It’s all guesswork!!

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I know it very much depends on your hospital/health board but it might be worth asking your GP (or did you have a Specialist Nurse contact for your surgery?) about access to a Dietitian as well as the diabetes nurse. I struggle to get hold of the DSN but the Dietitian team are much more available. As well as diabetes you're also at risk of malnutrition and various deficiencies so you should be having blood tests every 6 months or so as well as being weighed. I also found they were well informed on the links/overlap with Diabetes.

I'm about 8 weeks post operation and lost about 8 kilogrammes so 10 doesn't sound too bad. Although I've had some support much of my learning about insulin has been through trial and error. It does feel a bit bleak but you'll also start to pick up knowledge. As Barbara says you soon learn not to over compensate for lows, which foods take longer to digest which means taking the Rapid later or even splitting it. No one told me I could do that but its the answer if I'm having pizza.

You should also be invited to an outpatient appointment soon - probably at your local hospital as you also need to have regular checks on limbs, eyes etc but that might be a good place to ask about extra support.
Thank you for trying to help me…... I’m not doing too well with invitations anywhere!!! The best I can get is dsn’s who have not encountered anyone who’s had their pancreas removed. There is no diabetes dietitian or consultant to check me over…I live in Powys & it’s a bit like the dark ages sometimes!!
 
Hello @ Ronnie5cakes, I came to this Forum after my Whipples Procedure in Feb '20; I had a total pancreatectomy, like yourself, except the pathology from my Whipples confirmed an excess of malignant nodes, so it was justified. I spent 3 months recuperating from the Surgery then had a number of chemo sessions, which did not suit me at all !!

Your title of "It's all guesswork!!" resonates with me. I spent most of my 1st year on that roller coaster of dreadful lows and terrific highs, with not much time in the middle and I also had a great deal of access to a DSN at the Hospital. In hindsight she was a delightful person who simply did not understand that my world was different to new T1s that she normally encountered. This DSN finally proved that when my GP was trying to ration me to a maximum of 4 test strips per day and when (unknown to me) asked by my GP, my DSN confirmed that I tested too much and 4 was absolutely all I needed. I received Libre a month later after I'd spelt out to both my GP and DSN that not only did I need to test regularly but it was also a legal remit from the DVLA. Now 4+ yrs on I frequently encounter Health Care Professionals (HCPs) working closely to Diabetes or any Endocrinology who haven't thought through what I'm missing having surrendered my panc'y.

Anyway, you've had loads of info in the last 8 hrs and I've galloped through what you have now been told. So I'll read it all again and see if there is anything that I would have loved to know, that you haven't already heard today and get back to you. One thing I didn't spot was Gary Scheiner's book "Think Like a Pancreas". I found this quite early on and read it cover to cover, only skipping the Chapter on insulin pumps, because then my likelihood of becoming eligible was nil; even that is today a more realistic possibility - so there is lots of potential change happening currently. We've already seen in the last 2 yrs the rollout of CGM (mainly Libre 2) to almost all T1s who want it and EVEN T3cs who previously just weren't naturally eligible (reflects how poorly T3c has been understood!). Also all the current CGMs have progressed into being "real time" readings, whee previously the sensor had the data, but you had to stop and scan to find anything out.

Finally as I close @Wendal told you it does get easier and I wholly agree with that. I also agree that my D is noticeably "brittle", ie quick to crash with far too little time to recognise its going to happen and take pre-emptive action. My solution is to have my low alert threshold set at 6.5 (I have the Dexcom G7 CGM which allows this; your Libre 2 alas only allows a top limit of 5.6 mmol/L for their low Alarm. The clue here is that I get sensible "Alert" time from my G7; I think Libre is more of an "Alarm" at 5.6 which is insufficient time to do the theoretical finger prick check, weigh up why, then respond appropriately. But from 6.5 I can often intercept a fall, nudge against that with 5 to 10 medium GI carbs (often a high protein snack bar) AND still have time to monitor and check my intercept is working, before the crash is upon me!

Good luck, please don't hesitate to ask anything that might help you. Lots to learn about this "Complicated, Confusing and Contradictory" business [ref Gary Scheiner] [So true]. It is a marathon, not a sprint; and Trial and Learning takes time!
Thank you for trying to help me…you have told me lots of good stuff…and just like you I feel the need to keep checking the libre readings because highs & lows happen so so fast. The dsn’s just haven’t the experience to help really… we need experts like yourself who have had years of experience post whipple. I’m really grateful for everyone here helping me on my journey with all this info & support….
 
I am going to give you 2 bits if info, Ronnie. The first one is that despite what 'they' say - Lantus insulin does not release itself into your bloodstream at a strictly level rate over the next 24 hours after it's injected. Over the first 4 to 5 hours, it builds up to a mini peak in activity. So if you go to bed at 10pm with a perfect blood glucose of 6.0 annoyingly that '5 hour most active time' coincides with the time of night when human blood glucose is naturally at its lowest ebb - hence hypos can ensue which ain't ideal. Second thing is for what its worth for Type 1 diabetes, when we all first set out on learning to adjust our own insulin meal doses - it was suggested to try 1u Novorapid for each 10g carbohydrate and see if that worked OK - in other words we all had to basically do medical experiments on ourselves as our very own personal Lab Rat! Nobody ever knows upfront exactly how that will go for each of us. Gradually we have to become expert in treating our own diabetes - which by no means makes us expert in treating anyone else's.

