'Hypos' but not as we know them?

[Essex]

Hi,

There is no doubt that for the last 15 years or so (or maybe more?) I have suffered from severe DT's, light-headedness, dizziness, palpitations, sweating, 'Dolly Zooms', dizziness, seeing stars (very pretty), extreme irritability, inability to think, brain fogs, fatigues, RAVENOUS hunger!!!, etc etc

This happens most often in the morning at around 10 or 11 and is worse if I dont eat at the right time (which seems to vary unfortunately) mid morning

It comes on very suddenly,

It then goes when I stuff my face in a feeding frenzy with carbs or sugar, often chocking in the process!

However,

Various tests first thing in the morning at various clinics over the years showed 'normal' fasting BG levels and response to high sugar intake (although once I was told to go and eat cakes at a nearby café and then come back for a retest on blood)

Now my HbAc1 levels are up (51, now 48) so I have a BG finger-prick meter

Every morning my fasting levels are fine, in fact I seem to be in range most of the time

Yesterday I caught a DT pretty severe attack and measured my BG - it was 4.0, which should be 'within range' but I was not making my symptoms up.

Does anyone else have this?

Or know what its called so I can search better?

@everydayupsanddowns mentioned something about the BG thermostat getting mal-adjusted?

Funnily enough, I get this worst when I go food shopping (i.e. for other times when I eat the same stuff at the same times - I wont get it if I havent been food shopping)
Could this be (partially) psychosomatic?
But I'm not sure about this - maybe its the fact hat I often get delayed and its actually surprisingly physical


Also, I sit at my desk doing Engineering Research in a uni - which means a different type of mental work than for example, when I was a mechanic (which is also a job where you have to use your head a lot, but its different).
Does doing 'deep thinking' burn up more BG?

 

[trophywench]

Well the brain runs on glucose same as the legs - but have to say were that the case I think I'd have been hypo most of my working life, since as an insurance broker I rarely had experience of clients' businesses, what processes or machinery might be involved - so the grey cells had to do rather a lot!

I didn't use any less insulin after I retired either ......

Feeling hypo at a level of 4 or slightly above is not at all unusual when the body is normally used to being higher than that and your latest HbA1c result informs us all that your body currently is and has been, running higher 'for a while' doesn't it?

So let's just get down to basics and ask, what either D or other medication do you take ? cos it sounds to me like either that needs adjustment or something else adding since it clearly isn't now keeping the BG as low as it once was. If you go berserk and overtreat hypos with lots more carb than strictly necessary - this exacerbates things so won't be helping long or medium term.

You have to appreciate that with time, successful treatment of any type of D for nearly every body, moves on, regardless.

 

[Essex]

Thanks @trophywench

Feeling hypo at a level of 4 or slightly above is not at all unusual when the body is normally used to being higher than that and your latest HbA1c result informs us all that your body currently is and has been, running higher 'for a while' doesn't it?

That's reassuring, all the rest makes sense really

Only other meds I am taking is Escitalopram (SSRI, prozac type stuff) for anxiety / depression. Its just 10 mg (lowest) dosage and have been on it for 2 and half years, this time.

Yes, latest HbA1c shows average BG too high, undoubtedly. Where and when my levels are too high tho, I cant figure out. Since testing I only caught high values late at night after having 4 squares of 85% chocolate during the day, but this is the first time choco in months, it was an experiment.

Its like I drive my car for most of the day at 30, then I dont look at the speedo for a while and at end of day the average speed on mileometer says 50.
Either I am underestimating my 30 and its actually more, or I am doing very high speeds for the times I am not looking at the speedo. High levels whilst sleeping? I usually test after meals, so cant seehow else BG would go up except for from ingestion. I have no idea, but the HbA1c doesnt lie.

Hypo's I know its my own mis-management. I need to eat more regularly and lower carb, between breakfast and lunch
Having said that at meals its small portions of rice or pasta and lots of veg and a small amount of meat (mostly chicken)
No 'treats / misdemeanors'
I now have no added sugar cornflakes, but levels were not high after weetabix.
I think I need to eat little more often perhaps

Perhaps at my next HbA1c test (in 6 months) it will be lower.

