Covid-19 response

[Dragonheart]

If you read my post further up, it was known early on in 2020 that it's gut microbiome that determines how well or not people deal with COVID. Lockdowns didn't help with COVID symptoms at all and the vaccines had a negative effect on gut microbiome hence why pe

No I didn’t watch the video as I long ago stopped paying attention to the cherry picking of data by that channel. But I don’t dispute it may have been a factor. What I doubt is your assertion that it was the ONLY factor that determined severity. You do seem to like black and white solutions and life is rarely like that

Of course lockdown didn’t deal with symptoms. Once infected isolation won’t change how the infected person reacts. Lockdown is about infection control to others, not management in the patient already sick.

As to catching Covid after vaccination perhap microbiome had an effect, I don’t know. But also the superman mentality (fundamental misunderstanding of how the vaccine worked or risks that still applied) or already exposed pre vaccination were also factors.

 

[Amity Island]

No I didn’t watch the video as I long ago stopped paying attention to the cherry picking of data by that channel. But I don’t dispute it may have been a factor. What I doubt is your assertion that it was the ONLY factor that determined severity. You do seem to like black and white solutions and life is rarely like that

Of course lockdown didn’t deal with symptoms. Once infected isolation won’t change how the infected person reacts. Lockdown is about infection control to others, not management in the patient already sick.

As to catching Covid after vaccination perhap microbiome had an effect, I don’t know. But also the superman mentality (fundamental misunderstanding of how the vaccine worked or risks that still applied) or already exposed pre vaccination were also factors.

This is the U.S hearing/testimony video I was referring too. After you have watched this see how you feel about the pandemic response. It's only 10mins long.

Post in thread 'Covid-19 response'

Jul 13, 2024

Gut Microbiome and Covid19

This is a must watch!

The Role of Bifidobacterium in COVID-19: A Systematic Review

The COVID-19 pandemic, caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus, mainly causes respiratory and intestinal symptoms and changes in the microbiota of patients. We performed a systematic search in major databases using “Bifidobacterium” and “COVID-19” ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Compared with controls (n=20), severely symptomatic SARS-CoV-2-infected patients (n=28) had significantly less bacterial diversity (Shannon Index, p=0.0499; Simpson Index, p=0.0581), and positive patients overall had lower relative abundances of Bifidobacterium (p<0.0001), Faecalibacterium (p=0.0077) and Roseburium (p=0.0327), while having increased Bacteroides (p=0.0075). Interestingly, there was an inverse association between...

• Amity Island

 

[Amity Island]

That's an advantage of not being first. One of the criticisms of the government's action (and lack of it) was that it showed an attitude of British exceptionalism: while Italy, etc., might have suffered badly, it would be different in the UK.

Should we have waited until the bodies started piling up in the UK? Given the lag time of that measure (a couple of weeks), that would have meant letting infections spread significantly, even faster than we in fact did.

Could we have slowed infections enough by smaller interventions, earlier? Stopping large sporting and other events, recommending working from home, recommending that sick people isolate, reducing the density of people in restaurants, etc.? Maybe, but the government really didn't want to do anything. Perhaps next time we'll do better, taking more limited action earlier?

Watch the video I posted above. That will answer all your points about doing nothing, acting earlier, letting infections spread. It's all about health and gut microbiome, not scotch eggs, masks and lockdowns. It's pretty clear that people's diet and health is not as good as it could be and this is what affects people's ability to deal with covid and probably lots of other health issues too.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

This is the U.S hearing/testimony video I was referring too.

Look at the participants, though? They're very much comparable to Andrew Bridgen's "Expert panel" that he proposed to police.

 

[Amity Island]

Look at the participants, though? They're very much comparable to Andrew Bridgen's "Expert panel" that he proposed to police.

It's the message (and studies and evidence) not the messenger, that's important.

Clearly gut microbiome is extremely important to our health (and ivermectin improves gut microbiome).

 

[Amity Island]

U.S schools closing, working from home and masks are back due to "covid".

Schools in two states experiencing a rise in Covid cases announced they were closing facilities and switching to remote learning.