Have fun experimenting!
Thank you for trying to help ….. good info there for me..I do feel like a lab rat…!! At the mo…. I’m just supposed to use an injection regime of so much per meal & a correction dose if necessary….No one asks me what I’m eating or how much I eat!! I’ve gone from eating almost nothing due to nausea to now wanting the amounts I used to have as a big eater who never put an ounce on… They think counting carbs & educating me will blow my mind!! I feel my mind blowing every day from the randomness of the dose I take to how it actually works with my body…thank goodness kind people here & trying to help me work through the new way of life….
 
If you are always/frequently hypoing after injecting NR, perhaps you need to inject slightly later? How long before eating are you injecting?
Thanks for trying to help…..I was injecting 15 minutes before food…it has now been advised to inject when I start to eat… it’s helping a bit…
 
I was thinking the same thing.
I was also wondering whether the highs @Ronnie5cakes is experiencing is because he has calculated his bolus for the meal which is approximately what his body needs but then he has more carbs to treat the hypo resulting in the insulin needing to work with more carbs. In normal circumstances, I would definitely not bolus for hypo treatment but if one occurs because the insulin works faster than the food, the hypo treatment is "using up" some of this bolus.
I am not sure if that is clear. It is not easy to explain.
Thanks for trying to help me….. you are exactly right in your thoughts…. This is what I say but the DSN’s do not get it at all!
 
@Ronnie5cakes, I undertook to read all that you were told during Monday and add if there was something that occurred to me.

There is so much to get one's mind around: so many insulin types with different consequences; 42 recognised factors that can affect BG; is PERT providing full digestion? The consequence is that the "numbers" are our best attempt to make D management a science and in practice it is much more of an art. Throw into that mix that we all are different and one person's metabolic response to any one scenario could be very different to the next person - thus shared knowledge can help but might further confuse.

An observation about insulin, if I may. To our body insulin is just .... well ... insulin. Your body doesn't know if the insulin is natural or extraneous. It doesn't know that some clever engineering has made extraneous insulin to be rapid or slow release. Insulin as a hormone "facilitates" the movement of glucose out of your blood. If insulin is there in your blood your body will make use of it to draw glucose from your blood into your cells for repairing damaged cells, making new cells and generally doing all that good stuff that our muscles and organs need. If your BG is already low, excess insulin will topple you into that hypoglycaemic state. One of the essential regulating mechanisms for turning up or down our natural insulin production comes from our pancreas in the form of a rarely mentioned hormone called somostatin; we're told no pancreas = no insulin, no digestive enzymes and possibly told no glucagon; we take measures to mitigate against those missing hormones. Intellectually I realised that I had to mentally and thus manually totally replicate all those missing hormones, but I didn't know the brain needed one's pancreas to do the practical regulatory work using somostatin from my non-existent pancreas.

T1s go through a transition of declining natural insulin production as their autoimmune condition progressively destroys that insulin making process and this transition can be irregular from possible surges of natural insulin. T1 BG management can be very confusing, particularly in their early years, with no way of knowing until after a day has passed whether their natural insulin has been even or irregular through any 24 hrs .​
Whereas we both now produce zero natural insulin; there is an advantage in that certainty - one confusion factor is eliminated. A 2nd advantage is that, as far as I know, we have no particular susceptibility to other autoimmune effects or considerations.​
Our T3c may be perceived as if it is T1 in its later stages, but it is also very different in origins. T1s unquestionably have their unique considerations. As we do with our different and abrupt start point.​

Firstly (and in my opinion most important for me) is your basal right? The Fundamental Principle is that if our basal (=background) insulin is not right then bolus is trying to compensate for that, which has a significant bearing on getting one's bolus ratios correct. Getting your basal right first is a key opening thing yo do and it may be the main reason why you're on the current roller-coaster

The profile of a basal such as Levermir is short enough to be administered 2 x daily; change of Levermir doses is practical from one day to the next and different doses for am and pm is appropriate to get one's basal closer to matching what your body is doing day and night. A disadvantage is that daily BG management is reviewing both bolus and basal. The mental juggling has unquestionably increased.​
Lantus = slower/longer profile. But it's profile is not quite covering 24 hrs and that profile is not totally even across those 20+ hrs. So timing of Lantus is relevant; where should the missing last 4 or so hours of Lantus be timed to end up? Eg Lantus at 8am and it is winding down c. 4am - just when either or both the Dawn Phenomena (DP) or Foot On The Floor (FOTF) are potentially kicking in.​
I am a big fan of Tresiba; it has a very long lasting profile, c. 40 hrs with an extremely even release during 37-38 of those 40 hrs. So today's dose is topping up yesterday's dose. This can be perceived as inflexible, changes of dose can take 3 days to have an effect. BUT my perspective is with the correct Tresiba basal dose there is a very stable platform for safe, level BG at nights; with only infrequent adjustments to Tresiba through any 12 month period. ALL other extraneous insulin comes from your easy changeable bolus, along with food and exercise/ activity. Whatever Tresiba is bringing to the daytime party is whatever it is; and it should not, must not, be added to the "thinking" (sometimes over-thinking).​

