'Hypos' but not as we know them?

[Essex]

I would just look at the total carbs as sugars are carbs.
When you are having few carbs you can increase the protein and fat otherwise you will feel hungry, and your body has to have some fuel to function.

Thanks
Finding a shop with lactose free stuff that is full fat is a good idea then?
All the stuff I have found so far is 'meio gordo' which means half fat - I think that's semi skimmed?
Breakfast especially, for me has to be easy to prepare, as in put it on/in a plate/bowl and eat it. Yoguhrts are ideal as I can dispense with the plate/bowl

 

[Drummer]

For breakfast I usually have something which amounts to 10 gm of carbs, but it is usually meat made into a stew when I was cooking dinner the previous day, simmered with some veges and kept in the fridge overnight.
In the summer it might be a salad with meat or fish or eggs or cheese.

 

[Essex]

Meat stew for breakfast isn't something I had ever thought of
nor salad, neither fish (maybe kippers)
I even struggled to view anything with cheese in it as breakfast until decades after moving to the continent

No reason for that, just culture I guess.

What about good old fry-ups?
I suppose they are not as bad as I always thought, I only use olive oil and little to fry and grill prob better?
Too much work of a morning for lazy me tho
I love bacon and eggs!
I'm dribbling

All of the above is not at all sarky, its that I am changing my mind set and wouldnt be at all surprised that what I always held as true isnt (or doesnt have to be) in the end, so.

 

[Leadinglights]

My memories of 'continental' breakfast are platters of varieties of cooked meats, cheeses, eggs, yoghurt, fruit, seeds and nuts as well as the selection of very tempting fresh bread.
All pretty easy to grab quickly in the morning.

 

[rebrascora]

Yes, bacon and eggs and mushrooms is very low carb, but I don't think it would be particularly healthy to eat bacon every day, because of the processing. Good for an occasional treat though. Eggs are great in all their forms. I personally quite like an omelette because you can vary the filling and it doesn't have a runny yolk which becomes a temptation to eat bread to soak it up or feel like it should have toast to serve it on like scrambled or poached. If I have a 2 egg omelette with cheese and onion and mushrooms and maybe some peppers or courgette and aubergine and a salad (mixed lettuce leaves with cucumber and maybe a couple of cherry tomatoes with it with a big dollop of creamy or cheese coleslaw, I don't need anything more to eat until the evening and don't feel hungry and it is very low carb and very filling.

If you are lactose intolerant (as oppose to allergic) you might get away with double cream. It is lower in carbs than milk because it has very little lactose in it which is water soluble and makes your morning coffee taste great, but it would probably be nice on Weetabix if you can cope with those but not the milk. This is where you have to learn to change your approach to food and think about fat as being part of your diet not bad as we have been told for the past 50+ years. Fat provides slow release energy and it slows down the digestion so you don't need that snack 2 or 3 hours after your breakfast anymore.... and lets face it, it tastes good. Eggs are great because they are protein and fat, similarly nuts, although you have to be selective as some nuts are higher in carbs than others... cashews and peanuts being higher than walnuts, almonds, brazils and hazelnuts. Pork scratching feature quite frequently as a snack on my menu because they are almost equal parts fat and protein but no carbs as oppose to crisps etc which are higher carb. The combination of fat and carbs is possibly the real problem with fat, but if you cut the carbs right down and eat protein and fat then it seems to work well, perhaps because the body burns it as fuel because it doesn't have glucose. The really interesting thing is that many of us who follow a low carb higher fat way of eating find that our cholesterol levels decrease and we feel fitter and healthier and slimmer than we did eating carbs and low fat.

 

[Essex]

So, this is this Newcastle diet type approach that I am gradually hearing more about then?
I found their booklet, which sounded a bit OTT with shakes etc, but where is a good place to start reading about this fat and protein not so much carbs then?
Have I got that right?
If its about changing, then I love that
All sounds very interesting and makes sense
Is this a 'two camps' type of thing?

 

[Leadinglights]

So, this is this Newcastle diet type approach that I am gradually hearing more about then?
I found their booklet, which sounded a bit OTT with shakes etc, but where is a good place to start reading about this fat and protein not so much carbs then?
Have I got that right?
If its about changing, then I love that
All sounds very interesting and makes sense
Is this a 'two camps' type of thing?

