Latest Covid 19 info

[Docb]

Keith, I have been trying to make sense of the papers on which this media stuff is based - see the thread in the "in the news section". From what I have so far gleaned, I, a 74 years old, well controlled T2, am not panicking and won't be trying to stir up my MP. Pointless exercise any way since he is a Boris shirt tail holder.

 

[Keith McMillan]

Hi Docb, Are you going out to work and into a social distancing nightmare? This is the place where I will get COVID if I do. Well done for trying to work it out for yourself. Personally I need an official statement from trusted health health professionals to say the risk is the same for me as anyone else having to go back in right now - not from the person that told us to catch COVID for his herd immunity experiment. If this isn't possible I need to be protected by inclusion in the extremely vulnerable pigeon hole, and from instant dismissal. (My MP has been taken out because he is thought to have done something bad but his wife has stood in). Yes they are Boris's people as well. MPs are there to serve and be contacted though so why not do it, if like me you feel like a lamb to the slaughter and think something should be done?

 

[Keith McMillan]

Would it be possible to have something clear from the organisation please letting me and others know how you think we should proceed, or any actions that can be taken to help the cause. Perhaps I face the same risk as people without conditions going back in to work, but need something better than what is available if indeed this is the case. If I am at greater risk then I need greater protection than advice given by the government which is shared on this website.

 

[Docb]

Obviously not going out to work but am taking care not to get into gatherings and paying attention to time of contact when out and about. Appreciate its a trickier thing to do in a work environment.

The sort of feeling I am coming to is that the case for doing something different simply because you have a diagnosis of diabetes is marginal. Add age, out of control diabetes and obesity to the mix then maybe things would be a little different. I am personally getting a bit tired of one size fits all recommendations simply because you end up saddling everybody with the restrictions applicable for the most vulnerable. I prefer proper risk assessments against a given set of circumstances and if the data were presented in that way then maybe it would help.

By the way, all organisations have a vested interest in the matter so you need to shade your acceptance of their views with that in mind.

 

[Bexlee]

@Keith McMillan if you look on the diabetes uk website (I’ve attached a photo of headline) it gives a clear picture I think and suggests employment solutions / protection so to speak. Worth a read. What sort of work do you do?

 

[Keith McMillan]

Obviously not going out to work but am taking care not to get into gatherings and paying attention to time of contact when out and about. Appreciate its a trickier thing to do in a work environment.

The sort of feeling I am coming to is that the case for doing something different simply because you have a diagnosis of diabetes is marginal. Add age, out of control diabetes and obesity to the mix then maybe things would be a little different. I am personally getting a bit tired of one size fits all recommendations simply because you end up saddling everybody with the restrictions applicable for the most vulnerable. I prefer proper risk assessments against a given set of circumstances and if the data were presented in that way then maybe it would help.

By the way, all organisations have a vested interest in the matter so you need to shade your acceptance of their views with that in mind.that

You are doing the right thing and keep yourself safe. It would be wrong of me to suggest my work is more dangerous than anyone else's. But if I said crammed offices with no restrictions on staff attendance, staff with long term sinus and persistent cough/sneezing issues, small offices all sharing the bit of air, narrow corridors, small loos with no restrictions, industrial dust (a carrier), one to one assistance at the desk-side with many members when I can't assist remotely, sharing phones and keyboards. That's a starter. Plus I am getting towards retirement age. Why through that away by putting my life in peril now?

You are bang saying one size fits doesn't fit all and that risk assessments should be completed and used to access people in different situations. This should be used against what is, or will be put in place e.g the app. Right now where is the app? Where is PPE businesses? Where is testing at?

Please can you clarify who has vested interest and in what? I can only comment about myself and others in the same boat. I understand my employers circumstances and the need to get the economy doing. I understand some want to return to work, but at least they have the choice. I don't have a choice when asked to return. So my need is great when I see this:
Almost a third of patients to die with Covid-19 had diabetes – NHS England

 

[Docb]

Keith, my comment about vested interest was referring to the various forces disseminating the information...

The government will present it in such a way that they look good.
The opposition will present it to make the government look bad.
The press will use it to write headlines to sell newspapers.
The broadcast media will use it to fill time and create controversy.

