• Please Remember: Members are only permitted to share their own experiences. Members are not qualified to give medical advice. Additionally, everyone manages their health differently. Please be respectful of other people's opinions about their own diabetes management.
  • We seem to be having technical difficulties with new user accounts. If you are trying to register please check your Spam or Junk folder for your confirmation email. If you still haven't received a confirmation email, please reach out to our support inbox: support.forum@diabetes.org.uk

Bloody pen!

Status
This thread is now closed. Please contact Anna DUK, Ieva DUK or everydayupsanddowns if you would like it re-opened.
Thank you. The problem is I do not know what I want to happen! There may be a good reason for what they are doing, but it is not being able to understand it and why that makes me feel distressed about it all.

Following the blood tests I thought it all made sense, but the way they are treating it makes me think I must have got that wrong. So it might be that for my situation there is no better flexibility and I just need to learn to live with it.

The call should be before 1:30pm, so I am just sitting here anxiously waiting.
I think it sounds like you do know what you want to happen - you want to understand whether a mealtime insulin would give you more flexibility in meals, or to understand why you are only taking a background insulin. Leading with the most important objective (to understand x or request prescription for y or test S or whatever) I’ve found to lead to a more focused and productive conversation than leading with the background, so worth considering.
 
So I have spoken to the nurse, and it sort-of went the exact opposite of what I expected.

My HbA1c is down to 6.5% / 48 mmol/mol, I have only put on 1Kg since I was weighed in December, and despite all that the nurse agreed I am on the wrong regimen!

I was so confused by those numbers, and in having to explain about splitting my dose, meant I brought up all my main talking points. Although I never got to the issue of plastic waste as it would be redundant if my prescription is changing anyway.

Although afterwards I realized I made a mistake with my HbA1c expectation. I forgot that though it covered two months of taking insulin, it started when titrating from 10u rather than my usual dose. I have not been that low since 2017! After that things started creeping up, which in hindsight is presumably when my pancreatic output started going down.

But the weight is very confusing. I feel so much bigger yet it has only gone up 2lbs, so maybe that says something about my perception? My clothes do still fit, but I would swear they no longer do so as well as they used to. Will need time to process this.

Anyway, the nurse felt I should be on either a twice-a-day insulin or multi-dose regimen, although she could not help clarify what my diabetes actually is. But I now have an in-person appointment next month where there will be a consultant who can review things. So hopefully I can get confirmation then, as well as find out what my new prescription will be.

After all the problems I have had trying to get help over the last sixteen months, the only times things have seemed positive is when the diabetic nurses have been making the decisions.
Just read this one. Sounds like it went well! I’d choose a seperate basal and bolus insulin if it’s flexibility you’re after, with reusable pens.
 
I am genuinely incapable of not leading with background, when I try to express things I can only make sense of them to myself in a linear fashion. Because of how I felt was linked to the inflexibility and confusion around my diagnosis, to raise that today I literally went back to my diagnosis! Admittedly doing that does not always work too well, but I cannot do it any other way. Though I think it helped today given the outcome.

Maybe though I am wrong in assuming, for example, that in talking about why I find the current arrangement inflexible that it will be understood I would also like it to be more flexible? Assuming that that is even possible, so I cannot ask for something until I know it is something I can ask for. There may have been a good reason for my prescription and why other regimens are not suitable. Besides, had I just said I wanted something more flexible, she would have asked how or why, and then I still would be left having to go back to my diagnosis to answer. Everything begins at the beginning, at least for me.

As for options, I am still not sure which is best. One is a lot easier to manage, but the other a lot more flexible. Will have to see what the consultant says first, as it probably depends on my diagnosis. A twice-daily insulin may give enough flexibility, I am sceptical but will take the expert advice on that. But if I am L.A.D.A. then it is inevitable I will have to switch to M.D.I. at some point, so I may as well start now.
 
I am genuinely incapable of not leading with background, when I try to express things I can only make sense of them to myself in a linear fashion. Because of how I felt was linked to the inflexibility and confusion around my diagnosis, to raise that today I literally went back to my diagnosis! Admittedly doing that does not always work too well, but I cannot do it any other way. Though I think it helped today given the outcome.

Maybe though I am wrong in assuming, for example, that in talking about why I find the current arrangement inflexible that it will be understood I would also like it to be more flexible? Assuming that that is even possible, so I cannot ask for something until I know it is something I can ask for. There may have been a good reason for my prescription and why other regimens are not suitable. Besides, had I just said I wanted something more flexible, she would have asked how or why, and then I still would be left having to go back to my diagnosis to answer. Everything begins at the beginning, at least for me.