The maths type brain work BG mpg, was just because I wasnt doing any exercise to burn off carbs mid morning, so was looking for another mechanism

As @DaveB said of me in another of my posts, ' I think you are overthinking', that's me

 

[Drummer]

@Essex If you are eating a high carb cereal for breakfast, your blood glucose might be dropping rapidly after the high which such foods give a type two. That could be the reason for the symptoms you report.

 

[trophywench]

Can you afford £50 to invest in a Libre sensor? Then you'd know if/ when - but won't necessarily mean there's anything you can actually do to change whatever!

(Could cure the overthinking or could make it worse ..... Shirley Conran was right - sometimes, life really is too short to stuff a mushroom!)

 

[Leadinglights]

Thanks @trophywench


That's reassuring, all the rest makes sense really

Only other meds I am taking is Escitalopram (SSRI, prozac type stuff) for anxiety / depression. Its just 10 mg (lowest) dosage and have been on it for 2 and half years, this time.

Yes, latest HbA1c shows average BG too high, undoubtedly. Where and when my levels are too high tho, I cant figure out. Since testing I only caught high values late at night after having 4 squares of 85% chocolate during the day, but this is the first time choco in months, it was an experiment.

Its like I drive my car for most of the day at 30, then I dont look at the speedo for a while and at end of day the average speed on mileometer says 50.
Either I am underestimating my 30 and its actually more, or I am doing very high speeds for the times I am not looking at the speedo. High levels whilst sleeping? I usually test after meals, so cant seehow else BG would go up except for from ingestion. I have no idea, but the HbA1c doesnt lie.

Hypo's I know its my own mis-management. I need to eat more regularly and lower carb, between breakfast and lunch
Having said that at meals its small portions of rice or pasta and lots of veg and a small amount of meat (mostly chicken)
No 'treats / misdemeanors'
I now have no added sugar cornflakes, but levels were not high after weetabix.
I think I need to eat little more often perhaps

Perhaps at my next HbA1c test (in 6 months) it will be lower.

The maths type brain work BG mpg, was just because I wasnt doing any exercise to burn off carbs mid morning, so was looking for another mechanism

As @DaveB said of me in another of my posts, ' I think you are overthinking', that's me

It does rather depend on what you are calling a small portion of rice or pasta as those are 2 foods which it is easy to be having more carbs than you could ever imagine so you may be better to have more chicken or other meat or fish which is pretty well zero carbs and a few more veg to see if that helps.
Then test 2 hours after your meal to compare with the meal you have had with the rice or pasta. Obviously you would have tested before as well.
There is evidence that sticking to distinct meals with no in between snacking gives better results as you are not constantly drip feeding your body especially if that is with high carb snacks as the body is encouraged to over produce insulin causing more erratic blood glucose levels.
Dr Jason Fung in his book the Diabetes Code explains it all.

 

[Essex]

This was a day with Weetabix and milk and tea for brekky

 

[Essex]

Mind you, the next day, with the same breakfast but with a glass of oat milk as well as the weetabix and milk:

I didnt test during the day but at bedtime it was high too
I had:
Elevenses: Toast & cheese, pumpkin seeds
Late Lunch (15:11): Salmon, Asparagus, Rice (not normally so late)
Afternoon Snack: 4 squares chocolate 85% (NOT normal!)
Dinner (21:15): Soup, Ham & Cheese Sandwiches (not normally so late)

I normally have brekky at 7, elevenses at 10, lunch at 12 or 1, 'afternoon tea' snack varies, dinner at 7 or 8
I am not very good at keeping to elevenses and lnuch and afternoon tea snack times

 

[Essex]

I think I have to try a low carb breakfast, will look at suggestions
I love Greek yoghurt but am also lactose intolerant and the plain lactose free stuff I have found is fortified with sugar.

 

[janw]

Just wondering if you drink normal oat milk as that has the highest carbs of all "milk" products, you might want to try something like almond milk or another that you are not intolerant to. It is likely the oat milk that spikes your BG and then drops quite sharply. Just an observation.

