It’s all guesswork!!

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Ronnie5cakes

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Type 3c
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Hi I had my pancreas removed 9 weeks ago & it was because of a cyst on it that could have turned cancerous. I am 72 & have always been fit & slim but through the lead up to diagnosis & surgery I lost over 2 stones. I left hospital with only the lantus insulin & my wife had to wrangle with the gp & specialist diabetes nurses to get novorapid when I felt well enough to start eating again. From the beginning it has always been like a guessing game with the diabetes nurses as they have not encountered someone who has had their pancreas removed & type 3c diabetes before. I am back to wanting to eat like the old days & feeling fit enough to do my jobs in the house & garden but no one ever takes into account how I am with the guessing the units of insulin. I have a libre fitted & the nurses can see a clear picture of what’s happening with my readings but never seem to see that the novorapid seems to act too quickly so I end up having jelly babies & orange juice then the food & the “rescue sugar” kick in and my readings yo-yo to stupid high numbers. I just feel so alone in all of this… pure guesswork leading to highs & lows…. Will it always be like this?? Has anyone with this type of diabetes managed to get more stable??

Sorry ….I should have mentioned I do take Creon capsules….
 
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Hi Ronnie - I don't have 3c, just an ordinary Type 1 but am concerned hearing what you say about difficulty matching Novorapid to carbs 'always'. Were you using insulin before your operation, so had diabetes anyway before the cyst?
 
Hi I had my pancreas removed 9 weeks ago & it was because of a cyst on it that could have turned cancerous. I am 72 & have always been fit & slim but through the lead up to diagnosis & surgery I lost over 2 stones. I left hospital with only the lantus insulin & my wife had to wrangle with the gp & specialist diabetes nurses to get novorapid when I felt well enough to start eating again. From the beginning it has always been like a guessing game with the diabetes nurses as they have not encountered someone who has had their pancreas removed & type 3c diabetes before. I am back to wanting to eat like the old days & feeling fit enough to do my jobs in the house & garden but no one ever takes into account how I am with the guessing the units of insulin. I have a libre fitted & the nurses can see a clear picture of what’s happening with my readings but never seem to see that the novorapid seems to act too quickly so I end up having jelly babies & orange juice then the food & the “rescue sugar” kick in and my readings yo-yo to stupid high numbers. I just feel so alone in all of this… pure guesswork leading to highs & lows…. Will it always be like this?? Has anyone with this type of diabetes managed to get more stable??
Are you also taking Creon or similar as if not it may be impacting on your digestion of foods which will complicate things.
Many Type3cs here who hopefully will be along to give some words of wisdom.
 
Hi Ronnie,
Welcome to the forum and sorry for what you have been through and sure Roland ( Proud to be erratic) and others will be along at some stage and we have a mixture of those that have have their pancreas removed and some like me who have had necrotising pancreatitis so do retain some if limited pancreatic function.
I can certainly say for me and others you will be able to essentially lead a normal life with the addition of Creon and/ or insulin other medications to basically replace the action of your exocrine and endocrine cells.
Once you are more familiar with how your body responds you should be able to get really good control and get yourself stable.
Am not saying it is always easy and it will require discipline and you will face challenges but I can promise that you should be able to more or less eat what you want and live a normal life ( just with the slight modifications in terms of medication).
It is different without any functioning pancreas but I can assure you that I can do all the things in my pre diagnosis life apart from I don’t drink alcohol anymore.
 
Hi and welcome.

Sorry you have to be here but so pleased you have found us as there is a huge wealth of knowledge and lived experience of all forms of diabetes hereon the forum and it is very comforting and reassuring as well as informative to compare notes with others and learn a few practical tips and strategies to help you manage things better..... and yes, it will get better and it can be quite a rollercoaster even for most of us who are Type 1 let alone complete pancy removal Type 3c which brings increased levels of complication.

Firstly and most importantly, are you on Creon or some other Pancreatic Enzyme Replacement Treatment (PERT)? If not then that may be a big part of your problem, but I find it hard to imagine you could go 9 weeks without it. If your body can't digest the carbs in your food because you don't have the enzymes to do so, then your food will release less glucose than it should and your NovoRapid doses will be wrong, causing hypos. In fact it may be that even if you are on Creon or other PERT that perhaps the doses of it are not correct, so unpredictable levels of glucose are being released from your food.

