better with or without medication?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Adrienne said:
Sorry but I haven't mentioned type 1 at all. There is choice, there is always choice but obviously my help as a mum of a child with type 1 is not wanted on this thread as you have clearly said I only know about 1 and not 2 and I will bow out graciously. Please excuse my ignorance on the matter.
Click to expand...
Hi again Adrienne,

I wasn't meaning anything like that at all and I'm very sorry that you have taken it that way. Please accept my apologies.

I was simply trying to say that dealing with insulin dependent Type 1 situation is very different to dealing with a non-insulin dependent Type 2 situation.

Sorry once again.

Very best wishes - John
 
Wally
Type 2s have very few options really other than diet to keep blood glucose levels down.
Click to expand...
annie
I do have porridge which seems to suit me as after breakfast the dog gets a 3-4 mile walk.
Click to expand...

As Adrienne mentioned and annie demonstrates, exercise is a really important tool tool in the BG control armoury.
Most sources for type 2 treatments talk about diet and exercise being the first line of treatment.

Even though I use insulin , where possible I use exercise to lower an unexpected high rather than a correction dose. I also find it important better though to do it on a regular basis.... it doesn't have to be that strenuous but it does need to be sustained like annies 3-4 mile walk. It improves insulin sensitivity .
If I'm lazy and miss a couple of days I become more insulin resistant. I wake up with a higher fasting level and will need to take more insulin with meals until I get going again .
 
HelenM said:
Wally

annie


As Adrienne mentioned and annie demonstrates, exercise is a really important tool tool in the BG control armoury.
Most sources for type 2 treatments talk about diet and exercise being the first line of treatment.

Even though I use insulin , where possible I use exercise to lower an unexpected high rather than a correction dose. I also find it important better though to do it on a regular basis.... it doesn't have to be that strenuous but it does need to be sustained like annies 3-4 mile walk. It improves insulin sensitivity .
If I'm lazy and miss a couple of days I become more insulin resistant. I wake up with a higher fasting level and will need to take more insulin with meals until I get going again .
Click to expand...

Hi helen,
Metformin is also an option for T1s you know. It makes their insulin work harder and so is said to have an "insulin-sparing" quality - they use less as a a result.
If you are IR as well as T1 you could have "Double Diabetes".
 
wallycorker said:
Hi again Adrienne,

I wasn't meaning anything like that at all and I'm very sorry that you have taken it that way. Please accept my apologies.

I was simply trying to say that dealing with insulin dependent Type 1 situation is very different to dealing with a non-insulin dependent Type 2 situation.

Sorry once again.

Very best wishes - John
Click to expand...

No problem John.

I don't often throw the toys out the pram but I was only helping and even though my daughter is treated like a type 1 diabetic, I do also know about type 2 but moreover I have a very vast knowledge of what food can do to blood sugars whether 1, 2 or neither. I totally know that type 1 is different to type 2, which is why I am part of a campaign to get the names changed as they should not be called the same thing but I personally believe I am more than qualified to help either where food is concerned. I cannot help with tablets as I know nothing about them and so I wouldn't dream of helping, but diet I know about.
 
Thanks for that Adrienne - I'm grateful for your kind words you make me feel a little bit better.

The point I think that Im trying to make is that Carina told us in her original post that her blood glucose levels are too high and she wants them lower. Because of that and in my opinion only, it doesn't seem a good idea that we should advise her to keep eating bread on a regular basis. Why? Because we know that bread will send her blood glucose levels even higher - just like porridge does too.

I think that you and Jessica use bread and porridge to try to keep her blood glucose levels from going too low. Carina is wanting her blood glucose levels lower so the logical way to achieve that is to cut some of the bread out of her diet. As you also know, Carina and me have no insulin or medication that we can use to offset or lower our blood glucose levels - we can only do that through diet.

I do accept that exercise will offer help to people but only if it is connected with dietary changes to eat less sugar and carbohydrate. However, I think that any real advantage would be in the longer term rather the shorter term - and any real effect on blood glucose levels would need more than the few minutes a day a few times a week to have much effect. I can't really say that exercise has featured very much at all in my improvement programme. I do try to do a little ordinary walking - but not very much and not often enough. I would wholeheartedly accept that really I ought to do very much more.