@rebrascora and @Wendal covered:
enough Creon?​
Libre limitations;​
treating hypos (including we're all different);​
effects of exercise/activity;​
general good BG management (with ref to trial and learning, a range of actions could be needed);​
some reassurance that there was a light at the end of the tunnel;​
try to pace yourself,​
tackle this marathon one bit at a time;​
make full use of the Libre Logbook (it is far superior to the Dexcom G7 for recording data)​
use the Libre alarms as alerts;​
and several other gems or gold nuggets in the responses generally.​

So lots to dig into there.

I had one extra thought - have the courage to lean on the trend projections from Libre. If you go hypo have you got the Alarm set at the top of its Low range and did you heed the 1st Alert? At the end of a day a hypo means you had too much insulin ion board. And you couldn't respond quickly enough. Can you retrospectively analyse how that occurred.

If you then go hyper did you overreact to that hypo and thus end up with too many carbs on board? Was there a lesson you could learn from that? Generally its very hard to break the hypo / hyper roller coaster and that instability breeds extra hypo/ hyper cycles.

Your reply to me today was overly flattering: I still sometimes feel like a Newbie; but my 1st year without any CGM made me determined to do better, once I saw a graphical display showing how erratic my BG Management actually was.
 
Hi and welcome.

Sorry you have to be here but so pleased you have found us as there is a huge wealth of knowledge and lived experience of all forms of diabetes hereon the forum and it is very comforting and reassuring as well as informative to compare notes with others and learn a few practical tips and strategies to help you manage things better..... and yes, it will get better and it can be quite a rollercoaster even for most of us who are Type 1 let alone complete pancy removal Type 3c which brings increased levels of complication.

Firstly and most importantly, are you on Creon or some other Pancreatic Enzyme Replacement Treatment (PERT)? If not then that may be a big part of your problem, but I find it hard to imagine you could go 9 weeks without it. If your body can't digest the carbs in your food because you don't have the enzymes to do so, then your food will release less glucose than it should and your NovoRapid doses will be wrong, causing hypos. In fact it may be that even if you are on Creon or other PERT that perhaps the doses of it are not correct, so unpredictable levels of glucose are being released from your food.

Great that you have Libre, but it is really important that you understand its quirks and limitations as that alone can lead you to over treat hypos and then end up high and once you are on that BG rollercoaster it is hard to get off and your levels swing up and down and that alone makes you feel rubbish and anxious and out of control.

The key things to know with Libre are that
1. They are susceptible to what we call "Compression Lows" where if you apply heavy pressure to the sensor like lying on it in bed during your sleep, it can cause a false low and alarm. If you get a low alarm anytime and you don't feel obviously hypo, double check it with a finger prick before treating. this leads onto the second point....
2. Never rely on Libre to check your recovery from a hypo because it will almost always lead to you over treating a hypo which will mean your levels then go far too high. After you have confirmed you are hypo with a finger prick and taken the appropriate 15g carbs (3 jelly babies or 4 glucose tablets or whatever your chosen treatment is) wait 15mins and then recheck with a finger prick. At this time, Libre will almost always show your levels have dropped lower which would tempt you to eat more fast acting carbs, when a finger prick will usually show your levels as coming back up and no more fast carbs are needed. This is due to the fact that Libre reads interstitial fluid rather than blood and is one of the few times when the algorithm used by Libre to try to make up the lag between blood glucose and interstitial fluid, fails quite significantly, because it continues to extrapolate the previous downward trend for about 20 mins after you take the hypo treatment and will not usually catch up to the real reading for about 30 mins, so finger pricking when treating a hypo is really important.

As regards hypo treatments, it is VERY EASY to over treat hypos, partly because you can feel ravenously hungry and partly out of panic because hypos are scary and partly because you perhaps haven't yet learned how much is enough.
The guidance for treating a hypo is 15g of fast acting carbs, wait 15 mins and retest (with a finger prick). If levels have come up above 4 you may then want to have 10-15g of slower acting carbs to help stabilize things, but if levels haven't come back up, you don't do that but take another 15g of fast acting carbs and keep retesting after 15 more mins until it does come back up above 4 and then have the slower carbs like a digestive biscuit or a slice of toast with peanut butter or whatever.
We are all different in how our bodies respond and gradually we have to work out the best strategy for our body. In my case 15g of fast acting carbs is usually too much and I only need 5 or 10 (1 or 2 jelly babies) depending upon how low I am and I almost never need the follow up slow acting carbs, but that is just what I have learned about my body from treating hypos and seeing that high rebound. What helped me was knowing that 5g of fast acting carbs raises my BG levels by about 1.5 mmols, so if I am on 3.5, 1JB will take me up to about 5mmols and 2 will get me to about 6.5, so unless I have got my carb calculations very wrong or done a lot of exercise, I don't need any more than that and if I took the full 3 JBs plus a biscuit I would be in double figures, so learning what my boduy needs to get me back to a nice mid range BG has been key and no nurse can tell you that, it is just what you gradually learn.