Same old rubbish, counting "positive tests" as "cases" of covid19 disease. Where one of the symptoms of the disease is no symptoms! The vaccines don't prevent infection thus nor a positive test. We were told get the vax and get back to normal.

And...still no mention of health and preventative measures, like vit C and gut microbiome.

Covid surge forces schools to close, bring back pandemic-era measures

Two schools in Alabama and Tennessee have shuttered just days into the new term amid an 'uptick' in Covid cases, and there are fears more disruption could be in store.

www.dailymail.co.uk

NHS referrals for anxiety in children more than double pre-Covid levels

Exclusive: more than 500 children a day or one every three minutes are referred to mental health services in England

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Same old rubbish, counting "positive tests" as "cases" of covid19 disease.

Reports I've read suggest some schools have had 15-20% of staff off sick. I'm sure there's some level of people testing positive and panicking without any symptoms, I doubt that that's all that significant.

In this country authorities are worried at high levels of school absence, with sickness reported in ~50% of cases. Again, I'm not sure whether children are testing (or being tested) all that much. I think it's just as plausible that lots of children really are getting sick. There's an obvious irony in some schools responding by shutting down for a "deep clean". Being repeatedly infected with viruses isn't likely to improve health.

 

[Dragonheart]

Reports I've read suggest some schools have had 15-20% of staff off sick. I'm sure there's some level of people testing positive and panicking without any symptoms, I doubt that that's all that significant.

In this country authorities are worried at high levels of school absence, with sickness reported in ~50% of cases. Again, I'm not sure whether children are testing (or being tested) all that much. I think it's just as plausible that lots of children really are getting sick. There's an obvious irony in some schools responding by shutting down for a "deep clean". Being repeatedly infected with viruses isn't likely to improve health.

Not to mention I’ve been seeing reports of how the brain can be affected for years after - even mild infections and how unprotected kids might well have been the driver of community infections all along.

 

[Dragonheart]

U.S schools closing, working from home and masks are back due to "covid".

Schools in two states experiencing a rise in Covid cases announced they were closing facilities and switching to remote learning.

Same old rubbish, counting "positive tests" as "cases" of covid19 disease. Where one of the symptoms of the disease is no symptoms! The vaccines don't prevent infection thus nor a positive test. We were told get the vax and get back to normal.

And...still no mention of health and preventative measures, like vit C and gut microbiome.

And those positive tests mean the person has the transmittable virus even if they themselves are feeling fine. Will the person they give it to be as lucky? Will they have any aftereffects long term themselves despite feeling ok right now?

Can the school cope with lots of staff actually sick, as some of those positives will indeed be? What about having so many kids missing lessons if they are sick?

Yep there should be a lot more about prevention by healthier lifestyles. But the deniers add to the mirage of “nothing to see, no problems here” thus no need for it if that were actually true.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Can the school cope with lots of staff actually sick, as some of those positives will indeed be?

The answer is that they can't, of course, which is why they're forced to close for a few days.

What we ought to be doing is improving air quality in schools (and other public buildings), but that needs spending money. Also, it would need us to stop pretending that repeatedly infecting people is the best policy so long as they're children.

(Improving air quality would also help reduce flu, colds, etc.)

 

[Amity Island]

The answer is that they can't, of course, which is why they're forced to close for a few days.

The answer is improved diet/health, gut microbiome, vit C, D, Zinc etc

 

[Bruce Stephens]

The answer is improved diet/health, gut microbiome, vit C, D, Zinc etc

And Hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin, Azithromycin. Because she's definitely credible and not a doctor very much on the fringes.

(Nobody disputes that the gut microbiome is significant for health, and diet and general health is obviously important. What's much less clear is how much changing the gut microbiome would help with an infection like SARS-CoV-2. Similarly, very low vitamin C, vitamin D are bad, but how much does supplementation help, particularly in people who don't have normal levels? In contrast, the vaccines were well tested (in large placebo controlled RCTs), and we have good antiviral medications like Paxlovid. We should be using all those much more, along with improving air quality (and diet, and improving water quality so people can swim safely).)