However, I consider that I have normalised my blood glucose levels almost entirely through changing my diet to eat less starchy carbohydrate - i.e. cereals, bread, potatoes, rice and pasta - also eliminating things such as pizzas too.

Also, I've managed to lose 5 stones in weight by taking that action. Carina is doing something right because she is losing weight but her blood glucose levels are staying higher than she is - quite rightly - happy to accept. I still think that her main problem is just the same as it was for me - I was eating too much starchy carbohydrate. Since cutting back dramatically on that I have normalised my blood glucose levels - 'on rising' level 4s and 5s almost always under 5 - and one hour after eating levels of less than 8 and usually less than 7. I think that is where Carina is trying to get to with her situation.

Hope that sounds better! Sorry once again for upsetting you!

Very best wishes to you and Jessica.

John
 
Last edited:
Hiya John

Ah ha this is where we know our differences. I don't use bread and porridge to keep the levels up. Jessica is on a pump, in theory she doesn't actually need to eat at all, like myself, as a non diabetic. She eats a healthy balanced diet which includes carbs, starchy and non. It doesn't include porridge as that is uncontrollable 🙂 This is why I said to Carina cut out the porridge. I think that even just cutting that out, will make a huge difference in her levels. Porridge, in my eyes, is delicious but evil 😛

The bread Carina is eating is great. Soya and Linseed Oil bread. The slices are not too big or thick like say granary and to be honest doesn't actually have too much of a different effect than say a banana, really it doesn't. I believe it is one of the best breads to get and you yourself have linseeds or something in your diet so you know the good effect of that so if Carina does want bread of some sort then she is having the right one.

Anyway glad we got that sorted, you are good at your thing, I know I'm good at mine so we meet in the middle somewhere 🙂 I'm off to make fajhitas or however you spell it.
 
OK Adrienne,

Enjoy your meal both of you - I just hope that we haven't made Carina even more confused than she was originally.

By the way, I've no objection to the linseed in the bread because I know that low in carbohydrate and is good for you - it's the starchy carbohydrate in there that causes the problems.

Best wishes - John
 
Carina - it looks like you and I were diagnosed at around the same time last year and our HbA1c's were fairly similar at that time as well.

I have managed to get things under control by following some of the great advice given to me here. The type of diet which wallycorker endorses was a great starting point for me. I have refined things a little since then, and probably eat a little less carbs than John does so that it works better for me, but I do think the general principle of cutting down on starchy carbs is sound.

So, what starchy carbs have I cut out? Pretty much all bread, potatoes, white rice, normal pasta. What starchy carbs do I eat? Brown basmati rice and wholewheat pasta but in small amounts and even less so these days than I did in the beginning. I know what level I can tolerate by testing. My sin is the occasional oven chip with my Friday night steak (with a gorgeous home made creamy pepper sauce it has taken me 15 years to perfect).

I eat an awful lot more veg than I used to. I find that salad veg, green beans, and even peas, sweetcorn and carrots (not overcooked) do very little to my levels. Similarly, many types of beans and lentils have little effect on me.

I hope this helps.
 
If you are IR as well as T1 you could have "Double Diabetes".
Click to expand...
Fortunately not, I'm actually quite insulin sensitive but resistance is on a scale, and it varies (sickness, high glucose levels themselves will increase it so more insulin is needed) I use 25-27 units of insulin a day during more lazy periods but sometimes fewer than 20 when I'm very active, comparatively, I'm more insulin resistant when lazy.

Wally, about exercise being long term, for cardiovascular health I would agree but for lowering bg levels and for increasing short term sensitivity, it's fairly immediate, doesn't need to be to strenuous( ie anaeobic as that may raise levels) and doesn't last, hence the need for regular exercise. There was some research about this recently but I haven't time to look it up.
 