However preventing hypos is so much easier now we have Libre and other CGM so it might be worth setting your low alarm a bit higher to give you warning or an impending low, so that you can head it off at the pass. I believe the low alarm on Libre can be set as high as 5.6 and with you having no pancy that might be a good level to set it at least initially. I have my low level set at 4.5 and for my body I can still head off a hypo almost every time with a jelly baby or too even if it is dropping fast. If you have it set at 5.6, you don't need to act when it goes off, but monitor and take action if it continues to drop. Just a very small amount of carbs like a dried apricot, a single prune or a dried fig or date or half a digestive can just nudge it back up again. Having different amounts of carbs and slower or faster ones for different situations is key to this skill of preventing a hypo before it happens.

An important point to mention with regard to treating hypos and may be particularly pertinent with your total lack of pancy is that chewing very well or swilling your chosen hypo treatment around in your mouth will be more effective than a couple of chews and swallowing. There are enzymes in your mouth which can break down sugar into glucose and the cells inside you mouth (cheek walls and gums) are able to absorb the glucose and get it straight into your blood stream and of course your mouth is closer to the brain than your stomach, so getting as much absorption of the glucose in your mouth is really helpful in treating a hypo more speedily. Of course most people think that it needs to get to the stomach to be digested and particularly as hypos make you panic, you are usually inclined to have a couple of chews and swallow it down, but taking time to chew it well and move it around in your mouth before swallowing will have a more efficient and speedy recovery. For this reason, liquids like orange juice or full sugar coke can be faster than a solid treatment like JBs or tablets because they don't need chewing to release the glucose.

Final thing is that exercise can have a dramatic effect on BG levels, particularly in the first couple of hours after injecting bolus (meal time) insulin. and the effects of exercise can last for 48 hours, making you more sensitive to insulin and hence more prone to hypos. Exercise is not just running or playing sport or going to the gym though, it is any activity like walking and housework and gardening and other DIY jobs too, especially if the weather is hot. Learning how to adjust your insulin or BG levels for activity, be it planned or unplanned is an important skill to learn, but again, it is largely trial and error. My body is particularly prone to nocturnal hypos after I have had an exertive day, so I need to reduce my overnight basal (long acting) insulin if I have been very active and adjust it back up if I have been more sedentary. Other people have more problems with hypoing whilst they are active but not so sensitive through the night.

Good diabetes management is about doing lots of very careful experimentation on your self to see how your body responds to various situations, look for similar trends rather than assume a one off result is right and adjust your diabetes management to suit. Diabetes is highly individual and our lifestyles and menus are all different and only we live with our diabetes, so we have to become the expert by learning how our body responds. A nurse who sees us for half an hour twice a year or whatever really cannot know that we hypoed 3 weeks ago because we spent all day assembling and fitting some bedroom furniture or pruning our fruit trees or cutting the hedge or running around after grandchildren, so whilst they make a best guess on doses and insulin t carb ratios there are so many other things which can affect those results that they can only ever be a best guess by someone who wasn't living in our body that day or the previous day to know why it happened.

This may all sound really complicated but just like learning to drive a car, it gradually just becomes an automatic process for most of the everyday stuff, where you take into account multiple factors before you dial up and inject your insulin. Part of it becomes intuitive and part actual calculation and part of it is just winging it and being prepared for any scenario to keep yourself safe, particularly preventing and being prepared to treat hypos by having a graded response depending upon the circumstances, without over treating.

It still amazes me that 1 single jelly baby can make such a significant difference to my levels.... especially when I consider how many sweets I used to eat pre-diagnosis and how much insulin my body must have been producing to cover them.
The pancreas really is an amazing little organ and sadly, it is only when you have lost it or it isn't able to function properly and you have to take over that roll manually, that you truly appreciate just how amazing it was.
Barbara,
What a gem of a response. I feel that I have learned so much in a couple of minutes reading through it. You are all amazing in the help you give us newbies on this forum. I for one am exceedingly grateful. (I’m sure others are too) I really hope that one day if I have learned enough I can contribute to support others in the same way.
 