As for options, I am still not sure which is best. One is a lot easier to manage, but the other a lot more flexible. Will have to see what the consultant says first, as it probably depends on my diagnosis. A twice-daily insulin may give enough flexibility, I am sceptical but will take the expert advice on that. But if I am L.A.D.A. then it is inevitable I will have to switch to M.D.I. at some point, so I may as well start now.
I think it is a bit naive to assume that by explaining the background to your problems e.g. finding things inflexible would lead a HCP to assume that you want more flexibility. Diabetes isn’t like any other condition where you just follow what HCPs tell you, with diabetes you have to be the leader of your care and explain what you’d like to try or what you’d like to understand more.

A DSN or consultant I can’t believe would have any idea whether basal only, mixed or seperate basal bolus insulin’s would fit into your life better, they just don’t know your lifestyle well enough, it’s an individual decision for you to make. When I started insulin it was certainly expected that I choose what I wanted to use between basal, mixed and basal/bolus insulin’s. The DSN could give me some ideas eg with mixed it’s only two injections and you need to eat set things at set times every day, with basal bolus it’s more injections but no set eating times, etc, but she couldn’t advise which was best suited to me, I had to choose which to go for.
 
I guess this is another thing I probably misunderstood, but I assumed by a twice-a-day insulin the nurse still meant one with a constant profile rather than a mixed one. Essentially allowing me to do what I am doing now but with more control over it. I do not think I would want a mixed one. It seems less flexible anyway, but I would find eating at fixed times to be very difficult.

This is why I need to understand my diagnosis better. How I understood my C-Peptide result, and levels and behaviour requiring it, was that I have no problem producing a basal insulin, it is the extra required after eating which i can no longer provide. How can I say what I want or would work best if I do not even know what the problem is?

And I am probably not making myself understood, but flexibility to me has nothing to do with lifestyle but how much control I have in managing my levels. I am finding a 24 hour insulin to be inflexible because when taking it I have to decide a dose in advance of knowing what I need. I do not know how I may feel later, whether something will restrict my chance to eat, not the the body's randomness that may give higher or lower levels than expected.

So flexibility means being able to adapt it to my needs, rather than having to do things to suit the behaviour of the insulin, particularly where I feel I need to eat to keep my levels up. Which is especially a problem with the D.V.L.A. rules where I need to keep them 5 or above.

However the doctor who approved my current insulin had all my details, so there must be a reason why they decided a long acting insulin was suitable for my situation. So maybe a flat profile insulin but with a shorter duration may still be recommended to provide flexibility but achieve the benefit of their original decision? But I am not trained in pharmacology and the endocrine system, so surely only a specialist nurse or consultant would know much better than me what treatments would best suit the needs of my body. No matter how much I read and understand the options in general, it does not apply them to my situation. Especially when I do not know what that is!
 
Can't have an insulin that has a constant profile as there isn't one.
 
Admittedly I am not aware of all the intermediate options, but on the graphs I have seen the profile of glargine is literally a straight line, obviously apart from the very beginning and end.
 
Glargine is anything but flat! It has a noticeable peak of activity at about 5 hours. Are you confusing it with Tresiba which is pretty close to a flat line. What you have to realise is that whilst these are insulin profiles, the individual needs can be far from a flat line, so it is not always ideal to have a basal insulin which gives you that. For me Tresiba would be disastrous as I need much more insulin during the morning and almost none at night, so if I used Tresiba I would either be massively high in the morning or hypo every night. Split dose Levemir suits me because I can have 22 units in the morning and just 3 units at night and adjust those individually to deal with any exercise I have done that day or the previous day. For me there is an almost constant adjustment of basal dose as I struggle to follow any sort of routine with eating sleeping and activity. Levemir gives me the flexibility to manage that in a way that no other basal insulin would.
 
