If Vegan can why cant we.............. There is no such thing as a Diabetic Diet ????

[Robin]

But, as many of them on here say, they don't low carb, in fact that would be a completely useless piece of information as it's the total carbs in the meal that matter for that.
So, from the figures though,
there are around 5 milllion vegetarians in the UK.
This site, 30,000 members, maybe 100 a day active posters.
Many varied diets, certainly not all low carb.
So, definitely a very low figure in the grand scheme of things.

The question asked, that I was answering, was how many are 'carb conscious,' the discussion seemed to have moved away from low carb, (which is where it started, I know)

 

[Deleted member 21371]

The question asked, that I was answering, was how many are 'carb conscious,' the discussion seemed to have moved away from low carb, (which is where it started, I know)

Back on track then, it appears low carb is a diet followed by very few people compared to vegetarianism for example.

 

[helli]

Back on track then, it appears low carb is a diet followed by very few people compared to vegetarianism for example.

I agree - t'internet suggests 7% of the UK population are vegetarian (I agree that is different to vegan) and more than just vegetarians eat vegan options at times.
t'internet also suggests about 7% of the UK population have diabetes (of all types) and whilst there are a few people without diabetes who will eat low carb the majority of people with diabetes do not.
So, more people are interested in vegan options than low carb.

Whether that is a good thing for the heath of the nation is up for debate?

 

[trophywench]

I've been 'carb conscious' my whole life because my mother was so she automatically passed this knowledge on to my sister and I as we grew up. She had learned from her mum so by the time we reached senior school, we could identify the 3 categories of food ie, protein, carb and fat, at 30 paces. She instilled into us the concept of balancing meals. Plus she was firm - no you can't have another X, it's got to last us 2 days and you've already had today's slice. No point in arguing, I can tell you!

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I agree - t'internet suggests 7% of the UK population are vegetarian (I agree that is different to vegan) and more than just vegetarians eat vegan options at times.
t'internet also suggests about 7% of the UK population have diabetes (of all types) and whilst there are a few people without diabetes who will eat low carb the majority of people with diabetes do not.
So, more people are interested in vegan options than low carb.

Whether that is a good thing for the heath of the nation is up for debate?

It seems to be the suggestion now that a vegetarian lifestyle may be better overall for the environment, and eating seasonal locally produced will be even better.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I've been 'carb conscious' my whole life because my mother was so she automatically passed this knowledge on to my sister and I as we grew up. She had learned from her mum so by the time we reached senior school, we could identify the 3 categories of food ie, protein, carb and fat, at 30 paces. She instilled into us the concept of balancing meals. Plus she was firm - no you can't have another X, it's got to last us 2 days and you've already had today's slice. No point in arguing, I can tell you!

By that arguement the eatwell plate promotes a carb conscious environment.
All laid out, all balanced.

 

[helli]

It seems to be the suggestion now that a vegetarian lifestyle may be better overall for the environment, and eating seasonal locally produced will be even better.

As a vegaquarian (vegetarian who occasionally eats fish), I do not disagree with you.
My last sentence above was whether it would be better for more people to be carb conscious and eat lower amounts and to what level. I have read of some people who have gone full carnivore to eat no carbs which feels too far but I am definitely not a dietician.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

As a vegaquarian (vegetarian who occasionally eats fish), I do not disagree with you.
My last sentence above was whether it would be better for more people to be carb conscious and eat lower amounts and to what level. I have read of some people who have gone full carnivore to eat no carbs which feels too far but I am definitely not a dietician.

I'd think it would be interesting if they did go full carnivore and caught it themselves.
I'm not sure Tesco plastic wrapped counts for me.
The exercise, (and I suspect the enforced diet) would pay dividends.

 

[Proud to be erratic]

Can I ask how you know this? Where did you get the information that most diabetics are carb concious?

Fair challenge @LancashireLass .

I don't know this with any certainty and probably am making too big an assumption. But diabetes seems to run freely on my maternal side of a large family (my mother was one of 6) and every one of those produced cousins with at least one diabetic and that continues on down the genetations; some T1s, more T2s. Every cousin I talk to is carb aware: either as T1 and counting or T2 and avoiding or being selective. That said there is a very high incidence of medical people in my extended family. Hence my impression, admittedly superficial, that "most diabetics have more than a passing interest in the carb %".

