Meat or veggie?

[bulkbiker]

Moderator note: Side conversation about merits of vegetarian vs meat diets for low carb split from new member’s thread https://forum.diabetes.org.uk/boards/threads/hello-new-diagnosis.103855/#post-1224031

no reason why you can’t continue with your vegetarian diet

The problem of course is the when someone has just been diagnosed with T2 and their HbA1c was 114 mmol/mol it could be said that their current way of eating wasn't doing them any favours.
My suggestion to @Sperato was due to it being far easier to get higher protein and fat foods from animal sourced foods than vegetarian hence my question.
I do know it's possible to do vegetarian low carb but its far easier (and tastier) with some meat or fish included.

 

[Inka]

Not if you’re veggie @bulkbiker Some people literally retch at the sight of meat. There are plenty of sources of veggie protein.

 

[bulkbiker]

And you did put 30kg back on in lockdown

Did I.. really.. and you have some proof of that?

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Did I.. really.. and you have some proof of that?

Ok, typo, two and a half stone then.
That's still a yo-yo diet.
Not an issue, some diets stick better than others, as has been said.

 

[bulkbiker]

Ok, two and a half stone then.
That's still a yo-yo diet.
Not an issue, some diets stick better than others, as has been said.

So being still about 40kg down is a "yo yo diet" ?

 

[nonethewiser]

More & more people seem to be switching to veggie diets, must admit like combination of both meat & veg but do have odd meals that are meat free,

So don't have any issues with people forsaking meat for personal reasons, know fair few vegetarians & they all seem healthy enough, so diet is certainly doable.

 

[42istheanswer]

I was brought up mostly eating vegetarian food for financial reasons, there wasn't enough protein in my diet then according to BHF dietary guidelines for when trying to lose weight, but that was likely at least partly down to the high carbohydrate content of the foods that were cheaper, and I think whilst my mother had a good understanding of ensuring a complete protein intake in terms of all essential amino acids, she didn't know (or maybe was taught differently) what a portion of protein is for a teenager/adult. (When I was trying to lose weight many years ago with a health trainer by following a modified version of the BHF guidelines - basically the men's guidelines rather than the women's to allow for the fact that I was breastfeeding - I quickly discovered that I was not eating sufficient protein at the time.)

I still enjoy many vegetarian meals because I was used to eating them as a child, and agree with @Inka that it is definitely possible to eat higher protein and lower carbohydrate than the standard British diet while only consuming vegetarian foods. For lacto-ovo vegetarians that obviously includes eggs and cheese which are very low carb, but I could easily plan vegan meals that would come in under the frequently recommended 130g carbs per day - they just would have even less in the way of grains/rice/potatoes than is possible while keeping to that target and eating meat.

 

[rebrascora]

I think the problem with people going vegetarian may be that they end up eating more and more highly processed foods and there may well be a connection between highly processed foods and obesity and diabetes.

All these milk alternatives are quite highly processed.
The meat free sausages and burgers and mince etc. are all manufactured foods that bear little resemblance to the starting products and contain additives.
I have no problem with people eating real vegetarian food that they produce from real ingredients, but it is too easy to increasingly buy and eat more processed foods by going vegetarian because many of the meat replacements are highly processed.
My guess would be that the majority of vegetarians these days are buying ready made foods and meat replacements rather than cooking real vegetarian recipes from real ingredients and I think this may turn out to be less healthy than eating meat in the long run.
I am also not convinced that it is better for the planet....particularly the milk alternatives. I cannot see how almond milk with all the issues over pesticide usage, bee colony stress/collapse and draining limited water resources, then manufactured in factories where energy is needed and more water is added and then shipped half way around the world, can possible be less environmentally destructive than milk produced by a cow that grazes a field 8 miles from me! (I buy locally produced milk... not that I use much.)

 

[Deleted member 21371]

The problem is most meat doesn't graze anymore.
High end expensive products do, but there is a lot of factory produced meat, fed on highly processed pelleted feeds made in very large factories, and that is then shipped out.
Swings and roundabouts.

 

[Leadinglights]

As a child in the 50ies we had very little meat as my father was a lifelong vegetarian as was his father and most meals were veggies, eggs and cheese but going to school it was a big shock that I had to eat this horrible meat and it was truly horrible.
The only 'special' veggie foods were something called nut meat brawn that came in a can and a dry mix called savormix to make rissoles.
My Mum was not veggie so when my dad passed away we did eat meat.
There are all sorts of reasons people don't eat meat, ethical, neither like the taste or texture and there is no reason why they should feel they need to to manage blood glucose levels as there are plenty of substitutes they can have which are low carb.