Hi I had my pancreas removed 9 weeks ago & it was because of a cyst on it that could have turned cancerous. I am 72 & have always been fit & slim but through the lead up to diagnosis & surgery I lost over 2 stones. I left hospital with only the lantus insulin & my wife had to wrangle with the gp & specialist diabetes nurses to get novorapid when I felt well enough to start eating again. From the beginning it has always been like a guessing game with the diabetes nurses as they have not encountered someone who has had their pancreas removed & type 3c diabetes before. I am back to wanting to eat like the old days & feeling fit enough to do my jobs in the house & garden but no one ever takes into account how I am with the guessing the units of insulin. I have a libre fitted & the nurses can see a clear picture of what’s happening with my readings but never seem to see that the novorapid seems to act too quickly so I end up having jelly babies & orange juice then the food & the “rescue sugar” kick in and my readings yo-yo to stupid high numbers. I just feel so alone in all of this… pure guesswork leading to highs & lows…. Will it always be like this?? Has anyone with this type of diabetes managed to get more stable??

Sorry ….I should have mentioned I do take Creon capsules….
Hi Ronnie
I just wanted to say hi from one newbie to another. I’m glad that you have found this forum and are getting some helpful advice. I completely understand you ‘feeling alone’. That has been my overwhelming feeling too in the last four months since my T1 diagnosis. (I don’t get to see a diabetic nurse for another month) but this forum does help. I’m too new to offer any practical advice but I wish you all the very best and hope that things gradually get easier.
 
Thank you for trying to help me…... I’m not doing too well with invitations anywhere!!! The best I can get is dsn’s who have not encountered anyone who’s had their pancreas removed. There is no diabetes dietitian or consultant to check me over…I live in Powys & it’s a bit like the dark ages sometimes!!
I'm in Dyfed so not dissimilar. Looking at the somewhat opaque website for the Health Board there is a team and they sound very similar to who I've been dealing with.


I've also had to adjust all my insulin doses as my appetite returns. The initial measurements where based on when I was in hospital and not eating much more than a couple of mouthfuls. As my appetite has returned my readings have become much more erratic. You're also recovering from major surgery so that's going to take its toll. I've been told to expect to be off work for 6-9 months so I'd imagine your recovery is similar and again that's throwing a lot more into the mix.
 
@Ronnie5cakes, I undertook to read all that you were told during Monday and add if there was something that occurred to me.

There is so much to get one's mind around: so many insulin types with different consequences; 42 recognised factors that can affect BG; is PERT providing full digestion? The consequence is that the "numbers" are our best attempt to make D management a science and in practice it is much more of an art. Throw into that mix that we all are different and one person's metabolic response to any one scenario could be very different to the next person - thus shared knowledge can help but might further confuse.

An observation about insulin, if I may. To our body insulin is just .... well ... insulin. Your body doesn't know if the insulin is natural or extraneous. It doesn't know that some clever engineering has made extraneous insulin to be rapid or slow release. Insulin as a hormone "facilitates" the movement of glucose out of your blood. If insulin is there in your blood your body will make use of it to draw glucose from your blood into your cells for repairing damaged cells, making new cells and generally doing all that good stuff that our muscles and organs need. If your BG is already low, excess insulin will topple you into that hypoglycaemic state. One of the essential regulating mechanisms for turning up or down our natural insulin production comes from our pancreas in the form of a rarely mentioned hormone called somostatin; we're told no pancreas = no insulin, no digestive enzymes and possibly told no glucagon; we take measures to mitigate against those missing hormones. Intellectually I realised that I had to mentally and thus manually totally replicate all those missing hormones, but I didn't know the brain needed one's pancreas to do the practical regulatory work using somostatin from my non-existent pancreas.

T1s go through a transition of declining natural insulin production as their autoimmune condition progressively destroys that insulin making process and this transition can be irregular from possible surges of natural insulin. T1 BG management can be very confusing, particularly in their early years, with no way of knowing until after a day has passed whether their natural insulin has been even or irregular through any 24 hrs .​
Whereas we both now produce zero natural insulin; there is an advantage in that certainty - one confusion factor is eliminated. A 2nd advantage is that, as far as I know, we have no particular susceptibility to other autoimmune effects or considerations.​
Our T3c may be perceived as if it is T1 in its later stages, but it is also very different in origins. T1s unquestionably have their unique considerations. As we do with our different and abrupt start point.​

Firstly (and in my opinion most important for me) is your basal right? The Fundamental Principle is that if our basal (=background) insulin is not right then bolus is trying to compensate for that, which has a significant bearing on getting one's bolus ratios correct. Getting your basal right first is a key opening thing yo do and it may be the main reason why you're on the current roller-coaster

The profile of a basal such as Levermir is short enough to be administered 2 x daily; change of Levermir doses is practical from one day to the next and different doses for am and pm is appropriate to get one's basal closer to matching what your body is doing day and night. A disadvantage is that daily BG management is reviewing both bolus and basal. The mental juggling has unquestionably increased.​
Lantus = slower/longer profile. But it's profile is not quite covering 24 hrs and that profile is not totally even across those 20+ hrs. So timing of Lantus is relevant; where should the missing last 4 or so hours of Lantus be timed to end up? Eg Lantus at 8am and it is winding down c. 4am - just when either or both the Dawn Phenomena (DP) or Foot On The Floor (FOTF) are potentially kicking in.​
I am a big fan of Tresiba; it has a very long lasting profile, c. 40 hrs with an extremely even release during 37-38 of those 40 hrs. So today's dose is topping up yesterday's dose. This can be perceived as inflexible, changes of dose can take 3 days to have an effect. BUT my perspective is with the correct Tresiba basal dose there is a very stable platform for safe, level BG at nights; with only infrequent adjustments to Tresiba through any 12 month period. ALL other extraneous insulin comes from your easy changeable bolus, along with food and exercise/ activity. Whatever Tresiba is bringing to the daytime party is whatever it is; and it should not, must not, be added to the "thinking" (sometimes over-thinking).​