Great that you have Libre, but it is really important that you understand its quirks and limitations as that alone can lead you to over treat hypos and then end up high and once you are on that BG rollercoaster it is hard to get off and your levels swing up and down and that alone makes you feel rubbish and anxious and out of control.

The key things to know with Libre are that
1. They are susceptible to what we call "Compression Lows" where if you apply heavy pressure to the sensor like lying on it in bed during your sleep, it can cause a false low and alarm. If you get a low alarm anytime and you don't feel obviously hypo, double check it with a finger prick before treating. this leads onto the second point....
2. Never rely on Libre to check your recovery from a hypo because it will almost always lead to you over treating a hypo which will mean your levels then go far too high. After you have confirmed you are hypo with a finger prick and taken the appropriate 15g carbs (3 jelly babies or 4 glucose tablets or whatever your chosen treatment is) wait 15mins and then recheck with a finger prick. At this time, Libre will almost always show your levels have dropped lower which would tempt you to eat more fast acting carbs, when a finger prick will usually show your levels as coming back up and no more fast carbs are needed. This is due to the fact that Libre reads interstitial fluid rather than blood and is one of the few times when the algorithm used by Libre to try to make up the lag between blood glucose and interstitial fluid, fails quite significantly, because it continues to extrapolate the previous downward trend for about 20 mins after you take the hypo treatment and will not usually catch up to the real reading for about 30 mins, so finger pricking when treating a hypo is really important.

As regards hypo treatments, it is VERY EASY to over treat hypos, partly because you can feel ravenously hungry and partly out of panic because hypos are scary and partly because you perhaps haven't yet learned how much is enough.
The guidance for treating a hypo is 15g of fast acting carbs, wait 15 mins and retest (with a finger prick). If levels have come up above 4 you may then want to have 10-15g of slower acting carbs to help stabilize things, but if levels haven't come back up, you don't do that but take another 15g of fast acting carbs and keep retesting after 15 more mins until it does come back up above 4 and then have the slower carbs like a digestive biscuit or a slice of toast with peanut butter or whatever.
We are all different in how our bodies respond and gradually we have to work out the best strategy for our body. In my case 15g of fast acting carbs is usually too much and I only need 5 or 10 (1 or 2 jelly babies) depending upon how low I am and I almost never need the follow up slow acting carbs, but that is just what I have learned about my body from treating hypos and seeing that high rebound. What helped me was knowing that 5g of fast acting carbs raises my BG levels by about 1.5 mmols, so if I am on 3.5, 1JB will take me up to about 5mmols and 2 will get me to about 6.5, so unless I have got my carb calculations very wrong or done a lot of exercise, I don't need any more than that and if I took the full 3 JBs plus a biscuit I would be in double figures, so learning what my boduy needs to get me back to a nice mid range BG has been key and no nurse can tell you that, it is just what you gradually learn.

However preventing hypos is so much easier now we have Libre and other CGM so it might be worth setting your low alarm a bit higher to give you warning or an impending low, so that you can head it off at the pass. I believe the low alarm on Libre can be set as high as 5.6 and with you having no pancy that might be a good level to set it at least initially. I have my low level set at 4.5 and for my body I can still head off a hypo almost every time with a jelly baby or too even if it is dropping fast. If you have it set at 5.6, you don't need to act when it goes off, but monitor and take action if it continues to drop. Just a very small amount of carbs like a dried apricot, a single prune or a dried fig or date or half a digestive can just nudge it back up again. Having different amounts of carbs and slower or faster ones for different situations is key to this skill of preventing a hypo before it happens.

An important point to mention with regard to treating hypos and may be particularly pertinent with your total lack of pancy is that chewing very well or swilling your chosen hypo treatment around in your mouth will be more effective than a couple of chews and swallowing. There are enzymes in your mouth which can break down sugar into glucose and the cells inside you mouth (cheek walls and gums) are able to absorb the glucose and get it straight into your blood stream and of course your mouth is closer to the brain than your stomach, so getting as much absorption of the glucose in your mouth is really helpful in treating a hypo more speedily. Of course most people think that it needs to get to the stomach to be digested and particularly as hypos make you panic, you are usually inclined to have a couple of chews and swallow it down, but taking time to chew it well and move it around in your mouth before swallowing will have a more efficient and speedy recovery. For this reason, liquids like orange juice or full sugar coke can be faster than a solid treatment like JBs or tablets because they don't need chewing to release the glucose.