Thanks to all of you for taking the time to reply back to my post. I will take the advice and see what changes i can make to improve things. Wallycorker: i'll try some of your suggestions and see how i get on, at the moment i am still trying to get over a nasty cold that i caught a few days ago and once that's gone for good i'll see how my levels are. I got on the scales today and i have lost another 2lbs 🙂 which takes my total weight loss to 2 stones, i also honestly think that excercise has helped too as i have proved that after a walk my levels are lower. When i go out for meals i try and choose what i think are the better options but i may not always get it right, my levels are always high when i go out for a meal because i prob have that extra something which i wouldn't normally have at home like a dessert but i'm always careful with the potatoes, rice etc If i go for a carvery meal that is always easy as i just have mainly meat and veg but i love eating any kind of cuisine, indian, chinese, italian etc but now i just think a lot more about what i should choose instead of having what i want when i want (oh i wish i could bring those days back!). Here's an example, today for lunch i made myself a mediteranean style salad (i always do as with my italian background i don't have salad any other way) anyway, i added 30g of feta cheese and my 2 hour post meal was 6.1 which i was pleased with but this evening i was at bingo with my friend and i had my meal there which consisted of 2 sausages, 1 beefburger (no bun) and baked beans and 2 hour post meal was 8.8 which is still within the NICE guidelines but i did expect it to be lower as the only carbs were the baked beans and there wasn't much of them. I will make the changes and see how it goes over the next couple of weeks - i will report back!
 
Good luck with things Carina - I was worried that we might be confusing you and might have frightened you away. Sorry if we have!

By the way, how did you establish that exercise brings your blood glucose levels down? I'm interested to know how you tested for that because I'd like to do some tests myself too. My blood glucose levels are lower after I've taken a walk but they are just as low if I sit in a chair too. In any case, I'm certain that any exercise is good for us but I'd like to test it out and can't work out what to do to measure the difference.

As regards the meal at the bingo then you would have had carbohydrate in the sausages as well as the beans. I understand that some of them can contain quite a lot. Did you have any drinks too?

The secret to gain good control is to just keep working at it by making small changes. You are moving in the right direction with the weight loss and the exercise. However, my message would be to just keep fine tuning your diet.

You are testing so you can see what is happening. After testing try to work out which food has given you a result that you are not happy with and try to adjust your diet accordingly next time.

Good luck and best wishes - John
 
Sausages can be a real minefield, especially when eating out because of the breadcrumb that some contain. I do eat quite a lot of sausages, particularly for brunch at the weekend, but I check the label at the supermarket - the variation in carb content is high, anything from 1g to 12g per sausage I've found. I pick the 1g sausages which I'm afraid tend to be a little bit more expensive. You may have just been unlucky and got high carb ones. It's just part of the learning process.

To digress just a little, I got very excited in Morrisons the other day when I found some square sausage (Scots living in England will understand my excitement). Sadly, 15g carb per slice so I had to pass them by :(
 
Cliff said:
...

To digress just a little, I got very excited in Morrisons the other day when I found some square sausage (Scots living in England will understand my excitement). Sadly, 15g carb per slice so I had to pass them by :(
Click to expand...


LOL Cliff :D thats why I will never be vegetarian...
 
HelenM said:
.................about exercise being long term, for cardiovascular health I would agree but for lowering bg levels and for increasing short term sensitivity, it's fairly immediate, doesn't need to be to strenuous( ie anaeobic as that may raise levels) and doesn't last, hence the need for regular exercise. There was some research about this recently but I haven't time to look it up....................
Click to expand...
Hi Helen,

I'd be interested to take a look at this research if you or anyone else can point me in the right direction.

As I said to Carina in a different post, I'd like to test it but I can't work out how I'd do it. My situation is very much like this:

Around 4.5 - Before eating
Around 7 or usually just below one hour after eating
Usually back to 4.5 two hours after eating

That seems to be my blood glucose pattern and doesn't seem to change whether I take a 2 to 3 mile walk or just sit in a chair.

Best wishes - John
 
Last edited:
HelenM said:
E....
If I'm lazy and miss a couple of days I become more insulin resistant. I wake up with a higher fasting level and will need to take more insulin with meals until I get going again .
Click to expand...