 

[Essex]

That could well be it, at night I have an oat milk before bed too - lovely stuff,and helps me sleep through the night.
I found out I was lactose intolerant just recently too, so am still adjusting my diet to that
Its ALDI oat milk, in one glass 23g carbs, of which 12g sugars it says.
Will try the almond milk or even just the lactose free milk (although that says 13g of which 13g sugars)
maybe milk isnt a good idea all round.

I need to do some serious research into foods and diet.

Mind you my HbA1c test only gave a value corresponding roughly to 7.8 apparently, so it says for my value of 48.

 

[Leadinglights]

That could well be it, at night I have an oat milk before bed too - lovely stuff,and helps me sleep through the night.
I found out I was lactose intolerant just recently too, so am still adjusting my diet to that
Its ALDI oat milk, in one glass 23g carbs, of which 12g sugars it says.
Will try the almond milk or even just the lactose free milk (although that says 13g of which 13g sugars)
maybe milk isnt a good idea all round.

I need to do some serious research into foods and diet.

Mind you my HbA1c test only gave a value corresponding roughly to 7.8 apparently, so it says for my value of 48.

The combination of the weetabix and the oat milk would have been higher carbs than using the lactose free milk so could explain the difference in your 2 days.

 

[Essex]

The combination of the weetabix and the oat milk would have been higher carbs than using the lactose free milk so could explain the difference in your 2 days.

It was Weetabix with lactose milk PLUS a glass of oat milk
I never realised it was so sensitive
A lot to learn.

 

[Drummer]

@Essex You are rather hammering the carbs there.
I stick to under 40 gm of carbs a day to keep my Hba1c as close to normal as possible - few have to go so low, but breakfast cereal, oat milk, bread, rice and other high carb foods - I would bet that they are the reason for your levels ping-ponging up and down and causing you to have 'the wobblies'.

 

[Essex]

Waking 108 / 6.0.
2 'plain' (can't remember what that's called now in UK, here its called 'natural' as in no flavour, no added sugar) lactose free yoghurts and a cuppa
Spreadsheet at the ready.

Blimey, if @Drummer has 40 g a day, that is already 10 g carbs, just with two tiny plain yoghurts!
Shows how good my 'carb awareness' is
How much is low though?
I can't find that info on this site amongst all the info, my searches seem to direct me to type 1 balancing type stuff.

I am getting really confused now - Here it says,

Breakfast ideas when you have diabetes

Diabetes won’t stop you from enjoying your food, but knowing some simple hacks and swaps will help you choose healthier options and make planning your meals a little easier. These ideas may not look much different from what you eat already, and your favourite recipes and meals can usually be adapted to be healthier without you noticing too much difference.

Here are some healthy breakfast ideas to choose from:

a bowl of wholegrain cereal with milk
two slices of wholegrain toast with olive oil-based spread
a pot of natural unsweetened yogurt and fruit

This talks about type 2 and carbs tho.

I guess its risky / very difficult to say what a 'ball-park' figure is for low carb diet?

I am sure the info must be on there but I havent managed to find it

Other sites say:
"A daily limit of 0.7 to 2 ounces (20 to 57 grams) of carbohydrates is typical with a low-carb diet."
"Eating a low-carb diet means cutting down on the amount of carbohydrates (carbs) you eat to less than 130g a day."
"A low carbohydrate diet is defined as eating less than 130g of carbohydrate per day." (NHS Tameside)
"A low carbohydrate diet is a strict plan which means having less than 50g of carbohydrate (carbs) each day." NHS Sheffield Teaching Hospital
etc

 

[Leadinglights]

The info on this site haven't quite caught up with the carb amounts which some people need to go to to keep their levels in an OK range.
Many people find cereals and bread are too much for them to tolerate but as you are able to test then you can find out what you as in individual can cope with.
Many people do go with the 130g per day and some are going as low as 40g but the common amount that people find suits them is somewhere between 50 and 100g.
Often people find it is in the morning that they are more sensitive to carbs so try to have a low carb breakfast. yoghurt with berries and seeds and a mini portion of a low sugar cereal like All Bran or granola or eggs in any form with tomatoes, mushrooms or bacon and maybe a small slice toast. Keeping their breakfast to less than about 20g carb.
Your breakfast could easily have been 50g carb.
You may find What did you eat Yesterday helpful to see what Type 2 folk have for meals but bear in mind that people will be dietary managed only or have variety meds as well.