Final thing is that exercise can have a dramatic effect on BG levels, particularly in the first couple of hours after injecting bolus (meal time) insulin. and the effects of exercise can last for 48 hours, making you more sensitive to insulin and hence more prone to hypos. Exercise is not just running or playing sport or going to the gym though, it is any activity like walking and housework and gardening and other DIY jobs too, especially if the weather is hot. Learning how to adjust your insulin or BG levels for activity, be it planned or unplanned is an important skill to learn, but again, it is largely trial and error. My body is particularly prone to nocturnal hypos after I have had an exertive day, so I need to reduce my overnight basal (long acting) insulin if I have been very active and adjust it back up if I have been more sedentary. Other people have more problems with hypoing whilst they are active but not so sensitive through the night.

Good diabetes management is about doing lots of very careful experimentation on your self to see how your body responds to various situations, look for similar trends rather than assume a one off result is right and adjust your diabetes management to suit. Diabetes is highly individual and our lifestyles and menus are all different and only we live with our diabetes, so we have to become the expert by learning how our body responds. A nurse who sees us for half an hour twice a year or whatever really cannot know that we hypoed 3 weeks ago because we spent all day assembling and fitting some bedroom furniture or pruning our fruit trees or cutting the hedge or running around after grandchildren, so whilst they make a best guess on doses and insulin t carb ratios there are so many other things which can affect those results that they can only ever be a best guess by someone who wasn't living in our body that day or the previous day to know why it happened.

This may all sound really complicated but just like learning to drive a car, it gradually just becomes an automatic process for most of the everyday stuff, where you take into account multiple factors before you dial up and inject your insulin. Part of it becomes intuitive and part actual calculation and part of it is just winging it and being prepared for any scenario to keep yourself safe, particularly preventing and being prepared to treat hypos by having a graded response depending upon the circumstances, without over treating.

It still amazes me that 1 single jelly baby can make such a significant difference to my levels.... especially when I consider how many sweets I used to eat pre-diagnosis and how much insulin my body must have been producing to cover them.
The pancreas really is an amazing little organ and sadly, it is only when you have lost it or it isn't able to function properly and you have to take over that roll manually, that you truly appreciate just how amazing it was.
 
If you are always/frequently hypoing after injecting NR, perhaps you need to inject slightly later? How long before eating are you injecting?
 
If you are always/frequently hypoing after injecting NR, perhaps you need to inject slightly later? How long before eating are you injecting?
I was thinking the same thing.
I was also wondering whether the highs @Ronnie5cakes is experiencing is because he has calculated his bolus for the meal which is approximately what his body needs but then he has more carbs to treat the hypo resulting in the insulin needing to work with more carbs. In normal circumstances, I would definitely not bolus for hypo treatment but if one occurs because the insulin works faster than the food, the hypo treatment is "using up" some of this bolus.
I am not sure if that is clear. It is not easy to explain.
 
Hi Ronnie - I don't have 3c, just an ordinary Type 1 but am concerned hearing what you say about difficulty matching Novorapid to carbs 'always'. Were you using insulin before your operation, so had diabetes anyway before the cyst?
Thank you for trying to help me….I wasn’t diabetic before surgery to remove my pancreas…
No one has really given me a lesson on how to manage diabetes…I’m just instructed by nurse via a phone call..(which to be fair has been very regular, every week…) of what figures to adjust the insulin based on the readings they see from Libre…no one asks how active I am…if I have lost or gained weight… how much I’m actually eating…
I find it all really frustrating
 
Are you also taking Creon or similar as if not it may be impacting on your digestion of foods which will complicate things.
Many Type3cs here who hopefully will be along to give some words of wisdom.
Thank you for trying to help me….. I am taking Creon….I should have mentioned that
 