Oh and the scientists. They have conflicting interests. The paper I have been looking at has 13 authors - you would think me cynical to suggest some of them got their name on it because it gives them brownie points, useful when it comes to pay talks. Science papers rarely come to firm conclusions because one of the objectives of research is to use it to get a contract for follow up studies. And you might have thought that at least one of the 13 authors might have spotted the two glaring typos in the text. I only hope there were no glaring errors in the analysis.

That last set of comments comes from an ex-scientist who spent many years researching all sorts of topics. Been there and got the T-shirt. The only thing that does not carry any spin is the raw data, and even then its often a good idea to check that!

 

[Keith McMillan]

@Keith McMillan if you look on the diabetes uk website (I’ve attached a photo of headline) it gives a clear picture I think and suggests employment solutions / protection so to speak. Worth a reasures in place to allow stringent social distancing for those key workers who absolutely must be at work. ad. What sort of work do you do?

Thank you for sharing this Bexlee. I did read it yesterday and have now gone through the updated version. Today it verifies that I am at significant risk but there isn't anything new to help face down employers when I need to shield - although I appreciate the efforts made by the organisation to bring this to the attention of the powers to be. Right now, being in the vulnerable group prohibits shielding in the government's eyes and my employer's eyes. I appreciate the organisation presenting the emerging facts but when will there been an outcome? What are the chances of changes being made at the top? What can I/we do to bump it up?

I haven't found anything in My Rights section that specifically relates to COVID so I presume I have no rights if I say "Sorry I can't go in to work as I will be at significant risk because social distancing will not be stringent enough for me". Or "I would go in but the app hasn't out yet". Or "You have no PPE". Or "No one else is wearing PPE". Or "Perspex screens won't stop a sneeze coming my way as shown on the BBC". Or "I have to walk through rows of members with less than 2 m between us".

On a smaller matter concerning the statement below. Who are the key workers? I'm manufacturing, but to my knowledge not a key worker. Then it would imply manufacturing workers don't have to go to work if they are diabetic. This contradicts government advice that states I must be talking to my employer about returning to work now.

If we are at greater risk, surely shielding should be our decision to take until infections are nearly zero for a reasonable length of time? Should infections rise again then we should then have the right to go back to shielding.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

@Keith McMillan if you look on the diabetes uk website (I’ve attached a photo of headline) it gives a clear picture I think and suggests employment solutions / protection so to speak. Worth a read. What sort of work do you do?

Here’s the link to the page in case anyone is struggling to find it.

NHSE statistics on coronavirus deaths in people with diabetes

A study from NHS England revealed that one in three people (33.2%) who have died in hospital in England following a diagnosis of coronavirus also had diabetes. We know this statistic raised a lot more questions than it did answers, and it may have left you feeling increasingly worried.

www.diabetes.org.uk

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

If we are at greater risk, surely shielding should be our decision to take until infections are nearly zero for a reasonable length of time? Should infections rise again then we should then have the right to go back to shielding.

Personally, I think it’s important to establish what the ‘Risk’ is in order to act appropriately.

Everything I have read so far suggests people with diabetes (of any type) are no more likely than anyone else to catch Covid-19.

Also, as far as I understand it (and I confess it’s a week since I looked at this stuff, which is a long time in Coronavirus terms!) people with diabetes are no more likely than anyone else to have a severe case.

Where it seems to get tricky is if you live with diabetes (particularly T1), and are obese or overweight, and also over 70, and with a history of high BG, and you catch Coronavirus, AND you get it badly.

Which is why they’ve not put PWD on the complete isolation lockdown list, I think.

Having said that, we are at increased risk, and the best way ultimately of reducing that risk is trying not to get it, and certainly not getting it when the healthcare system is a bit stretched.

