

Previously, Europe was seen as an ideal market to launch new innovative devices, because of the relatively low bar to get onto market compared to the US. In many parts of the world, there is a perception that CE and FDA 510k are equivalent, especially in those markets where there is no local regulation. That's changed. China and India have immensely strengthened their local regulation, and CE marking might now be as expensive to gain as 510k approval (510k approval requires submission of clinical data to an expert body. This approval helps the CMS in determining if Medicare will reimburse, which then also guides the insurers). Previously, EU member states would conduct their own technical assessments to determine reimbursement (though in practice, Italy and Spain used to run with whatever the British were saying, and save money). Medical devices with CE can be marketed, but it doesn't mean public healthcare systems will pay for them.

In IVD, there are lots of small companies making niche tests for small markets. IVDR might see many exit the market, as they can't afford to commission the clinical studies to stay on the market. While test strips are almost commoditized (there is little difference in strip performance), we might see a reduction in brands, and less competition.

About 10 years ago, the CMS/Medicare investigated the sale of glucose test strips in the US. The big manufacturers were found to have an unhealthy relationship with the pharmacies, resulting in price fixing and too many strips being sold to people who didn't need them. Medicare covers pensioners and people with certain chronic conditions, and so reimburses the costs for a great percentage of test strips. The investigation resulted in big cuts to reimbursement rates. Within a few years, the big makers lost most of their market share, with patients switching to cheaper imported strips from China and Taiwan.

Medical devices are more expensive because they are medical devices; a test strip for a human costs more to make than an otherwise identical test strip made for cats and dogs, or test strips made for garden centres, because its a medical device, and we demand high design standards, high manufacturing standards, and proof of clinical effectiveness. Not so with animal products, where its more reputation that wins share.
 
Thanks for those insights @saz9961. I have often wondered about the science behind finger prick testing and your description goes a long way to satisfying that.

In terms of random errors I have also tended to think about sampling errors. A tiny drop of blood is taken from a large dynamic system and it is assumed that the value obtained from the drop represents the whole. Do you think that is reasonable and do you think that error is smaller or larger than the system measurement errors you have described.
 
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