Hi Ronnie,
Welcome to the forum and sorry for what you have been through and sure Roland ( Proud to be erratic) and others will be along at some stage and we have a mixture of those that have have their pancreas removed and some like me who have had necrotising pancreatitis so do retain some if limited pancreatic function.
I can certainly say for me and others you will be able to essentially lead a normal life with the addition of Creon and/ or insulin other medications to basically replace the action of your exocrine and endocrine cells.
Once you are more familiar with how your body responds you should be able to get really good control and get yourself stable.
Am not saying it is always easy and it will require discipline and you will face challenges but I can promise that you should be able to more or less eat what you want and live a normal life ( just with the slight modifications in terms of medication).
It is different without any functioning pancreas but I can assure you that I can do all the things in my pre diagnosis life apart from I don’t drink alcohol anymore.
Hi Ronnie,
Welcome to the forum and sorry for what you have been through and sure Roland ( Proud to be erratic) and others will be along at some stage and we have a mixture of those that have have their pancreas removed and some like me who have had necrotising pancreatitis so do retain some if limited pancreatic function.
I can certainly say for me and others you will be able to essentially lead a normal life with the addition of Creon and/ or insulin other medications to basically replace the action of your exocrine and endocrine cells.
Once you are more familiar with how your body responds you should be able to get really good control and get yourself stable.
Am not saying it is always easy and it will require discipline and you will face challenges but I can promise that you should be able to more or less eat what you want and live a normal life ( just with the slight modifications in terms of medication).
It is different without any functioning pancreas but I can assure you that I can do all the things in my pre diagnosis life apart from I don’t drink alcohol anymore.
Thank you for trying to help me….. I am thrilled to hear from you that life will get more normal as I learn…. & work with the medication..it’s been a horrible rollercoaster for me & my wife.
 
Hi and welcome.

Sorry you have to be here but so pleased you have found us as there is a huge wealth of knowledge and lived experience of all forms of diabetes hereon the forum and it is very comforting and reassuring as well as informative to compare notes with others and learn a few practical tips and strategies to help you manage things better..... and yes, it will get better and it can be quite a rollercoaster even for most of us who are Type 1 let alone complete pancy removal Type 3c which brings increased levels of complication.

Firstly and most importantly, are you on Creon or some other Pancreatic Enzyme Replacement Treatment (PERT)? If not then that may be a big part of your problem, but I find it hard to imagine you could go 9 weeks without it. If your body can't digest the carbs in your food because you don't have the enzymes to do so, then your food will release less glucose than it should and your NovoRapid doses will be wrong, causing hypos. In fact it may be that even if you are on Creon or other PERT that perhaps the doses of it are not correct, so unpredictable levels of glucose are being released from your food.

Great that you have Libre, but it is really important that you understand its quirks and limitations as that alone can lead you to over treat hypos and then end up high and once you are on that BG rollercoaster it is hard to get off and your levels swing up and down and that alone makes you feel rubbish and anxious and out of control.

The key things to know with Libre are that
1. They are susceptible to what we call "Compression Lows" where if you apply heavy pressure to the sensor like lying on it in bed during your sleep, it can cause a false low and alarm. If you get a low alarm anytime and you don't feel obviously hypo, double check it with a finger prick before treating. this leads onto the second point....
2. Never rely on Libre to check your recovery from a hypo because it will almost always lead to you over treating a hypo which will mean your levels then go far too high. After you have confirmed you are hypo with a finger prick and taken the appropriate 15g carbs (3 jelly babies or 4 glucose tablets or whatever your chosen treatment is) wait 15mins and then recheck with a finger prick. At this time, Libre will almost always show your levels have dropped lower which would tempt you to eat more fast acting carbs, when a finger prick will usually show your levels as coming back up and no more fast carbs are needed. This is due to the fact that Libre reads interstitial fluid rather than blood and is one of the few times when the algorithm used by Libre to try to make up the lag between blood glucose and interstitial fluid, fails quite significantly, because it continues to extrapolate the previous downward trend for about 20 mins after you take the hypo treatment and will not usually catch up to the real reading for about 30 mins, so finger pricking when treating a hypo is really important.

