Libre Sensors - Try again in 10 minutes?

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I sit in the middle ground with this. I've had over 25% failure rate, but none that caused a major problem - just frustration at those times.

What does strike me is the apparent lack of overview by the individual in the NHS who manages this contract. We report direct to Abbott our problems; they have a commercial responsibility to resolve this and from my perspective they have always provided a replacement for each failed sensor. What Abbott do with the knowledge from those failures is inevitably 'commercial in confidence' and I (slightly reluctantly) accept that should be so. But there is no sense that the NHS manager for this contract is involved, never mind chasing for improvement - on behalf of users or indeed the taxpayers who ultimately fund this. Is there an audit process that verifies the NHS is getting value for money or the user is getting a product that is fit for purpose? It is very unusual for a contract manager to judge delivery and performance solely on evidence provided by the contractor, rather than the customer.

I particularly struggle with the concept stated by @nonethewiser "agree shouldn't be case with medical equipment but that is life, as frustrating as it is". For household electrical goods - yes; you pay your money and take your choice. But for medical equipment ..... No.

There is no real place for user comment back to the NHS, either from Users, GPs, or Spec Diabetes Teams. None of these groups are taking stock; even this forum (as excellent as it all is) is merely a collection of subjective views on what is an expensive medical product which unquestionably is a game changer for those of us who use it.
Ok. My knowledge is as follows. Each NHS Trust has a Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG) who sit "above" the Trust in question. A CCG autonomous I.e. does not report to the Trust but does hold the purse strings. Their job, is to commission the services needed for the population served by that Trust. That will include, numbers of staff, equipment prescribed, which services they think are needed. This explains why Libre sensors did not roll out nationally at precisely the same time everywhere. It will be up to each CCG to choose to commission (fund) sensors as a prescribed device.

CCG's are concerned wirh cost primarily although you will hear them claim they put patients first, if they do it's because they've done the numbers and like the results. But if Abbott is contracted to replace all faulty devices, then it doesn't cost the CCG any more. So, the only way a CCG could be forced to review what they arecl prepared to fund, would be if Libre fails were creating an extra pressure e.g. enough hospital admissions to raise eyebrows. Apart from that happening it dies as you say come down to anecdotal, qualitative evidence which might well be accurate and true......but it's referring to something which isn't causing additional financial burden to each Trust and therefore the CCG's.

That was an extremely dull reply. I live with that same tension in the work place and sometimes I want to smash my head on a wall because of it..........
 
Been with you for 40 of those years.

Get your frustration, maybe libre 3 will be better who knows, one thing is for certain when libre works well it's amazing piece of kit, can't imagine not having one now & going back to just checking bg, if only these devices were around decades before.
Yes! I tested the first finger prick testing kit when under the John Radcliffe hospital. I also tested the first ever insulin pen in about 1988. Before that it was dip testing urine and comparing the test strip colour to a chart to work out...what??....not blood glucose obviously!
 
Been with you 50 years in the summer if that ever happens this year - well the date will ! and FWIW I only started using Libre last year because I had a trial two when they first came out and they were not anything like what my glucometer reported, neither did they reveal any pattern whatever. Hence I never bothered trying again.

Then last year, there was a poster in my D clinic waiting room telling folk to ask. So I sort of thought Who knows - maybe I should ... and had another try. I'd got to the bit where I thought 'I reckon this is still a waste of time effort & money so I really ought to stop' when the 2 became available and already being prescribed, it was just changed to the 2. I had no hope whatever of it being better.

Since then have to say, it has been pretty reliable! Had one fail a couple of weeks ago. That's ONE.

What does anyone think - should they be 'Yellow Card' ed ?
 
I

I may have overly high expectations! Unfortunately NHS budgets don't include the very good option Helli mentioned of trailing different makes/brands.

I confess to being driven partly by the perspective I bring from my work place I.e. if equipment causes issues it prompts a review, not to lay blame but to see if there are solutions (alternatives).

Hey ho, just keep plodding on. Next month I celebrate (!!!) 52 years Type 1. I'd love to say it's been a blast........but.....blah blah blah all the usual standard gripes 🙂
I belive you can report via the Yellow Card system as for drug reaction.
 
I belive you can report via the Yellow Card system as for drug reaction.
Wondering if enough yellow cards would give Abbott motivation to re-assess component suppliers, manufacture process.

I'm not against Abbott per se, the sensors have allowed me WAY better A1c results than ever before so can't knock that. But, issues, there are issues. Remember compact discs? Expected failure rate of blank cd's depensant upon brand. And accepted it as a known irritant, but it 2as only a CD. This is different....

I'm gonna have to stop posting, I'm stuck in a venting rut.
 
Been with you 50 years in the summer if that ever happens this year - well the date will ! and FWIW I only started using Libre last year because I had a trial two when they first came out and they were not anything like what my glucometer reported, neither did they reveal any pattern whatever. Hence I never bothered trying again.