@rebrascora and @Wendal covered:
enough Creon?​
Libre limitations;​
treating hypos (including we're all different);​
effects of exercise/activity;​
general good BG management (with ref to trial and learning, a range of actions could be needed);​
some reassurance that there was a light at the end of the tunnel;​
try to pace yourself,​
tackle this marathon one bit at a time;​
make full use of the Libre Logbook (it is far superior to the Dexcom G7 for recording data)​
use the Libre alarms as alerts;​
and several other gems or gold nuggets in the responses generally.​

So lots to dig into there.

I had one extra thought - have the courage to lean on the trend projections from Libre. If you go hypo have you got the Alarm set at the top of its Low range and did you heed the 1st Alert? At the end of a day a hypo means you had too much insulin ion board. And you couldn't respond quickly enough. Can you retrospectively analyse how that occurred.

If you then go hyper did you overreact to that hypo and thus end up with too many carbs on board? Was there a lesson you could learn from that? Generally its very hard to break the hypo / hyper roller coaster and that instability breeds extra hypo/ hyper cycles.

Your reply to me today was overly flattering: I still sometimes feel like a Newbie; but my 1st year without any CGM made me determined to do better, once I saw a graphical display showing how erratic my BG Management actually was.
Morning and an excellent post from Roland which espouses the thought process of “ Think like a pancreas” which covers many aspects of how best to manage diabetes.
I would like to overlay the additional consideration of how as individuals we deal with managing the condition in terms of our motivation,knowledge and sheer desire to live our lives in the way we want to encapsulated in Roland’s words of it is a marathon not a sprint.
As you will note from some of my other posts I can be quite disciplined and at first was quite rigid in terms of my diabetes management so achieved very good control in terms of numbers.
So again I endorse Roland’s view of the importance of the Libre numbers and trends as being crucial in helping us all manage the condition but personally I am very comfortable in terms of allowing myself little holidays from the intensity of managing the diabetes as I am confident that my overall numbers are OK and I enjoy the ” spontaneity “ of being in control rather than it controlling me and also I do get caught up in other stuff which takes my mind off concentrating on my diabetes.
Whilst I find many contributors great sources of info and experience it it’s important to me to distil these thoughts and apply them in the context of me as an individual rather than simply replicate them as being the answer to my challenges.
Another rambling post from me and I am much less structured than Roland so apologies for that but it us just the way my scrambled mind works.
 
@Ronnie5cakes - Lots of good stuff in this thread to which I can only make an off beat contribution and that is you have encapsulated the nub of things in the title of the thread...Its all guesswork!!

My niece is a Pharmacist and says that the difference between a good doctor and a poor doctor is that the good doctor is a better guesser. Given a bit of time, you and anyone else faced with readjusting their life to cope with T1 or 3c, will become a better guesser than any medic as far as your diabetes is concerned. After all you have got the inside knowledge to work with and so can make better bets than them.

So, listen to all the advice taking account of the fact that all of it will be guesswork. Look for the common themes, add to that what you find as you work towards finding a regime that suits you and so become a better guesser about your particular version of diabetes than anybody else.

PS... keep contributing to the forum and let us know how you get on. The forum thrives on sharing experiences and the more the better.
 
@Docb managing type 2 maybe guesswork but when it comes to managing Type 1 (and I assume Type 3c) there are rules and experience explained above which take away the majority of the guesswork.
I do not think suggesting "it is all guesswork" is very helpful, especially as it disagrees with the comments already given from people with the experience of managing diabetes with insulin.
 
@Ronnie5cakes, I undertook to read all that you were told during Monday and add if there was something that occurred to me.

There is so much to get one's mind around: so many insulin types with different consequences; 42 recognised factors that can affect BG; is PERT providing full digestion? The consequence is that the "numbers" are our best attempt to make D management a science and in practice it is much more of an art. Throw into that mix that we all are different and one person's metabolic response to any one scenario could be very different to the next person - thus shared knowledge can help but might further confuse.