As regards hypo treatments, it is VERY EASY to over treat hypos, partly because you can feel ravenously hungry and partly out of panic because hypos are scary and partly because you perhaps haven't yet learned how much is enough.
The guidance for treating a hypo is 15g of fast acting carbs, wait 15 mins and retest (with a finger prick). If levels have come up above 4 you may then want to have 10-15g of slower acting carbs to help stabilize things, but if levels haven't come back up, you don't do that but take another 15g of fast acting carbs and keep retesting after 15 more mins until it does come back up above 4 and then have the slower carbs like a digestive biscuit or a slice of toast with peanut butter or whatever.
We are all different in how our bodies respond and gradually we have to work out the best strategy for our body. In my case 15g of fast acting carbs is usually too much and I only need 5 or 10 (1 or 2 jelly babies) depending upon how low I am and I almost never need the follow up slow acting carbs, but that is just what I have learned about my body from treating hypos and seeing that high rebound. What helped me was knowing that 5g of fast acting carbs raises my BG levels by about 1.5 mmols, so if I am on 3.5, 1JB will take me up to about 5mmols and 2 will get me to about 6.5, so unless I have got my carb calculations very wrong or done a lot of exercise, I don't need any more than that and if I took the full 3 JBs plus a biscuit I would be in double figures, so learning what my boduy needs to get me back to a nice mid range BG has been key and no nurse can tell you that, it is just what you gradually learn.

However preventing hypos is so much easier now we have Libre and other CGM so it might be worth setting your low alarm a bit higher to give you warning or an impending low, so that you can head it off at the pass. I believe the low alarm on Libre can be set as high as 5.6 and with you having no pancy that might be a good level to set it at least initially. I have my low level set at 4.5 and for my body I can still head off a hypo almost every time with a jelly baby or too even if it is dropping fast. If you have it set at 5.6, you don't need to act when it goes off, but monitor and take action if it continues to drop. Just a very small amount of carbs like a dried apricot, a single prune or a dried fig or date or half a digestive can just nudge it back up again. Having different amounts of carbs and slower or faster ones for different situations is key to this skill of preventing a hypo before it happens.

An important point to mention with regard to treating hypos and may be particularly pertinent with your total lack of pancy is that chewing very well or swilling your chosen hypo treatment around in your mouth will be more effective than a couple of chews and swallowing. There are enzymes in your mouth which can break down sugar into glucose and the cells inside you mouth (cheek walls and gums) are able to absorb the glucose and get it straight into your blood stream and of course your mouth is closer to the brain than your stomach, so getting as much absorption of the glucose in your mouth is really helpful in treating a hypo more speedily. Of course most people think that it needs to get to the stomach to be digested and particularly as hypos make you panic, you are usually inclined to have a couple of chews and swallow it down, but taking time to chew it well and move it around in your mouth before swallowing will have a more efficient and speedy recovery. For this reason, liquids like orange juice or full sugar coke can be faster than a solid treatment like JBs or tablets because they don't need chewing to release the glucose.

Final thing is that exercise can have a dramatic effect on BG levels, particularly in the first couple of hours after injecting bolus (meal time) insulin. and the effects of exercise can last for 48 hours, making you more sensitive to insulin and hence more prone to hypos. Exercise is not just running or playing sport or going to the gym though, it is any activity like walking and housework and gardening and other DIY jobs too, especially if the weather is hot. Learning how to adjust your insulin or BG levels for activity, be it planned or unplanned is an important skill to learn, but again, it is largely trial and error. My body is particularly prone to nocturnal hypos after I have had an exertive day, so I need to reduce my overnight basal (long acting) insulin if I have been very active and adjust it back up if I have been more sedentary. Other people have more problems with hypoing whilst they are active but not so sensitive through the night.

Good diabetes management is about doing lots of very careful experimentation on your self to see how your body responds to various situations, look for similar trends rather than assume a one off result is right and adjust your diabetes management to suit. Diabetes is highly individual and our lifestyles and menus are all different and only we live with our diabetes, so we have to become the expert by learning how our body responds. A nurse who sees us for half an hour twice a year or whatever really cannot know that we hypoed 3 weeks ago because we spent all day assembling and fitting some bedroom furniture or pruning our fruit trees or cutting the hedge or running around after grandchildren, so whilst they make a best guess on doses and insulin t carb ratios there are so many other things which can affect those results that they can only ever be a best guess by someone who wasn't living in our body that day or the previous day to know why it happened.