Even if the majority of diabetics are not carb aware, it doesn't change my view that the way that carb % is displayed on packaging is unnecessarily poor.

 

[LancashireLass]

Fair challenge @LancashireLass .

I don't know this with any certainty and probably am making too big an assumption. But diabetes seems to run freely on my maternal side of a large family (my mother was one of 6) and every one of those produced cousins with at least one diabetic and that continues on down the genetations; some T1s, more T2s. Every cousin I talk to is carb aware: either as T1 and counting or T2 and avoiding or being selective. That said there is a very high incidence of medical people in my extended family. Hence my impression, admittedly superficial, that "most diabetics have more than a passing interest in the carb %".

Even if the majority of diabetics are not carb aware, it doesn't change my view that the way that carb % is displayed on packaging is unnecessarily poor.

I agree withyou about the labelling and in my opinion, food labelling in general is pretty poor.

Sorry if my post came across as challenging, I was just curoius because as I said in an earlier post, this forum seems to really push low carb as almost the only option to deal with diabetes which of course is simply not the case. Of course we can only base opinions on what we see around us and of course I respect that 🙂

I just feel as though people could be put off this forum by the sometimes extremely hard push of low carb - and that's based on my own vistis here and it's the reason I don't come here regularly, because it's the same old response to every single newbie that joins looking for help. Of course this approach obviously works for some people and that's fine, but some make it seem like the only way which is wrong.

Anyway that's nothing to do with the original post around labelling and is a complete tangent so I'll shut up now lol

 

[Proud to be erratic]

I agree withyou about the labelling and in my opinion, food labelling in general is pretty poor.

Sorry if my post came across as challenging, I was just curoius because as I said in an earlier post, this forum seems to really push low carb as almost the only option to deal with diabetes which of course is simply not the case. Of course we can only base opinions on what we see around us and of course I respect that 🙂

I just feel as though people could be put off this forum by the sometimes extremely hard push of low carb - and that's based on my own vistis here and it's the reason I don't come here regularly, because it's the same old response to every single newbie that joins looking for help. Of course this approach obviously works for some people and that's fine, but some make it seem like the only way which is wrong.

Anyway that's nothing to do with the original post around labelling and is a complete tangent so I'll shut up now lol

No problem, I'm happy to be challenged and content to fess up when misjudged or downright wrong!

I'm definitely not low carb; b'fast always around 100, lunch (if taken) 40-50 and dinner 60-80. But I'm fairly accurate with my carb counting and thus bolusing. I'm lucky in that my weight is very static and I keep myself reasonably active. I dismissed low carb very early on, once I read Gary Scheiner's book and appreciated that I'd need to start counting proteins and fats; all too complicated for me! There's enough faff just counting carbs.

Like you I do think the low carb push can be too dominant. But, since I'm insulin dependent, I can imagine that for a T2 who might also be wrestling with an overweight start point, low carb could have an attraction. The more I try to understand the dietectic business (and that came about because I had a malabsorption problem for 2 years, which played havoc with carb counting and I couldn't get taken seriously by my 'team' of experts) the more confused I became; so many contradictions within the rationale with numbers 'rules' that just felt like 'DIY bodges'. So I parked all that and followed the easy-for-me route.

That said, I've just been looking at the recent Smoothie thread and can can see that if I should want a rapid digest of what I'm about to eat, then puree would be the way to do that. So some dietectic knowledge can help; although not sure why I'd need that rapid response!

Anyway, enough rambling for this morning; warm weather to take advantage of and yet more plants to plant. A neighbour offered us a couple of free plants and we came away with various trays of vegetables; now got to make some space in between the shrubs.

 

[helli]

But I'm fairly accurate with my carb counting and thus bolusing.