Glargine is anything but flat! It has a noticeable peak of activity at about 5 hours. Are you confusing it with Tresiba which is pretty close to a flat line. What you have to realise is that whilst these are insulin profiles, the individual needs can be far from a flat line, so it is not always ideal to have a basal insulin which gives you that. For me Tresiba would be disastrous as I need much more insulin during the morning and almost none at night, so if I used Tresiba I would either be massively high in the morning or hypo every night. Split dose Levemir suits me because I can have 22 units in the morning and just 3 units at night and adjust those individually to deal with any exercise I have done that day or the previous day. For me there is an almost constant adjustment of basal dose as I struggle to follow any sort of routine with eating sleeping and activity. Levemir gives me the flexibility to manage that in a way that no other basal insulin would.
This is exactly why tresiba didn’t work for me but lantus does. I need no insulin at 5pm or I go low. Taking lantus at 5-6pm means I have the gap where it doesn’t last 24 hrs at the time I go low. When I tried tresiba it was a nightmare as I was always low at 5pm and high on the morning as it has a flat profile which isn’t what many peoples bodies need. For others they get on better with something very flat though.
 
Glargine is anything but flat! It has a noticeable peak of activity at about 5 hours. Are you confusing it with Tresiba which is pretty close to a flat line.

No, definitely glargine. I have attached the sorts of graphs I was thinking of, not all are as straight as those, but many are similar. Even Lilly's graph from their Abasaglar booklet which has a very slight peak after six hours is still pretty flat compared to other profile graphs.

Screenshot 2021-05-26 at 9.53.34 pm.png
But literally everything I have read refers to the lack of a peak with it. And which seems to be an intentional consequence of how it is released. To quote wikipedia: "This gradual process ensures that small amounts of insulin glargine are released into the body continuously, giving an almost peakless profile."

Although it also says "It is typically the recommended long acting insulin in the United Kingdom" in the introduction and then that "It is not typically the recommended long acting insulin in the United Kingdom" under Medical uses. So maybe not the best sourced, but easier to link to than various N.H.S. local trusts' PDFs.

 

Attachments

  • iu-1.jpeg
    iu-1.jpeg
    19.4 KB · Views: 3
  • iu.jpeg
    iu.jpeg
    14.1 KB · Views: 2
  • iu.png
    iu.png
    40.3 KB · Views: 3
To quote wikipedia: "This gradual process ensures that small amounts of insulin glargine are released into the body continuously, giving an almost peakless profile."

I think there are a lot of people who have used Lantus/Glargine who would dispute that wiki quote and the graphs you have evidenced, but even so, the body rarely needs a uniform level of insulin over a 24hr period. It is a beautiful but messy biological system and there is very little which is uniform about how it works
 
Apart from a few hypos when I would normally be doing a fasting reading anyway, the only times I have had any since starting it was in the 3pm hour. Which happened today, so made me wonder what that could say about its profile.

But they occurred both when taking a single dose at 10pm and now splitting with almost half taken at 10am instead. I do not think I am hypoing at 3am, and since going up to 38u I have constantly woken up in the 4s. Lower than I wanted, but for a while when I had settled on 34u I was still getting half of my morning readings above my target of 6 or under, which is why I started increasing it a little further.

After being 3.3 at around 3:15pm, I had a few cola straws which raised me to 5.4. But as I had not eaten anything today I thought I should eat something properly, so had some mash and a kind-of vegetable stew (an attempt at a slow cooker hotpot which sort-of worked, sort-of did not) as they were leftovers in the fridge so only needed heating. Two hours later I was 11.6, then three hours after that I was 2.3. And I thought we had an understanding!

So maybe the 3 o'clock thing is just a coincidence after all.
 
…part of me already hates the amount of plastic waste of throwing out empty ones.

It occurred to me today when throwing another one out, why do they all have lids? In a box of five pens you will normally only be using one at a time, so surely only one needs to come with a lid that can then be reused with the others.

Providing them that way would be an 80% reduction in that part of the waste they produce, and if the lids are important to seal the stored pens then surely a paper tab would be better.

Maybe something for Diabetes U.K. to campaign for?

Mind, maybe pressure should also be put on the N.H.S. to not prescribe disposable pens unless there is a particular reason to require them, Though as the England and Wales tariff shows disposable pens and cartridges costing the same, it is not surprising if they prescribe the former to save on the extra cost of reusable pens.
 
@Becka I think this graph that you shared shows the peak after.5 hours that @rebrascora refers to.
The insulin activity rises over the first 5 hours and then settles to a flattish profile after about 7 hours.
For some, this peak between 5 and 7 hours can be very pronounced - as with everything else diabetes-related we are all different.
1623414993916.png

This is exactly why tresiba didn’t work for me but lantus does. I need no insulin at 5pm or I go low.
The other "benefit" of Tresiba which causes problems for some people is it lasts up to 3 days. This means it can take 3 days after changing the dose for it to appear to take affect.
This can be an issue for women who have different insulin requirements during their monthly cycle.
 