Then last year, there was a poster in my D clinic waiting room telling folk to ask. So I sort of thought Who knows - maybe I should ... and had another try. I'd got to the bit where I thought 'I reckon this is still a waste of time effort & money so I really ought to stop' when the 2 became available and already being prescribed, it was just changed to the 2. I had no hope whatever of it being better.

Since then have to say, it has been pretty reliable! Had one fail a couple of weeks ago. That's ONE.

What does anyone think - should they be 'Yellow Card' ed ?
Yup, despite venting, I'm sbery grateful to have the control these sensors allow. It's a good invention. Could do with a bit more due diligence in the quality control department.....my opiniin

D
 
Wondering if enough yellow cards would give Abbott motivation to re-assess component suppliers, manufacture process.

I'm not against Abbott per se, the sensors have allowed me WAY better A1c results than ever before so can't knock that. But, issues, there are issues. Remember compact discs? Expected failure rate of blank cd's depensant upon brand. And accepted it as a known irritant, but it 2as only a CD. This is different....

I'm gonna have to stop posting, I'm stuck in a venting rut.
It could be if there was an investigation by the MHRA, and they were found wanting.
 
Ok. My knowledge is as follows. Each NHS Trust has a Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG) who sit "above" the Trust in question. A CCG autonomous I.e. does not report to the Trust but does hold the purse strings. Their job, is to commission the services needed for the population served by that Trust. That will include, numbers of staff, equipment prescribed, which services they think are needed. This explains why Libre sensors did not roll out nationally at precisely the same time everywhere. It will be up to each CCG to choose to commission (fund) sensors as a prescribed device.
If the NHS has any similarity to other big Gov't Depts the CCGs will be funding and purchasing from a centrally derived contract. They have the choice over what they fund, but not necessarily the source of supply. And I think high cost equipment like Libre would have emerged from an invitation to tender for the supply of sensors across the full NHS.

Low cost items might leave Trusts and CCGs with more flexibility, along with local services such as building maintenance - which can't sensibly be provided from a single contract for across UK. One-offs, eg big scanners might also be done on an individual basis - partly because the installation cost is significant as well as the actual piece of equipment.

The disparity in roll-out is, I think, simply down to CCG interpretation along with availability of in-year funds. But most Gov't Depts have to comply with Treasury contract rules (which are always rigorous and cause extra cost in relation to private commercial tendering) and the Public Accounts Committee would be challenging the NHS to explain why they don't use their bulk purchasing power. That's why I think there must be an NHS Contract Manager for this purchase of sensors from Abbott.
CCG's are concerned wirh cost primarily although you will hear them claim they put patients first, if they do it's because they've done the numbers and like the results. But if Abbott is contracted to replace all faulty devices, then it doesn't cost the CCG any more. So, the only way a CCG could be forced to review what they arecl prepared to fund, would be if Libre fails were creating an extra pressure e.g. enough hospital admissions to raise eyebrows.
I think you've hit a nail on the head here - if CCGs became aware of patient concerns about quality, they would be well placed to raise this with the appropriate NHS manager, but because Abbott's shortcoming with quality control doesn't affect CCGs' budgets they have little incentive to look into this. How would a CCG even know there is a problem un the background. GPs won't be aware, never mind telling CCGs; Spec teams probably do know, but are part of big hospitals with inherent wasteful processes that just shrug and let apathy rule.
That was an extremely dull reply. I live with that same tension in the work place and sometimes I want to smash my head on a wall because of it..........
Yes, I also had that tension and frustration in my former workplace. But I was also lucky enough to have been trained (along with many of my colleagues) with an underlying indoctrination that: if you see something wrong and do nothing, then you condone that and in so doing you approve that. That often gave me an avenue to push along seeking improvement in that something.
 
It could be if there was an investigation by the MHRA, and they were found wanting.
My concern would be that if it was yellow carded enough, it would be withdrawn from the market or lose the NHS contract and we would all lose out at least in the short term until they got the reliability sorted.

I think if they were to give you/us an indication of what the the problem(s) is/are and that they are attempting to address it/them, then we might be more sympathetic or understanding, but simply having them replaced does not leave us with a feel good factor, especially for those who are having persistent problems. I think if they were more open and honest (and surely they must have identified at least some of the issues from the returns they have received), then people would feel less frustrated with them and be more accepting of the situation in the knowledge that they are working on fixing it, but at the moment it must feel for many like they are somehow at fault or at least feel awkward about having to report persistent failures, to say nothing of the time they spend reporting them and the loss of confidence in the product.
 
Been with you 50 years in the summer if that ever happens this year - well the date will ! and FWIW I only started using Libre last year because I had a trial two when they first came out and they were not anything like what my glucometer reported, neither did they reveal any pattern whatever. Hence I never bothered trying again.

Then last year, there was a poster in my D clinic waiting room telling folk to ask. So I sort of thought Who knows - maybe I should ... and had another try. I'd got to the bit where I thought 'I reckon this is still a waste of time effort & money so I really ought to stop' when the 2 became available and already being prescribed, it was just changed to the 2. I had no hope whatever of it being better.