So lots of handwashing, and being extra careful about social distancing, working from home if possible, and working with your employer to ensure you are as protected as possible if you cant work from home, are all worthwhile precautions.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

I thought you might also find some snippets of a statement from DUK helpful @Keith McMillan

“It’s very important to remember that the risk of dying from coronavirus – for people with and without diabetes – remains very low, and that as cases of coronavirus decline, the risk to everyone of catching the disease will reduce in turn. It’s also important to remember that the numbers of children and young people with type 1, and those under the age of 40 who have died from coronavirus are very small.​

​

“We know people with diabetes will want to know what they can do to keep themselves safe. The most important thing anyone with diabetes can do is try their best to manage their condition carefully, keeping their blood sugar in range as much as possible. All people with diabetes should also follow stringent social distancing measures to reduce their chances of catching the virus altogether.”​

​

Specifically, Diabetes UK is calling on the UK Government to ensure:​

​

People with diabetes must be kept safe at work​

People with diabetes should not be put in a situation that puts them at risk at work. Employers must put measures in place to keep people with diabetes safe, either by supporting people to work at home, or where this is not possible by putting people with diabetes on furlough, or by putting measures in place to allow stringent social distancing for those key workers who absolutely must be at work.​

​

The government must ensure this guidance for employers is clear, consistent, and enforced so it is focused on the safety of their employees above all else. We need to make sure that the new government workplace guidelines work for people with diabetes.​

​

People with diabetes must be able to access support to manage their diabetes and keep themselves safe​

Having access to healthy food is important to people with diabetes and this has not always been easy when there has been such pressure on delivery slots. It’s also important that people with diabetes have access to other forms of support, for example to help with collecting medication from pharmacies where needed and for transport to urgent hospital appointments, which can’t be conducted remotely.​

​

Health and social care services are dealing with a challenging situation and must be supported to ensure people with diabetes can continue to access the services, information and care they need during this difficult time, including emotional and psychological support.​

 

[Keith McMillan]

Personally, I think it’s important to establish what the ‘Risk’ is in order to act appropriately.

Everything I have read so far suggests people with diabetes (of any type) are no more likely than anyone else to catch Covid-19.

Also, as far as I understand it (and I confess it’s a week since I looked at this stuff, which is a long time in Coronavirus terms!) people with diabetes are no more likely than anyone else to have a severe case.

Where it seems to get tricky is if you live with diabetes (particularly T1), and are obese or overweight, and also over 70, and with a history of high BG, and you catch Coronavirus, AND you get it badly.

Which is why they’ve not put PWD on the complete isolation lockdown list, I think.

Having said that, we are at increased risk, and the best way ultimately of reducing that risk is trying not to get it, and certainly not getting it when the healthcare system is a bit stretched.

So lots of handwashing you are as protected as possible if you cant work from home, are all worthwhile precautions.

Hi Forum,
Is there anyone like me out there in a similar position?

Anyway, I appreciate your experience Everyday and for providing this wisdom. Being taken into hospital with diabetes is where it gets bad as far as I can tell and age does seem to be crucial to outcome. You mention hand washing but I will be at the mercy of others to be diligent, and I know one employee that never washes his hands in the loo whatever the circumstances!

I will be entering an environment poorly equipped for social distancing, doing a job demanding more contact with people than normal like bus drivers - we already know what happens to poor bus drivers, and no one will be wearing face coverings. I can't get NHS masks (they need to be frequently changed) and a visor. Giving assistance by phone would be nearly impossible wearing them whilst also operating computers. My employer has already asked the question, can you do all your job from home? The answer is I can do much, but not all of my work from home. Now I am hiding behind the soffa. 🙂

We all have our story to tell and I think in my position it would be too risky for me to go in at the moment. As previously said, retirement is in sight and I don't want to pop my clogs having got this far. I believe I have a valid case not to be forced in right now. Unfortunately the dice is loaded and not in my favour. There is bound to be many more in a similar position. Strangely they don't appear to be looking at this thread.