A number of people on here have tried this approach. It came out of research from Newcastle university and is a very low calorie short term program intended to kick start weight loss.
It is based on shakes which are now produced by a number of companies, some I believe are more palatable than others. It was something that was prescribed on the NHS for some people as a trial.
At some point you need then to reintroduce 'normal' food.

 

[rebrascora]

Newcastle is different to Low Carb Higher Fat (LCHF) way of eating. Newcastle is a short term (usually 8 weeks I believe) very low CALORIE diet.... 800 calories a day. Having meal replacement shakes is just a convenient way of ensuring you get the right amount of calories and nutrients but it isn't particularly low carb, but will likely be low fat because fat is calorie dense. The idea is that you force your body to use up it's reserves of fat and particularly the visceral fat around the liver and pancreas which cause part of the problem with Type 2 diabetes.... the slow response of the pancreas to release insulin and the liver to regulate it's release of glucose. The two organs have on/off switches which rely on good communication between them and the fatty build up impacts that effective communication. The goal is to lose about 15kg which in about 50% of cases, puts diabetes into remission. The important thing is that you need to maintain the weight loss to maintain remission. If you are a Yo-Yo dieter then this may be the difficulty.

The LCHF way of eating is a change for life. A different but still enjoyable way of eating, but it takes a bit of getting your head around at first, particularly because bread is a carrier for so many foods, so cutting that right down or eliminating it is a bit mind boggling at first. The great thing about LCHF for me is that I don't need any will power to maintain it and I don't get hungry and I don't suffer food cravings.... I still enjoy my food, in some respects, more than I did before because I no longer eat those bland carbs. I start the day with double cream in my coffee and I often end it with a nice piece of cheese and a glass of red and those are all well within the eating plan. I eat lamb chops and belly pork and cauliflower cheese with sausages, but the cauliflower is just coated with cream cheese and then sprinkled with a combination of grated cheeses and browned off in the oven, no flour and milk involved and the sausages are high meat content ones not cheap ones with lots of rusk in it. Veggies like cabbage, kale, spinach, leeks etc get cooked/served with a knob of butter or a good dollop of cream cheese mixed in. Aubergines, tomatoes, courgettes, peppers, onions and garlic get roasted in a good glug or more of nice olive oil not a spray of that 1 cal spray stuff that dieters use. Olives and feta are a regular feature with my G and slimline T. Good quality natural fats are used, not vegetable oils like Rapeseed oil.

You are right in thinking that there are two camps and there are very vocal proponents for both. Both have pretty good success rates so it is more a question of which approach you feel will work for you. LCHF is the right one for me because I know that I will slide back to my old ways of eating too much and putting on weight because once I eat carbs I gradually want more and I am a bit of an all or nothing person. I have always liked fat, so I am happy eating that and cutting the carbs which tend to make me lose control. I don't feel deprived with the way that I eat and I generally eat a lot less without feeling hungry so for me that works well. I also feel fitter and healthier and slimmer and younger than I have for many years eating more fat and less carbs, so I feel that it suits me.

 

[Drummer]

@Essex I never thought of breakfast as a light meal - I come from good farming stock - my father's family, on his mother's side were cleared off their land in Scotland and moved south. I used to be out every morning feeding the poultry, collecting eggs and picking fruit when it was ripe, so something warming was needed - the land was in shadow in the morning.

 

[Essex]

@Leadinglights @rebrascora
Thanks!
So what is a Keto diet then?
I dont actually have that much trouble loosing weight - in my youth I had the opposite trouble, but Father Time caught up with me.
I lost 10 kg this summer and am now 63kg and 5'3"
I'm having a pause but could probly loose more if needed
I do have a fatty liver tho (waiting for new scan to see exactly how much etc), and my liver enzymes are a bit out
I have to say my exercise is limited to dog and school walks at the moment - I must get back jogging of a morning.

@Drummer
I'm a bit of a breakfast lightweight!