Since then have to say, it has been pretty reliable! Had one fail a couple of weeks ago. That's ONE.

What does anyone think - should they be 'Yellow Card' ed ?
Great idea, but if the person responsible for the poor service (NHS or CCG procurement manager) is not actively involved in the service delivery its too easy for Abbott to continue just as they are, justifying their action by saying they invariably replace faulty sensors, without quantifying what percentage they're replacing. Also without the NHS becoming aware that some T1s are discontinuing their use of Libre because of unreliability. Unless an MP is triggered to ask his Parliamentary colleague about this aspect of service delivery.
 
My concern would be that if it was yellow carded enough, it would be withdrawn from the market or lose the NHS contract and we would all lose out at least in the short term until they got the reliability sorted.

I think if they were to give you/us an indication of what the the problem(s) is/are and that they are attempting to address it/them, then we might be more sympathetic or understanding, but simply having them replaced does not leave us with a feel good factor, especially for those who are having persistent problems. I think if they were more open and honest (and surely they must have identified at least some of the issues from the returns they have received), then people would feel less frustrated with them and be more accepting of the situation in the knowledge that they are working on fixing it, but at the moment it must feel for many like they are somehow at fault or at least feel awkward about having to report persistent failures, to say nothing of the time they spend reporting them and the loss of confidence in the product.
Yes, full agreement from here!
 
Yup, despite venting, I'm sbery grateful to have the control these sensors allow. It's a good invention. Could do with a bit more due diligence in the quality control department.....my opiniin
Yes, agreed. Also extremely grateful and I would struggle to self fund, without sacrificing something else.

Ironically, this dialogue caused me to look more accurately at my failure stats. In 13 full months, so 28 or 29 sensor fortnights, I've got paperwork for 15 deliveries of replacement sensors, which means I've had c.50% fail. I had deluded myself into thinking it was nearer 25%.
 
Yes, agreed. Also extremely grateful and I would struggle to self fund, without sacrificing something else.

Ironically, this dialogue caused me to look more accurately at my failure stats. In 13 full months, so 28 or 29 sensor fortnights, I've got paperwork for 15 deliveries of replacement sensors, which means I've had c.50% fail. I had deluded myself into thinking it was nearer 25%.
When i was using them only 2 lasted the full 14 days out of i dont know how many
 
Yes! I tested the first finger prick testing kit when under the John Radcliffe hospital. I also tested the first ever insulin pen in about 1988. Before that it was dip testing urine and comparing the test strip colour to a chart to work out...what??....not blood glucose obviously!

Remember those changes well, just like libre & cgm today they were godsend, same with faster acting insulin, less time hanging about waiting for insulin to kick in.
 
I've been using Libre for five years, I was able to get switched to prescription almost three years ago. During almost all that time I have used blucon, xdrip, phone and watch with Libre 1. (I have also used two Libre 2 sensors.)

During the full five years I have had seven sensors replaced due to failure. Three of those failures occurred during a single week, so perhaps a bad batch may have been responsible.

These last three years I have not had a single bad sensor, so seventy good sensors in a row for me.

I always keep two spare Libre sensors in my house, just in case, but Abbott seem to be performing at a very reasonable level.
 
I didn't want to start a new thread as its Libre sensor related so thought I'd ask on here. Do any of you guys get intermittent problems with your libre sensor actually working. Its been happening to me more lately. I'll test and it takes the reading. Then I go to test 10 mins later and it says error and can't take a reading. I leave it a few minutes and hey ho it works again. Its quite frustrating.

Also where do you apply your sensors? I don't have much loose flesh but apply mine about half way up on my upper arm between my elbow and shoulder joint round towards the back side of my arm. Not sure if this is the best place but it is the most fleshy part of my arm.
Hello Simon,
I've had many issues with my sensors. Falling off after having a bath along with technical issues. I have just been told at my diabetic check up that if you get the repeat in 10 minutes message then you mustn't attempt another reading for at least 10 minutes as the sensor will often be terminated. My current sensor has been on for 9 days - the longest so far without falling off or having to replace it due to technical problem. I have also been using the waterproof patches with my current sensor so mabe that is having a positve result with it lasting longer than the others. Regards, Darren
 
I have just been told at my diabetic check up that if you get the repeat in 10 minutes message then you mustn't attempt another reading for at least 10 minutes as the sensor will often be terminated.
I'm skeptical. That's not been my experience, and I don't see why it would happen. (I could imagine them building a system that would behave like that, but I can't imagine why they'd do so.)
 
I'm skeptical. That's not been my experience, and I don't see why it would happen. (I could imagine them building a system that would behave like that, but I can't imagine why they'd do so.)
Well, there are clearly issues with the sensor and my diabetic doctor has dealt with several patients experiencing the same issue. Hopefully just teething problems as it is still quite a new system.
 
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