Being pedantic, I am always amused when I see "accurate" carb counting mentioned. It is easy to get carried away with the precision of the stated carb content and assume it is accurate. However, it is always an estimate - you see the carb content listed for a slice of cake but what if you have a slice with more or less currants? you see the crab content for an apple but what if it is more or less ripe or a Granny Smith compared to a Braeburn? you read the carb content of a chocolate bar but I've had a Penguin without the biscuit so know these things vary. I've read that the most accurate way to work out the carb content of a meal is to burn it and then weigh the resultant carbon but if you do that, you can't eat it so who cares how many crabs there were.
My attitude is that when considering the 42 things that can affect our blood sugars and the (in)accuracy of our meters, the estimates we get when carb counting are good enough even though they are not accurate.

 

[Proud to be erratic]

Being pedantic, I am always amused when I see "accurate" carb counting mentioned. It is easy to get carried away with the precision of the stated carb content and assume it is accurate.

Yes, can't ultimately fault that statement. I did say 'fairly accurate'.

However, it is always an estimate - you see the carb content listed for a slice of cake but what if you have a slice with more or less currants?

Never mind the complexity of a fruit cake - which on the basis of averages is actually potentially quite accurate, if you eat a decent proportion of the whole cake.

you see the crab content for an apple but what if it is more or less ripe or a Granny Smith compared to a Braeburn?

Again true enough but at +/- 10 %, not greatly significant; the carbs in a banana (part of my daily breakfast content - has kept my ulcerative colitis in remission for years) are far from accurate depending on its ripeness and is high carb at 19-20% peeled, in relation to many other fruits.

you read the carb content of a chocolate bar but I've had a Penguin without the biscuit so know these things vary. I've read that the most accurate way to work out the carb content of a meal is to burn it and then weigh the resultant carbon but if you do that, you can't eat it so who cares how many crabs there were.
My attitude is that when considering the 42 things that can affect our blood sugars and the (in)accuracy of our meters, the estimates we get when carb counting are good enough even though they are not accurate.

Taken to a logical conclusion it is all guesswork.

MDI is a concept based on guessing (the wrong type of insulin, in the wrong place, at the wrong time and wrong duration; meter accuracy is +/- 15%; injection sites affect the rate of insulin uptake; how I'm feeling today is guessing (being the wrong side of 70 with other modest ailments doesn't help); the weather (usually, albeit not so much this week) is a guess; the details from LibreLink are woefully approximate, without having sensors consistently starting 2+ pts high and irritatingly zig-zagging downwards to 2 pts low before ending or failing early (still over 50% fails) - generating misleading stats. The list of guesses is significant, multiple times daily. A pump would reduce that guessing, with hourly auto adjustments and a better tech overview.

BUT I try to get close to a very good estimate. I feel that if I don't do at least that, then I might as well guess about every aspect of managing my DM. And, honestly, there are days when it all feels like failed guesswork - hence why bother. I might liken my carb calcs to a carabiniere keeping my safety rope in a preferred place; I have to trust something.

SO being pedantic about "accurate carb counting" doesn't particularly help, risks bursting my personal comfort bubble and then risks leaving me (or other relative newbies) with no stable reference point to cling to for this Confusing, Complicated, Contradictory disease [ref Gary Scheiner, Think Like a Pancreas].

Or "Diabetes is Dastardly"?😉

Meanwhile, back to planting; found spaces for spinach and beetroot plants; just 20 onions to bury, preferably somewhere together in my very dispersed veg patch! Must remember to water them all. Not helped by still being under strict orders to not lift anything! And got the original 2 plants to bury.

 

[Lucyr]

I can’t imagine how you’d expect a low carb label to work. All foods can be eaten on a low carb diet, it just depends on the portion size you have.

If the portion size on a bag of sugar was 1 teaspoon then that is easily fit into a low carb diet of 130g carb per day, so should qualify for this low carb label. I imagine that’s not what you’re thinking of as helpful though, so it just wouldn’t work as there’s no set definition of what food items can be eaten on low carb diets.

 

[nonethewiser]

Have odd days where don't eat meat, push comes to shove could possibly go vegetarian but no way could go vegan, can see health benefits with vegetarian diet & see why its so popular now.

 

[trophywench]

@Proud to be erratic - thunderstorms predicted tomorrow/Saturday.


