Boris Johnson announces new 4-week England lockdown November 5 to December 2

[mikeyB]

Exactly. If the government treat us as unbiddable children, we will behave as such. The same effect that the government wants from this lockdown would be achievable with the compulsory wearing of masks outdoors and in shops and offices,
developing habits of hand sterilization, with addition of distancing. It costs the government nothing. Let the public police themselves.

And stop paying companies and workers for staying away from work. Nobody has ever closed down with a flu epidemic. And i would have thought anyone with Covid would have the sense to stay off work. That's what statutory sick pay is for. It won't spread round an office with the correct distancing and mask wearing.

Would Covid run wild if you did all that? Well, it affected far less than 1% of the population before anybody took any notice, and then the mad panic set in. But the government told everyone that wearing masks was a waste of effort. Everybody was focussed on the now largely debunked idea that you could catch the virus from surfaces and thereby get the disease, which just had the public sterilising their shopping. That action flies in the face of sense - unpack your shopping, then sterilise your hands. It's the chaotic advice and later u-turns that kept coming from government that has led to the greater number of deaths from this illness, and I include the latest lockdown in that. There was growing evidence that the tiered restrictions were bringing down infection rates, in those areas that were on higher restrictions.

So what we have is a population stuck at home again, made paranoid by the government whether you live in a high risk or very low risk area. Madness. I blame Dominic Cummings, he does Johnsons thinking for him.

 

[Docb]

Generally agree with your approach @mikeyB but I think there are a couple of issues that need a bit more thought.

I see why you are comparing the reaction to covid to the reaction to flu. By comparing it to other things you can get a perspective. Trouble with comparing it to flu is that you diffuse the perspective because that approach will invariably end up arguing about clinical detail and sight of the basic point is soon lost. I wonder whether a comparison with what are considered perfectly acceptable risks in something completely unrelated might be more sensible. One thing that comes to mind is road transport where deaths and disability from accidents and pollution is considered a reasonable price to pay for the convenience of getting around quickly. There the risk is controlled by regulation rather than wholesale panic.

When it comes to masks you, with a medical background, and me with a nuclear background, think of things a bit differently to most. If offered something knocked up from grannies old curtains (I exaggerate to make the point) when working we would have laughed at it and asked for something that had been proven to work and some clear instruction on how to use it. I am sure the directions would not have finished up with an instruction to shove it in a pocket until you need it again and reuse until either you lose it on the street or the elastic breaks. To my mind, if you are going to use masking as a primary route to reduce transmission a lot more attention has to be put on getting people to understand how to use it to its best effect. The something is better than nothing approach does not work for me when you leave the realm of marginal gains and look for large benefits.

Absolutely agree that treating the population as grown up and providing information which they can work with to get their own risks to a level they are comfortable with. It is far better than getting drawn into mind bending arguments from trying to tell people what they can and cannot do.

I share your lack of confidence in the current bunch in charge. Trouble is, I am yet to be convinced that the alternatives would be that much better.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

There are lots of chin hammock wearers around here.

And many high profile examples of people in positions of government and authority taking lengthy journeys (including up and down to Scotland!) on public transport.

Not to mention those who fall through the cracks of financial support, and whose zero-hours employment means they will continue to work whether tested positive, or symptomatic.

Large groups of youngsters gathering, drinking and partying throughout the initial lockdown whose drinking and toilet habits needed various sections of the harbourside here to be fenced off.

Alas it seems that relying on good old fashioned common sense is less than successful

 

[Eddy Edson]

There are lots of chin hammock wearers around here.

And many high profile examples of people in positions of government and authority taking lengthy journeys (including up and down to Scotland!) on public transport.

Not to mention those who fall through the cracks of financial support, and whose zero-hours employment means they will continue to work whether tested positive, or symptomatic.

Large groups of youngsters gathering, drinking and partying throughout the initial lockdown whose drinking and toilet habits needed various sections of the harbourside here to be fenced off.

Alas it seems that relying on good old fashioned common sense is less than successful

It's not pleasant, but I think you need a level of enforcement to make a lockdwn work.

 

[mikeydt1]

not sure what is going on in Leeds as the rate of infection is still increasing, still early days though.