 

[Keith McMillan]

I thought you might also find some snippets of a statement from DUK helpful @Keith McMillan

“It’s very important to remember that the risk of dying from coronavirus – for people with and without diabetes – remains very low, and that as cases of coronavirus decline, the risk to everyone of catching the disease will reduce in turn. It’s also important to remember that the numbers of children and young people with type 1, and those under the age of 40 who have died from coronavirus are very small.​

​

“We know people with diabetes will want to know what they can do to keep themselves safe. The most important thing anyone with diabetes can do is try their best to manage their condition carefully, keeping their blood sugar in range as much as possible. All people with diabetes should also follow stringent social distancing measures to reduce their chances of catching the virus altogether.”​

​

Specifically, Diabetes UK is calling on the UK Government to ensure:​

​

People with diabetes must be kept safe at work​

People with diabetes should not be put in a situation that puts them at risk at work. Employers must put measures in place to keep people with diabetes safe, either by supporting people to work at home, or where this is not possible by putting people with diabetes on furlough, or by putting measures in place to allow stringent social distancing for those key workers who absolutely must be at work.​

​

The government must ensure this guidance for employers is clear, consistent, and enforced so it is focused on the safety of their employees above all else. We need to make sure that the new government workplace guidelines work for people with diabetes.​

​

People with diabetes must be able to access support to manage their diabetes and keep themselves safe​

Having access to healthy food is important to people with diabetes and this has not always been easy when there has been such pressure on delivery slots. It’s also important that people with diabetes have access to other forms of support, for example to help with collecting medication from pharmacies where needed and for transport to urgent hospital appointments, which can’t be conducted remotely.​

​

Health and social care services are dealing with a challenging situation and must be supported to ensure people with diabetes can continue to access the services, information and care they need during this difficult time, including emotional and psychological support.​

I expect my employer to say I know all this. Come in or get fired.
That's the bit I will need assistance with.

 

[Bexlee]

I don’t really want to enter into a heated debate or rant but @Keith McMillan have you actually had a conversation with your employer ??? As I understand it been classed as clinically vulnerable by having diabetes (not extremely clinically vulnerable and shieldingemployers have the duty to try and make you feel safe at work ......

“Employers must put measures in place to keep people with diabetes safe, either by supporting people to work at home, or where this is not possible by putting people with diabetes on furlough, or by putting measures in place to allow stringent social distancing for those key workers who absolutely must be at work”

It is an anxious time for all of us who have to go out to work.......it is an anxious time for all.

so long as YOU wash your hands regularly and don’t touch your face, eyes, nose, mouth after touching surfaces it shouldn’t pose a higher risk. I’m not sure how gloves help the general population as the glove surface kind of just becomes your hand! I’m pretty sure in government documentation for businesses there’s mention somewhere of computer keyboards etc.

 

[Bexlee]

Here’s the link to the page in case anyone is struggling to find it.

NHSE statistics on coronavirus deaths in people with diabetes

A study from NHS England revealed that one in three people (33.2%) who have died in hospital in England following a diagnosis of coronavirus also had diabetes. We know this statistic raised a lot more questions than it did answers, and it may have left you feeling increasingly worried.

www.diabetes.org.uk

Thanks @everydayupsanddowns i don’t know who to attach it!

 

[Becka]

In addition to Bexlee's comments, here are is the official guidance to employees for people at higher risk, which includes the with diabetes. If they fail to do this you can report is to the Health & Safety Executive as employers have a legal responsibility for ensuring your workplace is safe.

Reducing the spread of respiratory infections, including COVID-19, in the workplace

Public health principles for reducing the spread of respiratory infections, including COVID-19, in the workplace.

www.gov.uk

But have you spoken to your G.P. about your concerns, Keith? If they think it appropriate, they can put you on the shielding list. Although diabetes is not listed as a condition which puts you at a very high risk, the decision is left to your doctor's experience and clinical judgment of your overall health.

The increased risk from being diabetic seems to be causing you a lot of anxiety. Although a perfectly valid understandable reaction, anxiety is itself a health problem and could be detrimental to your overall health.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Thanks @everydayupsanddowns i don’t know who to attach it!

no problem @Bexlee - just copy the page address from the address bar and paste it into a message - the forum should convert it into a clickable link when you save 🙂

 

[Keith McMillan]

I don’t really want to enter into a heated debate or rant but @Keith McMillan have you actually had a conversation with your employer ??? As I understand it been classed as clinically vulnerable by having diabetes (not extremely clinically vulnerable and shieldingemployers have the duty to try and make you feel safe at work ......