@ shedloads of other folk - I got banned from 'that red forum' a couple of decades ago for saying that low carb was NOT the only way to deal with T2. I hated them anyway from Day1 of them appearing because they used the former Hummingbird logo which Diabetes UK used and hence shedloads of people - lay folk and medics - erroneously believed it was the charity advising them rather than just being run by a commercial organisation who got their income from advertising being placed on there - and the advice given by people who just happened to have diabetes themselves.

Even though DUK pay for the running costs of this forum - nobody who joins the forum should ever give advice unless it's prefaced with the caveat 'If you're asking what I'd do myself, I'd do ... (whatever)' - and hopefully try and explain why they'd try doing it, so the other person understands what they're getting at.

Years ago when I originally joined this forum there were hardly any Type 1s on here. (calling @ukjohn 🙂 !) Everyone seemed lovely - I can't deny that - but also a lot of folk saying the equivalent of 'There, there dear. Now have a good night's sleep and you'll feel better in the morning' - I might not have known as much as I've discovered since - but I was bloomin 190% sure a good night's sleep wouldn't sort out my BG ranging from LO to HI on my meter multiple times a day.

Not assisted by never seeing the same person twice at the hospital clinic, seeing one doctor who not only literally resembled Einstein, but also complete with German sounding surname and ditto his accent, explaining to me in a kindly voice like you'd speak to a 2 year old (I was knocking 50) that when your BG drop as low as that, it is necessary to treat it with a little piece of bread, but only a little piece, so I obviously used too much at a time and that's why I hit HI an hour later. (Oh right, silly me, I'll instantly stop doing that then ....)

I did find help from other T1s which explains why I haven't dropped dead quite yet - but we do all need to be careful - and I should listen to what I've just said too, a lot of the time, cos I'm much more likely to say Oh, that was daft then! than I am Oh, that probably wasn't the best plan then! I know that everyone on earth does daft things sometimes, but that must not be interpreted as that everything they ever do is always automatically daft. There would never ever be an accident. No-one would EVER poke themselves in their own eye, singe their fringe, stall their car, get gloss paint on a wall or window or break a saucer. That thought is really silly! Just my turn of phrase and by NO means meant nastily.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

What finished me off was reporting I'd successfully reversed my diabetes on the Newcastle diet.
All the usual posters came out, pulled the wagons into a circle and told me it was impossible, I couldn't live on 800 calories of shakes forever, (I don't think they actually had a clue what the diet actually was) it had to be low carb for life!
Then they all started liking each others posts.
(And saying how "yummy" their choices were)
Every thread got bombarded in the same way.

 

[Lucyr]

What finished me off was reporting I'd successfully reversed my diabetes on the Newcastle diet.
All the usual posters came out, pulled the wagons into a circle and told me it was impossible, I couldn't live on 800 calories of shakes forever, (I don't think they actually had a clue what the diet actually was) it had to be low carb for life!
Then they all started liking each others posts.
(And saying how "yummy" their choices were)
Every thread got bombarded in the same way.

The low carb part sounds a bit like here sometimes…

 

[Jenny105]

Agree. I use CGM which allows me to see how my body reacts. I notice that I have a problem with bread but not with pasta for instance.
Portion size, balanced intake and exercise work for me. There is no "diabetic diet" we are all different to a degree

Hi what does CGM stand for ... sounds interesting .

 

[Jenny105]

I think you have a point, Jenny. Whole sections of the supermarkets we shop at now house vegan or plant-based foods. Some of these items I buy, but I have to say that an awful lot of vegan products are carb-heavy, which is no good to me. I used to be vegetarian many years ago (long before D) and if Mr Marten is out or away for any reason I tend to eat veggie on my own.

Thanks for all the lively posts . I'm learning quite a lot. I'm sure manufacturers wouldn't be keen on low carb. What would they use instead of wheat flour and sugar if they lower carbs.in recipes? We need carbs for muscle & heart muscle, I was told years ago cos when exercising muscles and heart muscle will waste if our muscles are depleted. Or something like that.
I might write to my MP and see what shes got to say. My query is this if the nation is expected to lose weight why has the emphasis been placed on sugar , not carbs in general. I may have misunderstood something . I thought they were linked .