An observation about insulin, if I may. To our body insulin is just .... well ... insulin. Your body doesn't know if the insulin is natural or extraneous. It doesn't know that some clever engineering has made extraneous insulin to be rapid or slow release. Insulin as a hormone "facilitates" the movement of glucose out of your blood. If insulin is there in your blood your body will make use of it to draw glucose from your blood into your cells for repairing damaged cells, making new cells and generally doing all that good stuff that our muscles and organs need. If your BG is already low, excess insulin will topple you into that hypoglycaemic state. One of the essential regulating mechanisms for turning up or down our natural insulin production comes from our pancreas in the form of a rarely mentioned hormone called somostatin; we're told no pancreas = no insulin, no digestive enzymes and possibly told no glucagon; we take measures to mitigate against those missing hormones. Intellectually I realised that I had to mentally and thus manually totally replicate all those missing hormones, but I didn't know the brain needed one's pancreas to do the practical regulatory work using somostatin from my non-existent pancreas.

T1s go through a transition of declining natural insulin production as their autoimmune condition progressively destroys that insulin making process and this transition can be irregular from possible surges of natural insulin. T1 BG management can be very confusing, particularly in their early years, with no way of knowing until after a day has passed whether their natural insulin has been even or irregular through any 24 hrs .​
Whereas we both now produce zero natural insulin; there is an advantage in that certainty - one confusion factor is eliminated. A 2nd advantage is that, as far as I know, we have no particular susceptibility to other autoimmune effects or considerations.​
Our T3c may be perceived as if it is T1 in its later stages, but it is also very different in origins. T1s unquestionably have their unique considerations. As we do with our different and abrupt start point.​

Firstly (and in my opinion most important for me) is your basal right? The Fundamental Principle is that if our basal (=background) insulin is not right then bolus is trying to compensate for that, which has a significant bearing on getting one's bolus ratios correct. Getting your basal right first is a key opening thing yo do and it may be the main reason why you're on the current roller-coaster

The profile of a basal such as Levermir is short enough to be administered 2 x daily; change of Levermir doses is practical from one day to the next and different doses for am and pm is appropriate to get one's basal closer to matching what your body is doing day and night. A disadvantage is that daily BG management is reviewing both bolus and basal. The mental juggling has unquestionably increased.​
Lantus = slower/longer profile. But it's profile is not quite covering 24 hrs and that profile is not totally even across those 20+ hrs. So timing of Lantus is relevant; where should the missing last 4 or so hours of Lantus be timed to end up? Eg Lantus at 8am and it is winding down c. 4am - just when either or both the Dawn Phenomena (DP) or Foot On The Floor (FOTF) are potentially kicking in.​
I am a big fan of Tresiba; it has a very long lasting profile, c. 40 hrs with an extremely even release during 37-38 of those 40 hrs. So today's dose is topping up yesterday's dose. This can be perceived as inflexible, changes of dose can take 3 days to have an effect. BUT my perspective is with the correct Tresiba basal dose there is a very stable platform for safe, level BG at nights; with only infrequent adjustments to Tresiba through any 12 month period. ALL other extraneous insulin comes from your easy changeable bolus, along with food and exercise/ activity. Whatever Tresiba is bringing to the daytime party is whatever it is; and it should not, must not, be added to the "thinking" (sometimes over-thinking).​

@rebrascora and @Wendal covered:
enough Creon?​
Libre limitations;​
treating hypos (including we're all different);​
effects of exercise/activity;​
general good BG management (with ref to trial and learning, a range of actions could be needed);​
some reassurance that there was a light at the end of the tunnel;​
try to pace yourself,​
tackle this marathon one bit at a time;​
make full use of the Libre Logbook (it is far superior to the Dexcom G7 for recording data)​
use the Libre alarms as alerts;​
and several other gems or gold nuggets in the responses generally.​

So lots to dig into there.

I had one extra thought - have the courage to lean on the trend projections from Libre. If you go hypo have you got the Alarm set at the top of its Low range and did you heed the 1st Alert? At the end of a day a hypo means you had too much insulin ion board. And you couldn't respond quickly enough. Can you retrospectively analyse how that occurred.

If you then go hyper did you overreact to that hypo and thus end up with too many carbs on board? Was there a lesson you could learn from that? Generally its very hard to break the hypo / hyper roller coaster and that instability breeds extra hypo/ hyper cycles.

Your reply to me today was overly flattering: I still sometimes feel like a Newbie; but my 1st year without any CGM made me determined to do better, once I saw a graphical display showing how erratic my BG Management actually was.
Thank you again for trying to help me…. You & others here have given me a brilliant insight into your ways of managing & understanding this new unexpected way of life to me. I am so grateful you have taken the time & trouble to analyse what info has been already provided & you have managed to add more useful stuff. Really appreciate it all.
 
Hi Ronnie
I just wanted to say hi from one newbie to another. I’m glad that you have found this forum and are getting some helpful advice. I completely understand you ‘feeling alone’. That has been my overwhelming feeling too in the last four months since my T1 diagnosis. (I don’t get to see a diabetic nurse for another month) but this forum does help. I’m too new to offer any practical advice but I wish you all the very best and hope that things gradually get easier.
Thank you for getting in touch…. Good luck to you on your journey…. It’s still all mind blowing in these early days isn’t it. My friends are always so surprised when I try to explain how D affects everything … it’s definitely every day is a school day!
 