 

[Essex]

Thanks @Leadinglights
That's very helpful, and I am concentrating on breakfast / mornings for a start as I am sure this is my most sensitive stage of the day:

Date​	30/11/21​	​	​	​
​	​	​	​	​
​	Time​	mg/dL​	mmol/mol​	Food / Activity​
​	​	​	​	​
Waking​	06:44​	108​	6.0​	​
​	​	Copied​	​
Breakfast​	07:00​	108​	6.0​	2 x Plain 125 g Lactose free Yoghurt, Tea​
​	​	​	​	​
Post Prandial #1​	08:10​	216​	12.0​	School / Dog walk​
Post Prandial #2​	09:08​	89​	4.9​	Lifted heavy table tennis table​
Post Prandial #3​	09:45​	95​	5.3​	Feeling a bit tired / foggy, (then a bit better?)​
Post Prandial #4​	10:24​	86​	4.8​	Hungry / Stomach rumbling​

Although there is a peak of 12 it seems to be well within limits before and 2 hrs after eating.
But I feel a bit fatigued and slightly foggy

Now to see if I can avoid stuffing my face with carbs
I will try Almonds, Pumpkin seeds another yoghurt and a slice of ALDI sunflower seed bread

Are there any online continuos plots of BG levels before and after eating (I have only sampled a few points so may have missed the peak (which could be much higher?)

@Leadinglights By the way - I was listening to a Cream song from the posts on the 'what are you listening to' thread and it said in the introduction that Eric Clapton was initially a stained-glass maker!

 

[Leadinglights]

II never knew that, I shall have to look him up.
I think the reason you are feeling hungry is you had very little fat or protein in your breakfast, How many g of carb were in your yoghurt?
Normally you test 2 hours after eating aiming at no more than a 2-3mmol/l increase and no more than 8.5mmol/l so you were well within that criteria.
You could maybe add some seeds or nuts or berries to your yoghurt.

 

[Essex]

I had 2 yoghurts for Brekky, so it was a total of 10.0g Carb (10.0g sugars) (is the 'of which, sugars' bit relevant?)

I think I was hungry as I left it too long (3h 45mins) until my snack as I was experimenting
But maybe I will put some nuts in
Unfortunately I am restricted on nuts and berries due to allergies (roasted almonds and cashews are it really). Unbelievable as I grew up picking stawberries and mum was an apple picker and so we ate a lot of apples!

I just ate Almonds, Pumpkin seeds and a slice of ALDI sunflower seed bread with Becel on it (no yoghurt in the end) and a cuppa

Edit:
The birch allergen Bet v 1 often leads to cross-reactions to hazelnuts and other nuts, apples, drupes and other stone fruits, carrots and soya, while people who are allergic to mugwort or ragweed often experience allergic reactions to celery, spices, cucumbers, melons or bananas. It is important to note that cooked or baked fruit can usually be tolerated since the allergen is destroyed by heat.

 

[Leadinglights]

I had 2 yoghurts for Brekky, so it was a total of 10.0g Carb (10.0g sugars) (is the 'of which, sugars' bit relevant?)

I think I was hungry as I left it too long (3h 45mins) until my snack as I was experimenting
But maybe I will put some nuts in
Unfortunately I am restricted on nuts and berries due to allergies (roasted almonds and cashews are it really). Unbelievable as I grew up picking stawberries and mum was an apple picker and so we ate a lot of apples!

I just ate Almonds, Pumpkin seeds and a slice of ALDI sunflower seed bread with Becel on it (no yoghurt in the end) and a cuppa

Edit:
The birch allergen Bet v 1 often leads to cross-reactions to hazelnuts and other nuts, apples, drupes and other stone fruits, carrots and soya, while people who are allergic to mugwort or ragweed often experience allergic reactions to celery, spices, cucumbers, melons or bananas. It is important to note that cooked or baked fruit can usually be tolerated since the allergen is destroyed by heat.

I would just look at the total carbs as sugars are carbs.
When you are having few carbs you can increase the protein and fat otherwise you will feel hungry, and your body has to have some fuel to function.