This may all sound really complicated but just like learning to drive a car, it gradually just becomes an automatic process for most of the everyday stuff, where you take into account multiple factors before you dial up and inject your insulin. Part of it becomes intuitive and part actual calculation and part of it is just winging it and being prepared for any scenario to keep yourself safe, particularly preventing and being prepared to treat hypos by having a graded response depending upon the circumstances, without over treating.

It still amazes me that 1 single jelly baby can make such a significant difference to my levels.... especially when I consider how many sweets I used to eat pre-diagnosis and how much insulin my body must have been producing to cover them.
The pancreas really is an amazing little organ and sadly, it is only when you have lost it or it isn't able to function properly and you have to take over that roll manually, that you truly appreciate just how amazing it was.
Thank you so much for replying to me & all the really useful info you have taken the time to share with me. I have probably learned more about the Libre quirks & hypos from you than I have previously known about the whole topic of diabetes!! Thank you…there’s a lot of great info there for me to definitely take onboard & use going forward.

I do take creon..I should have mentioned that in my original post.
Now instead of injecting insulin 15 minutes before eating, ive been advised to inject the novorapid at the time I start to eat… but it’s definitely all guesswork of the amounts by the nurses…. every week the long lasting & fast acting amounts are tweaked….however there are still really erratic readings of glucose.

Thank you again….I’m going to reread everything to make sure I’ve got all your info.
 
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Now instead of injecting insulin 15 minutes before eating, ive been advised to inject the novorapid at the time I start to eat… but it’s definitely all guesswork of the amounts by the nurses…. every week the long lasting & fast acting amounts are tweaked….however there are still really erratic readings of glucose.
I don't think of it as guesswork but more about learning as we go because we are all different.
There are so many quirks and tweaks about managing diabetes and the learning never seems to stop.
Over time we start to learn for ourselves about when to inject. The 15 minutes before eating is based upon how long NovoRapid takes to start working and the speed at which we digest food but there are many variables which can affect this such as the speed at which different foods are converted to glucose in our blood (fat slows it down) and what else is going on that can affect our BG. This infographic lists 42 factors which can affect it.
I am not suggesting you need to learn all of these on day 1. I am sharing to help explain why it is not that simple.

I think I was lucky to be diagnosed before CGMs became common so I didn't have the knowledge about spikes after eating to stress about on top of everything else. It was easier just to care about my BG when I next ate and the occasional hypo.
 
I don't think of it as guesswork but more about learning as we go because we are all different.
There are so many quirks and tweaks about managing diabetes and the learning never seems to stop.
Over time we start to learn for ourselves about when to inject. The 15 minutes before eating is based upon how long NovoRapid takes to start working and the speed at which we digest food but there are many variables which can affect this such as the speed at which different foods are converted to glucose in our blood (fat slows it down) and what else is going on that can affect our BG. This infographic lists 42 factors which can affect it.
I am not suggesting you need to learn all of these on day 1. I am sharing to help explain why it is not that simple.

I think I was lucky to be diagnosed before CGMs became common so I didn't have the knowledge about spikes after eating to stress about on top of everything else. It was easier just to care about my BG when I next ate and the occasional hypo.
Ahhh thank you…you have put a different spin on it for me…..
It’s the nurses who are doing all the calculations at present…. & it’s a bit like think of a number…I just wish they would appreciate I’m eating well again now & back to wanting to do more…it’s been 9 weeks since my surgery but they have never seemed to take all that into account…
 
Thank you for trying to help me….. I am thrilled to hear from you that life will get more normal as I learn…. & work with the medication..it’s been a horrible rollercoaster for me & my wife.
Hi Ronnie,
Sone really good suggestions from folk and the word normally associated with the diabetes diagnosis is overwhelming so it does take time to get to grips with some of the implications.
You may find it worthwhile just focusing one bit at a time rather than trying to manage the whole daily routine.
So for eg focus on getting your basal right so your Lantus level so that you can try and achieve a relatively flat/ less volatile trend overnight.
If you can avoid eating late then by the time you go to bed any bolus insulin ( your Novo Rapid) which last 4-5 hours should have run its course so one less variable to consider.
Then when you have got that stable perhaps focus on your most regular meal of the day which for most of us is breakfast so try experimenting in terms of how much NR and the timing to try and get a “ stable” level of control ,then focus on lunch and then your evening meal.
Then try and put it all together but do not expect miracles as there many other things you need to factor in like exercise etc.
Use your Libre to note your readings pre and post meal and record them and look for patterns relating to particular meals.
You can then look at things like carb counting etc but that is for the future.
Also consider setting your Libre alert higher to forewarn you of a downward trend so you can act quicker as you are more likely not to overreact by taking on too many fast acting carbs.
In time you will gain more experience and confidence in managing your situation.
One other thing to note is having Tyoe 3c and no pancreas means you effectively have no Beta cells which regulate the insulin but also no Alpha cells which regulate Glucagon and that can lead to a more brittle(unpredictable type of diabetes).
Good luck
 