(Here's one review that came up when I searched for her name,

https://www.reddit.com/r/ImmunoPsychiatry/comments/yxs8ip/bad_experience_with_dr_sabine_hazan_shes_a_scammer

)

 

[Amity Island]

And Hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin, Azithromycin. Because she's definitely credible and not a doctor very much on the fringes.

(Nobody disputes that the gut microbiome is significant for health, and diet and general health is obviously important. What's much less clear is how much changing the gut microbiome would help with an infection like SARS-CoV-2. Similarly, very low vitamin C, vitamin D are bad, but how much does supplementation help, particularly in people who don't have normal levels? In contrast, the vaccines were well tested (in large placebo controlled RCTs), and we have good antiviral medications like Paxlovid. We should be using all those much more, along with improving air quality (and diet, and improving water quality so people can swim safely).)

(Here's one review that came up when I searched for her name,

https://www.reddit.com/r/ImmunoPsychiatry/comments/yxs8ip/bad_experience_with_dr_sabine_hazan_shes_a_scammer

)

Scammer? You're posting about credible, professionals who worked on the front line during covid! Dr Hazan has a huge list of peer reviewed published articles. She was one of the first in the world to decode the entire sarscov2 virus.

Here's just one of them.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://bmjopengastro.bmj.com/content/bmjgast/9/1/e000871.full.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjFkMW-4pyIAxWr2QIHHb0zMEMQFnoECEQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw24KYWhoK2TF2d83uKeo1R_

 

[Dragonheart]

The answer is improved diet/health, gut microbiome, vit C, D, Zinc etc

It certainly would help with a whole heap of health issues.

But it can’t achieve miracles instantly in the middle of an Covid outbreak. If the school has insufficient staff or half the student population are taken down by it they have little choice but to close. (Some assumptions there on my part but not crazy ones as to possible reasons they may have taken those choices).

What we ought to be doing is improving air quality in schools (and other public buildings), but that needs spending money. Also, it would need us to stop pretending that repeatedly infecting people is the best policy so long as they're children.

(Improving air quality would also help reduce flu, colds, etc.)

Whereas this would help both long term on multiple health fronts and instantly to mitigate some transmission in the middle of an outbreak

 

[Amity Island]

It certainly would help with a whole heap of health issues.

But it can’t achieve miracles instantly in the middle of an Covid outbreak. If the school has insufficient staff or half the student population are taken down by it they have little choice but to close. (Some assumptions there on my part but not crazy ones as to possible reasons they may have taken those choices).

The incredible health benefits of gut microbiome have been known for perhaps hundreds if not thousands of years. No excuses.

They absolutely hammered the message on the "no treatment, cures, prevention for covid19" right from the outset. This "no treatment or cure" message was never true as gut microbiome is known to be effective against COVID19 and many other things.

The locked us in, ruined education, businesses, prevented studies etc, silenced contrary opinion. They then shamed, coerced, bribed and ridiculed, divided families and friends, sacked people.

To me the only aim of the entire confected (knowingly or unwittingly) response was to get people jabbed, nothing else. Of course, a few made their millions along the way.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

gut microbiome is known to be effective against COVID19

How effective? What intervention, specifically, would you have recommended, and for who, and how much difference do you estimate it would have made?

 

[Amity Island]

How effective? What intervention, specifically, would you have recommended, and for who, and how much difference do you estimate it would have made?

Well if they had let doctors do their studies then the world would (should) have known. instead they absolutely hammered the "no treatment, nothing exists for covid19" and completely ignored natural immunity. Hancock even told parliament that there is no evidence vitamin d helps. They just were not interested. Anti science. Every effort was made to not find or try things that did or might of helped.

If someone died within 28 days of just a positive test alone (not even having had COVID) they were classed as a COVID death, but; if someone died within 28 days of a covid vaccine, they were classed as unvaccinated, and hence added to the unvaccinated (likely COVID) death count.

I'm sure this will all be covered in the new book out this week. https://wherearethenumbers.substack.com/p/our-book-out-now-fighting-goliath

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Well if they had let doctors do their studies then the world would (should) have known.