 

[Leadinglights]

@Leadinglights @rebrascora
Thanks!
So what is a Keto diet then?
I dont actually have that much trouble loosing weight - in my youth I had the opposite trouble, but Father Time caught up with me.
I lost 10 kg this summer and am now 63kg and 5'3"
I'm having a pause but could probly loose more if needed
I do have a fatty liver tho (waiting for new scan to see exactly how much etc), and my liver enzymes are a bit out
I have to say my exercise is limited to dog and school walks at the moment - I must get back jogging of a morning.

@Drummer
I'm a bit of a breakfast lightweight!

A keto diet is very very low carb around 20g per day because it is virtually impossible to have zero carbs. To compensate it is generally high fat and protein.
From google
The ketogenic diet is a very low carb, high fat diet that shares many similarities with the Atkins and low carb diets.
It involves drastically reducing carbohydrate intake and replacing it with fat. This reduction in carbs puts your body into a metabolic state called ketosis.
When this happens, your body becomes incredibly efficient at burning fat for energy. It also turns fat into ketones in the liver, which can supply energy for the brain.
Ketogenic diets can cause significant reductions in blood sugar and insulin levels. This, along with the increased ketones, has some health benefits.

This I think is a hard regime to follow.

 

[Essex]

@Leadinglights Thanks, not for me that!

So, my final day's test results seem to show that I should focus on breakfast and that I can keep in limits with some care
At least that's what happened today.

That breakfast peak to 12 - is that a problem, or is it OK as it was back down to 5 after 2 hrs?

Next step is to work out my diet

good night all!

Date​	30/11/21​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	Time​	mg/dL​	mmol/mol​	Food / Activity​
​	​	​	​	​
Waking​	06:44​	108​	6.0​	​
​	​	​	​	​
Breakfast​	07:00​	​	​	2 x Plain 125 g lactose free yoghurt, Tea​
​	​	​	​	​
Post Prandial #1​	08:10​	216​	12.0​	School & dog walk​
Post Prandial #2​	09:08​	89​	4.9​	Lifted heavy table tennis table​
Post Prandial #3​	09:45​	95​	5.3​	Feeling a bit tired / foggy, (then a bit better?)​
Post Prandial #4​	10:24​	86​	4.8​	Hungry / Stomach rumbling​
​	​	​	​	​
Elevenses​	10:45​	​	​	Almonds, Pumpkin seeds sunflower seed toast​
​	​	​	​	​
Post Prandial #1​	11:53​	153​	8.5​	At computer​
Post Prandial #2​	13:24​	93​	5.2​	At computer​
​	​	​	​	​
Lunch​	13:50​	​	​	(too much) Rice, Chicken Tikka Masala (jar sauce!)​
​	​	​	​	​
Post Prandial #1​	14:15​	131​	7.3​	At computer​
Post Prandial #2​	16:10​	105​	5.8​	At computer​
Post Prandial #3​	17:39​	105​	5.8​	Hungry / Stomach rumbling​
​	​	​	​	​
Tea​	17:45​	​	​	Yoghurt, cashews, cheese, ham, half slice bread​
​	​	​	​	​
Post Prandial #1​	18:15​	124​	6.9​	At computer​
Post Prandial #2​	19:04​	126​	7.0​	Cooking​
​	​	​	​	​
Dinner​	20:30​	​	​	½ cup pasta, 2 chicken drumsticks, asparagus​
​	​	​	​	​
Post Prandial #1​	21:55​	103​	5.7​	Housework​
Post Prandial #2​	22:45​	120​	6.7​	Dog walk​
Post Prandial #3​	23:45​	119​	6.6​	At computer​

 

[rebrascora]

If you have a fatty liver, and you don't have a problem losing weight, then the Newcastle diet might be better for you as it may be that the fatty deposits around your liver and possibly pancreas are what is causing the bulk of your problems and losing that via a short term very low calorie (800calories per day) diet would work best for you.
It may be that your apparent hypos are a symptom of this poor communication between these two organs as well as responsible for initially spiking your levels high after carbs but then coming back down. Losing those fatty deposits could just rebalance your system. At 63kg you are not desperately overweight, so you might not need to lose too much more to get rid of that fatty liver.