@Becka I think this graph that you shared shows the peak after.5 hours that @rebrascora refers to.
The insulin activity rises over the first 5 hours and then settles to a flattish profile after about 7 hours.
For some, this peak between 5 and 7 hours can be very pronounced - as with everything else diabetes-related we are all different.

Sorry, without wanting to sound rude, but how are you not just repeating back to me what I said that it shows "a very slight peak after six hours" while ignoring that "it is still pretty flat compared to other profile graphs"? You sound like you are telling me off by agreeing with me and taking it out of context?

I was posting the graph to disagree with the statement that "Glargine is anything but flat! It has a noticeable peak of activity at about 5 hours." So you want to argue that people react differently then you are telling the wrong person as I never claimed otherwise. The graphs show that, for most people, it is claimed to have a flat profile.

The Eli Lilly graph shows a peak in the same way that a hillock and a mountain both have peaks. but no one will be impressed by you reaching the summit of the former. Which is disappointing with my health, I am more worried about my upcoming lung function test being okay because walking uphill seems to be getting harder.

And I would still say that such a peak is not the case for me. Even with my random 3pm-ish hypos coincidently being five hours after I take it in the morning, they started when I was only take it at night, so was seventeen hours later. And more recently, since splitting it, I seem to have been hypoing around 8pm which would be ten and twenty-two hours later. Between the D.V.L.A. required testing and the extra the nurse asked me to do for the consultant I cannot see any time of day being worse or better than any other. Unlike day-to-day where seems inconsistent.
 
Anyway, the nurse felt I should be on either a twice-a-day insulin or multi-dose regimen, although she could not help clarify what my diabetes actually is. But I now have an in-person appointment next month where there will be a consultant who can review things. So hopefully I can get confirmation then, as well as find out what my new prescription will be.

It is next month! And I saw the consultant, who referred me to speak to him! I am sure the diabetes writers will run out of cliffhangers eventually and will have provide a conclusion, but for now I should get an appointment to see him at the hospital sometime in the next month.

Some of the issues have been resolved though, which is that part of the appointment will be to start me on a short acting insulin. Which, as he said, is the important thing: to get the right treatment regardless of type. I forgot to ask about stopping tablets too, I take so many I would love to do so, but M.D.I. treatment seems to be an end point rather that the 'see if this helps' approach which has been essentially the case with everything else.

He also wants to switch Abasaglar for Levemir, not liking me taking Abasaglar twice daily (nor do I!) though he agreed with the reason why I did it. It was a pretty good experience, he wanted to go over the history to get a full background of what has been happening, which is exactly how I think. So I felt I got to explain everything and he understood it all.

The only thing I did not entirely understand is that he both disagreed and agreed with my original understanding of the C-peptide result, as meaning I can produce background insulin but not extra. He did point out that was a one-off result so I think his disagreement was with drawing conclusions from a single test. A proper twice daily basal insulin makes a lot more sense than overlapping a longer term one, though I am still not clear on why I need one at all.

But the other part of the hospital appointment will be to do some more tests, so it was not worth trying to worry about that now. My diabetes is not typical though, he said, which is annoying but ironically typical. When I was first referred for my arthritis all the tests came back negative until the ultrasound, and the lung condition and diabetes discovered in the process were both without symptoms. So having anti-bodies to give a simple explanation was never likely.

For now though, things just carry on as they are with Abasaglar twice daily until the appointment. Although he wants me to reduce the dose as though he is concerned by the post-prandial levels he is more concerned by the hypos. Particularly having had six since May 31st, so I already reduced the dose after the first four in as many days. I had put that sudden increase down to the hot weather.

It definitely highlights the point about inflexibility though, as only two of those came when I had not eaten. Meanwhile yesterday I felt I could not eat at night when I tested with a 7.1 fasting level after recent results going too high after eating. It may be a difficult month taking at least four units fewer. I am now down to 30 units in total, and when I was at that amount while titrating to get morning levels under 6 my fasting averages were 6.4 and 8.7. As much as I struggle in this weather, hopefully it will stay around to help me!

The other thing of note is my HbA1c has reduced slightly from 6.5% to 62% / 44 mmol/mol. Yay hypos! But the nurse did the test while I was there using a sample from my finger instead of needing a lab. I have not experienced that before.