“Employers must put measures in place to keep people with diabetes safe, either by supporting people to work at home, or where this is not possible by putting people with diabetes on furlough, or by putting measures in place to allow stringent social distancing for those key workers who absolutely must be at work”

It is an anxious time for all of us who have to go out to work.......it is an anxious time for all.

so long as YOU wash your hands regularly and don’t touch your face, eyes, nose, mouth after touching surfaces it shouldn’t pose a higher risk. I’m not sure how gloves help the general population as the glove surface kind of just becomes your hand! I’m pretty sure in government documentation for businesses there’s mention somewhere of computer keyboards etc.

It's getting a bit hot for me because my point isn't getting across. I have read the links thank you. Ranting is perfectly OK although I haven't seen any yet. I am a fan of the phrase anger is an energy but I'm not angry. It makes absolute sense to me that shielding should be an option for anyone with diabetes because of poor outcomes if we enter hospital with COVID. Especially taking age into consideration. I cannot do this according to the government. Being thrown into a social distancing nightmare will further ramp up risk and fear. I can't criticise my employer but let's just say I know them well.

At the moment the emphasis is on touching face. This is only one route for viral transmission. The eyes are another. Forget perspex it won't work. Not touching face is one of the hardest things to do and virtually impossible.

Anxiety will be much reduced with greater freedom of choice for individuals.

I hope this sums up the predicament for me and many. People reading this discussion might find it more difficult to understand if not in the same position, or worse. I've just been outside clapping for our NHS. I'm not adding to their burdon.

 

[Keith McMillan]

In addition to Bexlee's comments, here are is the official guidance to employees for people at higher risk, which includes the with diabetes. If they fail to do this you can report is to the Health & Safety Executive as employers have a legal responsibility for ensuring your workplace is safe.

Reducing the spread of respiratory infections, including COVID-19, in the workplace

Public health principles for reducing the spread of respiratory infections, including COVID-19, in the workplace.

www.gov.uk

But have you spoken to your G.P. about your concerns, Keith? If they think it appropriate, they can put you on the shielding list. Although diabetes is not listed as a condition which puts you at a very high risk, the decision is left to your doctor's experience and clinical judgment of your overall health.

The increased risk from being diabetic seems to be causing you a lot of anxiety. Although a perfectly valid understandable reaction, anxiety is itself a health problem and could be detrimental to your overall health.

Thanks Becka. I didn't know that shielding is still a possibility and I will ask a doctor. At the moment I can't join a surgery following a house move because surgeries are passing the buck and won't let me in. This is with NHS England. I've read about employers having to make the workplace safe, but if it got as far as approaching the H&S Excecutive I would have already been sacked. Handy to know but my argument is that things wouldn't have to get that far if shielding was an option for the vulnerable. Completing the loop then; I didn't know that shielding is still a possibility and I will ask a doctor (when I can find one).

Surely a target should be 'make shielding an option for the vulnerable' for now.

 

[Keith McMillan]

Keith, my comment about vested interest was referring to the various forces disseminating the information...

The government will present it in such a way that they look good.
The opposition will present it to make the government look bad.
The press will use it to write headlines to sell newspapers.
The broadcast media will use it to fill time and create controversy.

Oh and the scientists. They have conflicting interests. The paper I have been looking at has 13 authors - you would think me cynical to suggest some of them got their name on it because it gives them brownie points, useful when it comes to pay talks. Science papers rarely come to firm conclusions because one of the objectives of research is to use it to get a contract for follow up studies. And you might have thought that at least one of the 13 authors might have spotted the two glaring typos in the text. I only hope there were no glaring errors in the analysis.

That last set of comments comes from an ex-scientist who spent many years researching all sorts of topics. Been there and got the T-shirt. The only thing that does not carry any spin is the raw data, and even then its often a good idea to check that!

Sorry I get where you're coming from now Docb. These authors need spell checker training by the sounds.

I sit next to a senior scientist every day now. She's WFH and called the Mrs, and she thinks the R number is poppycock. Spelling mistakes are a no-no with scientific papers. Especially equations I expect.

Perhaps I should be looking at the raw data and running it through some SQL queries. I've no idea where to find it and it usually comes at a price. I'm not a scientist though and this will bog me down no doubt.