I don't know a lot about the Newcastle diet but there are threads on this forum and members like @travellor who are keen proponents of it and have been successful with it and will be able to steer you in the right direction. Hopefully he will be along at some point, now that I have tagged him. The work of Professor Roy Taylor is pretty well documented and he has written books about his findings in this field.

 

[Drummer]

I would not like those precipitous drops from 12 to 5 in an hour - I'd far rather just not go up that high in the first place.
My scheme has been to get to normal levels and then just see what happens - in my case things have become very unremarkable, as far as I know - having offended my GP (apparently) by stopping being diabetic I have not had all that much contact with HCPs, but what I have had seems fairly unremarkable.
I needed to lose weight, which I am continuing to do if my waist size is any indication - but I needed to reverse the effects of all those 'healthy' carbs I had been encouraged to eat.
As your diet is somewhat restricted by things other than diabetes I'd advise getting a smoother daily graph first and when you have got that worked out and seen how it changes things over a period of time, consider your options at that point rather than making any decision about a strictly low calorie diet.

 

[Essex]

Thanks!
Now I have something to aim at 🙂
Now I am being hassled about xmas decorations etc 🙄 (its a bank holiday) and the dog is climbing up under my arm into my lap!

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Your Hba1c looks slightly high, compared to your spot readings.
As you say, it's gives an average of around 7 to 8.
You seem to have a fast spike, then drop to around 4 or 5 normally.

Carbs are absorbed at different rates.
Pure sugar will give you an instant hit, low GI high fibre foods take a lot longer to be absorbed, so give a low, gentle rise.
Many of us can tolerate low GI foods with negligible effect.
You could try changing foods to ones that don't give a rapid spike.

I'm not entirely sure the Newcastle diet would work, it did for me, but I was a classic overweight type 2.
It's worth a try.

Looking at the way your blood spikes, then overshoots on the fall, have a google of "reactive hypoglycemia"

It's not something I know much about, but members do seem to have good results by going very low carb, so as to reduce the amount of insulin produced in the first place, and so limiting the overshoot.

Personally, I'd try all the methods, low GI, see if the low carb works, if not I'd try the 800 calories diet, using shakes, as they are nutritionally balanced, and shouldn't set off any other food allergies. (but check the contents)

 

[Essex]

Your Hba1c looks slightly high, compared to your spot readings.
As you say, it's gives an average of around 7 to 8.
You seem to have a fast spike, then drop to around 4 or 5 normally.

That's what I thought, if you took the area under my curve for yesterday and made a rectangle of the same area the height of it (average) wouldn't be anywhere near 7 or 8.

I think that for the 3 months before that last test, I had stopped eating any sugary stuff like cakes etc, but hadnt twigged that it was bout carbs

I am hopeful now that I know enough to drop my levels in the next test.

I think I can control my morning spike with different eating habits too, hopefully.

I think I will try reduced carbs and better eating habits and especially timings first and then see what happens

The Newcastle diet looked interesting as it could maybe help with my other issue at the mo of high liver enzymes / fatty liver

Will suggest that to my liver doctor at next meeting after my new fangled scan.

Figure 3 here is the source of the figure on the Wikipedia page on Blood Sugar, below, for a normal human being 🙂
(EDIT: I was only looking at the undotted lines in this - not the diet affected ones)

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I'm not sure under 5 is the average, and the peaks are often higher than 6.5, on a "normal" person.
It varies with age as well.

 

[Essex]

I'm not sure under 5 is the average, and the peaks are often higher than 6.5, on a "normal" person.
It varies with age as well.

That's good to know, I will keep looking for an 'average' BG daily plot

 

[Essex]

This seems to show 'average' values for 'NGT' and 'IFG/IGT', blue and red, 'normal' and 'diabetic' people
In this case they have 'applied' two types of diets 'HC/HF' (Hi carb b'fast, High Fat lunch) and vice versa, HF/HC

I cant find a simpler example, yet 🙂



Effects of the HC/HF diet (solid lines) and the HF/HC diet (dotted lines) on pre- and postprandial glucose (A), levels in NGT subjects (blue) and IFG/IGT subjects (red)