Things feel very slow moving having been trying to get help for over a year and still a least month away from a confirmed diagnosis and the right treatment. But one year ago today my fasting levels were 16.3 and 15.3. This morning I was 4.9, then a 6.9 at the clinic not yet having eaten anything. So it is almost over. Apart, obviously, from it then never being over.
 
So pleased that you are getting somewhere at last and the consultant listened to you and understood your situation and you will be starting MDI next month. I know it seems like a long time to wait but it will come round in no time. Good luck keeping your levels half reasonable in the mean time.
 
At last things are going in the right direction for you .
I understand fully that you want the right diagnosis but imo at the mo it’s imo it’s it is more important to be on the right treatment , to me that means the one that works the best .

I spent a few years on MDI as a T2 . I soon realised that i did not have the usual garden variety of T2 but as I was doing so well, mainly due to the folks here and the Bertie online course I wasn’t bothered what type I actually had, till one day someone who should have known better , made one comment too many so I had the C- peptide test and bobs your uncle lol.

When you do go onto MDI , as you may know, it’s going to take a while for them to sort out what ratios you need for your bolus and how much Basal you need, so they will do lots of tweaking. Y

I have read on here that many who have had T1 for years are still producing some home brew insulin , maybe not enough to do much good. My beta cells are more active atm and for some reason the seem to love the cold weather, becoming even more active , I do like to be different lol.

I trust you find the Levemir suits you far better.
 
Thank you both.

I am not sure but I think I may have had a C-peptide test when I was first diagnosed as there was initial confusion over the type. And the consultant today thought an HbA1c of 11.1% / 99 mmol/mol for a coincidental diagnosis was quite high. I am so bad at this I cannot even do having symptoms!

But I also remember returning to the surgery after they did the confirmatory blood tests (the original ones were for a different condition) and them saying they are not sure of the type and doing a urine test (presumably for ketones) wile I waited before saying it was type 2.

But yes, the main purpose of the diagnosis is just to get the right treatment, and that part seems settled now. Apart from all the effort of discovering and learning that will be required to manage it. Eek! So mainly it is only my need to understand things why I need to know. Though I suppose it could have a practical impact because the N.H.S. manage the types differently.

I suppose now I never will find out whether the nurse's reference to a twice-daily insulin meant a mixed one or just something shorter acting as the consultant never mentioned that option. Although the nurse never presented them as options to choose between but as alternatives to my current treatment, and that I needed to see a consultant to work out what he best.

He only mentioned M.D.I. treatment, though several times asking me if I would be okay with that so I guess I could have refused it. But a mixed insulin would really too difficult to structure my life around, and I think my post-prandial levels and hypos would rule out Levemir alone as being much of an improvement.

But I had already accepted the inevitability of needing to bolus last autumn based on the C-peptide test. Just a shame it took everyone else so long to catch up!

Guess I am going to need to research apps and stuff now. Hopefully they will offer some kind of course. I assume so as it only took about a month after diagnosis to attend a DESMOND one, so they seem keen to offer education. Though that one was of little help for me, and that was the only support offered. So I had to self learn what was relevant to me, such as anything at all to do with hypos.

I was a little surprised today how concerned the consultant was with having them as they were never seen as such a problem (in terms of just happening, had they been a daily occurrence I am sure they would have acted) when managed by G.P.s and regular nurses at the surgery when on Gliclazide. Which, I guess if both the difference between specialist and general care, but also what gets overlooked when you just have to learn for yourself as you go.
 
I go through phases where I have 2 hypos a day and sometimes more and then I go through spells where my levels are stubbornly high and I am constantly injecting corrections and it is almost a relief when I eventually hypo because I am so sick of being stuck at 10, usually as a result of a rage bolus. The other times when my basal dose is just right, things tick along beautifully for a few days and then I am back to double figures and corrections again. Thankfully my consultant doesn't pull me up about hypos and I don't have bad ones because I eat low carb but I try to keep within the Libre guidance of no more than 3% but usually fail a little bit, but then Libre generally reads lower than BG..... Anyway, talking of Libre, that is something that having a Type 1 diagnosis would be beneficial for, so fingers crossed they do eventually get you the right label.
 
Status
This thread is now closed. Please contact Anna DUK, Ieva DUK or everydayupsanddowns if you would like it re-opened.
Back
Top