Hi Ronnie,
Sone really good suggestions from folk and the word normally associated with the diabetes diagnosis is overwhelming so it does take time to get to grips with some of the implications.
You may find it worthwhile just focusing one bit at a time rather than trying to manage the whole daily routine.
So for eg focus on getting your basal right so your Lantus level so that you can try and achieve a relatively flat/ less volatile trend overnight.
If you can avoid eating late then by the time you go to bed any bolus insulin ( your Novo Rapid) which last 4-5 hours should have run its course so one less variable to consider.
Then when you have got that stable perhaps focus on your most regular meal of the day which for most of us is breakfast so try experimenting in terms of how much NR and the timing to try and get a “ stable” level of control ,then focus on lunch and then your evening meal.
Then try and put it all together but do not expect miracles as there many other things you need to factor in like exercise etc.
Use your Libre to note your readings pre and post meal and record them and look for patterns relating to particular meals.
You can then look at things like carb counting etc but that is for the future.
Also consider setting your Libre alert higher to forewarn you of a downward trend so you can act quicker as you are more likely not to overreact by taking on too many fast acting carbs.
In time you will gain more experience and confidence in managing your situation.
One other thing to note is having Tyoe 3c and no pancreas means you effectively have no Beta cells which regulate the insulin but also no Alpha cells which regulate Glucagon and that can lead to a more brittle(unpredictable type of diabetes).
Good luck
Thank you for replying & trying to help me. You have given me some really good information & advice there….. I’ve learned more from you than the specialist nurses! Thank you…I shall read again & inwardly digest
 
Welcome to the forum @Ronnie5cakes , and to the fickle, contrary, and sometimes apparently outrageously cantankerous adversary (or houseguest, take your pick) that is insulin-dependent diabetes.

You’ve had some helpful shared experiences already.

It can be a real brain-bender in the beginning as you learn how your body reacts and responds to different meals, dose sizes, sources of carbs, levels of activity, alcohol intake, stress levels, excitement… even ambient temperature!

It will get easier..

And you’ll find ways and workarounds to reduce the number of variables at times to keep things manageable, while still living a satisfying and flexible life.

Keep asking questions, and keep experimenting!
 
I am going to give you 2 bits if info, Ronnie. The first one is that despite what 'they' say - Lantus insulin does not release itself into your bloodstream at a strictly level rate over the next 24 hours after it's injected. Over the first 4 to 5 hours, it builds up to a mini peak in activity. So if you go to bed at 10pm with a perfect blood glucose of 6.0 annoyingly that '5 hour most active time' coincides with the time of night when human blood glucose is naturally at its lowest ebb - hence hypos can ensue which ain't ideal. Second thing is for what its worth for Type 1 diabetes, when we all first set out on learning to adjust our own insulin meal doses - it was suggested to try 1u Novorapid for each 10g carbohydrate and see if that worked OK - in other words we all had to basically do medical experiments on ourselves as our very own personal Lab Rat! Nobody ever knows upfront exactly how that will go for each of us. Gradually we have to become expert in treating our own diabetes - which by no means makes us expert in treating anyone else's.

Have fun experimenting!
 
Hello @ Ronnie5cakes, I came to this Forum after my Whipples Procedure in Feb '20; I had a total pancreatectomy, like yourself, except the pathology from my Whipples confirmed an excess of malignant nodes, so it was justified. I spent 3 months recuperating from the Surgery then had a number of chemo sessions, which did not suit me at all !!