Known what, though? It seems to me quite plausible that what's being proposed here (some combination of HCQ (or IVM) together with vitamin C, D, Azithromycin, though I've no doubt different doctors proposed slightly different regimes), when trialed would have changed people's gut biomes, quite likely increasing the particular bacterium mentioned.

It seems plausible that might have had a positive effect. It seems just as plausible that it might have had a negative effect or no measurable effect at all, just leaving the side effects (which aren't necessarily trivial) from HCQ or IVM.

I'm sure this will all be covered in the new book out this week. https://wherearethenumbers.substack.com/p/our-book-out-now-fighting-goliath

When I heard Norman Fenton on an interview (maybe one of Campbell's) he was (it seemed to me) being obviously deceptive. I don't remember Martin Neil. Any book recommended by RFK Jr is surely not going to be a positive addition to the world.

 

[Amity Island]

Known what, though?

There was too much anti-science going on to even want to try and find this out. We were all brainwashed with there is no solution, no treatment nothing we can do, when in fact this was simply not the case. The only solution anybody was allowed to consider was novel vaccines, that's it.

Nonetheless, the paper I linked to said this.

"The results of this systematic review indicate that there is an intrinsic relationship between Bifidobacterium and COVID-19. The studies showed that COVID-19 is associated with changes in the gut and nasal microbiome, including a decrease in the abundance of Bifidobacterium. The presence of Bifidobacterium was associated with a reduced risk of severe COVID-19."

The Role of Bifidobacterium in COVID-19: A Systematic Review

The COVID-19 pandemic, caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus, mainly causes respiratory and intestinal symptoms and changes in the microbiota of patients. We performed a systematic search in major databases using “Bifidobacterium” and “COVID-19” ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Bruce Stephens]

"The results of this systematic review indicate that there is an intrinsic relationship between Bifidobacterium and COVID-19. The studies showed that COVID-19 is associated with changes in the gut and nasal microbiome, including a decrease in the abundance of Bifidobacterium. The presence of Bifidobacterium was associated with a reduced risk of severe COVID-19."

Yes, I read the paper. Unless I misread it, it showed that more severe infections lead to lower Bifidobacterium levels.

Obviously, what we really want to know is whether changing them in advance can change the course of illness (and how feasible such changes are, particularly at scale). The paper poses a couple of questions, one is that, and the other is whether changing the gut microbiome (by increasing Bifidobacterium) might influence recovery (perhaps reducing long term effects from infection). It doesn't seek to answer those questions, though.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that making those changes in the gut microbiome of a population would be hard, and that it would make at best marginal changes to the outcome of this (and any other) illnesses. If a part of the intervention meant giving everyone (or large parts of a population) an antibiotic like Azithromycin that would have an obvious risk which would need to be balanced with whatever benefit there might be.

The only solution anybody was allowed to consider was novel vaccines, that's it.

That's not true. Vaccines are the natural thing to look for when you're looking at an infectious disease, and obviously they need to be novel because it's a novel virus. The choice of vaccine platforms was just about timing: you want a vaccine as quickly as possible, and viral vector and mRNA technologies can provide vaccines faster than others. Even if Ivermectin really worked, you don't want to be taking it long term.

Did people look for other things? Most definitely they did. Hence steroids which can reduce the rate of death when used at the right time, changes to treatment (so using less invasive ventilation, proneing, etc.), antivirals like Paxlovid which (if used early enough) can reduce hospitalisation rates by ~85% even when you include vaccinated people. Also a bunch of other things which looked promising but unfortunately seemed not to work out like fluvoxamine. Metformin (against long covid) seems to me to be still on the margin (might help, might not) but people are very much still looking.

What seems most peculiar to me is that in the UK (and some other countries) we're diving headlong into the idea that being infected in childhood is safe and will provide sufficient protection to adults. The theory was raised early that the virus might end up like the other cold-producing coronaviruses and we seem to be assuming it will happen and we should make sure that as many children get infected as often as possible.

I'm not sure why this virus might not instead stay like SARS1 and MERS and just be a (sometimes) very nasty virus (even for children and young, fit adults) that we can (fortunately) vaccinate against.