@Docb managing type 2 maybe guesswork but when it comes to managing Type 1 (and I assume Type 3c) there are rules and experience explained above which take away the majority of the guesswork.
I do not think suggesting "it is all guesswork" is very helpful, especially as it disagrees with the comments already given from people with the experience of managing diabetes with insulin.
What amazing responses from you all to the OP. I'm sure they will help.
There have been so many amazing responses & they are definitely all helpful….its great to know there are such helpful, caring people here.
 
@Docb managing type 2 maybe guesswork but when it comes to managing Type 1 (and I assume Type 3c) there are rules and experience explained above which take away the majority of the guesswork.
I do not think suggesting "it is all guesswork" is very helpful, especially as it disagrees with the comments already given from people with the experience of managing diabetes with insulin.
I think "educated guessing" is probably more appropriate. Whilst there are some things we can calculate to a limited extent based on limited data there are plenty of things like exercise that we can't calculate and are just intuitive based on past experience and some things that we can't even know are going to factor into our calculations at all like a developing illness.

I have no problem with @Docb's post. I am getting reasonably good at educated guessing, but like your dislike of the word control, I don't see my diabetes as calculatable. We have a lot of very approximate things to take into consideration. When I get a really great result I want to take credit for it but in reality it is just the luck of the draw that my guess that day was a better one.

I don't think @Docb in any way meant to undermine how much of a mental strain the carb counting and ratio applying and deducting or adding of units or partial units for exercise or corrections and all the other factors and decisions we make every single day about every aspect of our lives and how our insulin might impact that, but I am very comfortable that my daily decisions are very much educated guesses and I am far better placed to make them than any doctor or nurse who doesn't live in my shoes.
 
I think "educated guessing" is probably more appropriate. Whilst there are some things we can calculate to a limited extent based on limited data there are plenty of things like exercise that we can't calculate and are just intuitive based on past experience and some things that we can't even know are going to factor into our calculations at all like a developing illness.

I have no problem with @Docb's post. I am getting reasonably good at educated guessing, but like your dislike of the word control, I don't see my diabetes as calculatable. We have a lot of very approximate things to take into consideration. When I get a really great result I want to take credit for it but in reality it is just the luck of the draw that my guess that day was a better one.

I don't think @Docb in any way meant to undermine how much of a mental strain the carb counting and ratio applying and deducting or adding of units or partial units for exercise or corrections and all the other factors and decisions we make every single day about every aspect of our lives and how our insulin might impact that, but I am very comfortable that my daily decisions are very much educated guesses and I am far better placed to make them than any doctor or nurse who doesn't live in my shoes.
Thank you again for trying to help…. My original “it’s all guesswork” was & still is referring to the DSN’s who have no idea how much I eat or what I do in a day… (I do fill in the info on comments on the libre but I’ve not been taught to count carbs so it’s just words..not amounts) My wife & I work as a team on learning this new life… & all the info here has been really helpful… We have adjusted the Lantus up to 14 & that seems to be helping… Next step is to try & reduce my carbs at breakfast.. see if we can start the day a bit more on a level playing field….
 
@Docb managing type 2 maybe guesswork but when it comes to managing Type 1 (and I assume Type 3c) there are rules and experience explained above which take away the majority of the guesswork.
I do not think suggesting "it is all guesswork" is very helpful, especially as it disagrees with the comments already given from people with the experience of managing diabetes with insulin.

@helli You have a good point and @rebrascora is quite right in her interpretation of my comment. I confess I might have been a bit loose in my use of the term "guess" when referring to the uncertainty which has to be dealt with when making insulin dosing decisions, but I was trying to put forward the idea that the most educated guesses are made by the individual when they have got a better handle how their diabetes behaves. Just as Rebrescora suggests.

As a T2 I have nothing but admiration for all those on the forum who cope with a non or barely functioning pancreas. Each seems to find a way to fine tune the general principles to suit their version if diabetes and this can only come with experience. I have no doubt that @Ronnie5cakes will go through the same process and my thoughts were aimed at encouraging him to persevere until he gets it worked out and becomes a far better "guesser" when it comes to his diabetes than the pros.
 
@helli You have a good point and @rebrascora is quite right in her interpretation of my comment. I confess I might have been a bit loose in my use of the term "guess" when referring to the uncertainty which has to be dealt with when making insulin dosing decisions, but I was trying to put forward the idea that the most educated guesses are made by the individual when they have got a better handle how their diabetes behaves. Just as Rebrescora suggests.

As a T2 I have nothing but admiration for all those on the forum who cope with a non or barely functioning pancreas. Each seems to find a way to fine tune the general principles to suit their version if diabetes and this can only come with experience. I have no doubt that @Ronnie5cakes will go through the same process and my thoughts were aimed at encouraging him to persevere until he gets it worked out and becomes a far better "guesser" when it comes to his diabetes than the pros.
It all makes me appreciate how wonderful my pancreas was when it was working!!
I watch my wife eat & drink all manner of things which are now taboo to me…& marvel at how most people can do just that! Happy Days!
 
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