Your title of "It's all guesswork!!" resonates with me. I spent most of my 1st year on that roller coaster of dreadful lows and terrific highs, with not much time in the middle and I also had a great deal of access to a DSN at the Hospital. In hindsight she was a delightful person who simply did not understand that my world was different to new T1s that she normally encountered. This DSN finally proved that when my GP was trying to ration me to a maximum of 4 test strips per day and when (unknown to me) asked by my GP, my DSN confirmed that I tested too much and 4 was absolutely all I needed. I received Libre a month later after I'd spelt out to both my GP and DSN that not only did I need to test regularly but it was also a legal remit from the DVLA. Now 4+ yrs on I frequently encounter Health Care Professionals (HCPs) working closely to Diabetes or any Endocrinology who haven't thought through what I'm missing having surrendered my panc'y.

Anyway, you've had loads of info in the last 8 hrs and I've galloped through what you have now been told. So I'll read it all again and see if there is anything that I would have loved to know, that you haven't already heard today and get back to you. One thing I didn't spot was Gary Scheiner's book "Think Like a Pancreas". I found this quite early on and read it cover to cover, only skipping the Chapter on insulin pumps, because then my likelihood of becoming eligible was nil; even that is today a more realistic possibility - so there is lots of potential change happening currently. We've already seen in the last 2 yrs the rollout of CGM (mainly Libre 2) to almost all T1s who want it and EVEN T3cs who previously just weren't naturally eligible (reflects how poorly T3c has been understood!). Also all the current CGMs have progressed into being "real time" readings, whee previously the sensor had the data, but you had to stop and scan to find anything out.

Finally as I close @Wendal told you it does get easier and I wholly agree with that. I also agree that my D is noticeably "brittle", ie quick to crash with far too little time to recognise its going to happen and take pre-emptive action. My solution is to have my low alert threshold set at 6.5 (I have the Dexcom G7 CGM which allows this; your Libre 2 alas only allows a top limit of 5.6 mmol/L for their low Alarm. The clue here is that I get sensible "Alert" time from my G7; I think Libre is more of an "Alarm" at 5.6 which is insufficient time to do the theoretical finger prick check, weigh up why, then respond appropriately. But from 6.5 I can often intercept a fall, nudge against that with 5 to 10 medium GI carbs (often a high protein snack bar) AND still have time to monitor and check my intercept is working, before the crash is upon me!

Good luck, please don't hesitate to ask anything that might help you. Lots to learn about this "Complicated, Confusing and Contradictory" business [ref Gary Scheiner] [So true]. It is a marathon, not a sprint; and Trial and Learning takes time!
 
I know it very much depends on your hospital/health board but it might be worth asking your GP (or did you have a Specialist Nurse contact for your surgery?) about access to a Dietitian as well as the diabetes nurse. I struggle to get hold of the DSN but the Dietitian team are much more available. As well as diabetes you're also at risk of malnutrition and various deficiencies so you should be having blood tests every 6 months or so as well as being weighed. I also found they were well informed on the links/overlap with Diabetes.

I'm about 8 weeks post operation and lost about 8 kilogrammes so 10 doesn't sound too bad. Although I've had some support much of my learning about insulin has been through trial and error. It does feel a bit bleak but you'll also start to pick up knowledge. As Barbara says you soon learn not to over compensate for lows, which foods take longer to digest which means taking the Rapid later or even splitting it. No one told me I could do that but its the answer if I'm having pizza.

You should also be invited to an outpatient appointment soon - probably at your local hospital as you also need to have regular checks on limbs, eyes etc but that might be a good place to ask about extra support.
 
Welcome to the forum @Ronnie5cakes , and to the fickle, contrary, and sometimes apparently outrageously cantankerous adversary (or houseguest, take your pick) that is insulin-dependent diabetes.

You’ve had some helpful shared experiences already.

It can be a real brain-bender in the beginning as you learn how your body reacts and responds to different meals, dose sizes, sources of carbs, levels of activity, alcohol intake, stress levels, excitement… even ambient temperature!

It will get easier..

And you’ll find ways and workarounds to reduce the number of variables at times to keep things manageable, while still living a satisfying and flexible life.

Keep asking questions, and keep experimenting!
Thank you for trying to help me…. & reassuring me that it will get better I’m trying hard to take everything onboard
no one prepares you at all for any of this…I always thought diabetic folks just had an injection at mealtime & hey presto all things are equal!! Every day is a school day…
 
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