 

[Pumper_Sue]

The problem is most meat doesn't graze anymore.
High end expensive products do, but there is a lot of factory produced meat, fed on highly processed pelleted feeds made in very large factories, and that is then shipped out.
Swings and roundabouts.

It's cheaper to graze livestock rather than have it housed, it's also healthier for the animals.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

It's cheaper to graze livestock rather than have it housed, it's also healthier for the animals.

A grazing cow can produce around 30 litres of milk a day.
Intensive diary farming can double that, and requires a lot less space per animal, so is far more cost effective.
Why do you think supermarket milk is so cheap?

This is milk production now.

UK farmers face dilemma over 8,100-cow 'super-dairy'

Plans for an 8,100-cow dairy farm at Nocton in Lincolnshire will 'polarise' farming in the UK and destroy smaller rural-based family farms say those working in the sector

www.theguardian.com

And, yes, even "grass fed", as opposed to outside grazing on fresh grass, can be grass fed in an intensive dairy farm, and still be advertised as "grass fed".





And then, "grass fed" means a percentage of the diet can still be pelleted feeds, such as over winter, or where grass can't be used for any reason.

As to healthy?
Once their use is over, they are off for dog food.

The same applies to beef farming.

 

[bulkbiker]

The problem is most meat doesn't graze anymore.
High end expensive products do, but there is a lot of factory produced meat, fed on highly processed pelleted feeds made in very large factories, and that is then shipped out.
Swings and roundabouts.

In America perhaps in the UK less so.
For example most of the meat stocked by the butcher I use comes from his own farm run by his son.

 

[bulkbiker]

they all seem healthy enough,

Well the OP that started this thread although now disconnected was a vegetarian who was just diagnosed with an HbA1c of 114 so I'd say their diet wasn't doing them any favours.

 

[bulkbiker]

Not if you’re veggie @bulkbiker Some people literally retch at the sight of meat. There are plenty of sources of veggie protein.

But none are so bioavailable to humans as those from meat of fish so you have to eat more for poorer quality protein.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

In America perhaps in the UK less so.
For example most of the meat stocked by the butcher I use comes from his own farm run by his son.

I think the latest 8100 cattle intensive dairy farm planned for Lincolnshire proves that no matter how much you can't accept it, it has already arrived without you.

 

[bulkbiker]

I think the latest 8100 cattle intensive dairy farm planned for Lincolnshire proves that no matter how much you can't accept it, it has already arrived without you.

Dairy not meat though.

" The problem is most meat doesn't graze anymore."

 

[rebrascora]

I live in the countryside and I help out occasionally on a local beef farm and my milk comes from one of two local farms, both of which graze most of the year but are brought in and fed haylage when the ground is too wet for them to be out as they poach the land. I know how these animals are raised and this is typical of farming in the area in which I live. The beef cattle are also just brought in through the winter and fed mostly haylage with a small amount of barley with and an even smaller amount of pelleted feed which is higher in protein, mixed into it. The vast majority of what they eat is haylage/silage. The pelleted feed is expensive and has to be bought in whereas the haylage and barley is produced on the farm, so it is not in the farmer's interests to feed much of the pelleted feed.... Farmers do not like to spend money unnecessarily I can tell you!

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Dairy not meat though.

" The problem is most meat doesn't graze anymore."

Eddie get a grip.

Your making yourself look silly.
Do you know anything about meat, and dairy production, apart from you buy it from a butcher who owns his own farm?
And his own abattoir no doubt, or does he still slaughter them in the back of his shop?

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I live in the countryside and I help out occasionally on a local beef farm and my milk comes from one of two local farms, both of which graze most of the year but are brought in and fed haylage when the ground is too wet for them to be out as they poach the land. I know how these animals are raised and this is typical of farming in the area in which I live. The beef cattle are also just brought in through the winter and fed mostly haylage with a small amount of barley with and an even smaller amount of pelleted feed which is higher in protein, mixed into it. The vast majority of what they eat is haylage/silage. The pelleted feed is expensive and has to be bought in whereas the haylage and barley is produced on the farm, so it is not in the farmer's interests to feed much of the pelleted feed.... Farmers do not like to spend money unnecessarily I can tell you!

There are many viable methods to finish cattle, (one of the three stages, - calf rearing, growing then fattening/finishing. Many farms specialise in just one part of the process) The advantage of intensive farming is it is just simply efficient, and depends on how fast the breed of cattle can be bulked up.
The other side of the coin is to either go for rare breeds, or at least specific breeds, and rear from birth to shop, and sell the meat as a high end product.

The same way some people buy free range eggs, rather than cage.

The typical beef finishing intensive farm in the UK can turn over 6000 cattle a year, finishing them on feed to fatten them up very quickly for supermarkets. (That isn't grass they are on)