I notice this as well. My 3 swims this week havent happened due to one thing & another and yesterday & today my levels are creeping above where I have managed to keep them for the past few weeks. Gonna have to fit in something tonight & hopefully going climbing tomorrow so should be getting back on track again next week. Until you shared I hadnt realised it was due to the missing excercise, I was going over everything I ate yesterday to try & work out where I had gone wrong. Thankyou for solving my morning mystery!!:D
 
Wally, the studies are being done as part of a larger body of research into at the University of Michigan
http://www.kines.umich.edu/faculty/full-time/horowitz.html
There are complete papers available on the site, the first one referenced is relevant but it is very technical.
This video shows how they go about it
http://videos.howstuffworks.com/university-of-michigan/768-exercise-and-insulin-video.htm
and this is a press release on the most recent research
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-01/aps-wye012810.php

Less scientifically, last year I took part in the Big Blue Test organised by Tu Diabetes (an American forum).For World diabetes day, they got people on the forum to do 14 min of exercise. People did all sorts of exercise from yard sweeping, to running to skipping. They tested before and after. I ran on the treadmill and my bgl dropped from 6mmol to 4.3mmol.
I decided to compile some stats to see how people did overall.
120 people both type 1 and 2 posted findings with before and after readings I could interpret.
Of them
97 people’s blood glucose levels fell.
For these people the average fall was 25.5mg/dl (1.41mmol/l)
23 peoples blood glucose levels rose
For these the average rise was 11.6mg/dl (0,64mmo/l) Some of these people said that they continued and their levels fell later, others unfortunately said that their levels always rose after exercise.

I was quite surprised, even though I am convinced about the value of exercise I didn't think that it would have such an effect in so short a time.
 
HelenM said:
97 people’s blood glucose levels fell.
For these people the average fall was 25.5mg/dl (1.41mmol/l)
23 peoples blood glucose levels rose
For these the average rise was 11.6mg/dl (0,64mmo/l) Some of these people said that they continued and their levels fell later, others unfortunately said that their levels always rose after exercise.........
Click to expand...
Thanks for that Helen - I'm grateful. I'll check the stuff out.

As regards the above numbers, my dilemma is that surely it all depends on what people have eaten before the exercise and also when they ate it - i.e. after eating my blood glucose rises for approximately one hour and then drops back after that. That happens to me even if I sit in a chair almost totally immobile.

How did they take the food factor out of the experiment that you describe? In fact. I'd likely expect mine to drop more than any of the two examples shown above by just doing nothing - i.e. from around 7 to 4.5 simply due to the passage of time.

Best wishes - John
 
Last edited:
This exercise and rising levels is a whole other conversation. I can only speak for type 1's here by the way. The latest research shows that if you start exercise and you are high beforehand ie 13 or 14 and you do exercise, levels will increase. If you are lower then in theory you will go down.

It is all about insulin being present in cells. Insulin gives you energy. You need insulin in your cells to have energy. At levels of 13/14 mmol it is presumed you have no insulin in your cells and therefore whilst you may feel ok, you actually have no energy. Adrenaline kicks in and up you go.

If you are high they suggest you inject/bolus insulin to get it into your cells, then you can exercise. It is far more complicated than that but that is the easier way to explain it all. 🙂
 
Adrienne said:
This exercise and rising levels is a whole other conversation. I can only speak for type 1's here by the way. The latest research shows that if you start exercise and you are high beforehand ie 13 or 14 and you do exercise, levels will increase. If you are lower then in theory you will go down.

It is all about insulin being present in cells. Insulin gives you energy. You need insulin in your cells to have energy. At levels of 13/14 mmol it is presumed you have no insulin in your cells and therefore whilst you may feel ok, you actually have no energy. Adrenaline kicks in and up you go.

If you are high they suggest you inject/bolus insulin to get it into your cells, then you can exercise. It is far more complicated than that but that is the easier way to explain it all. 🙂
Click to expand...
Hi Adrienne - It's good to see that you are still talking to me. Thanks!

That sounds quite complicated enough to me and makes me realise that apart from discounting the factor of food from the experiment - like I have to do and trying to work out how carry out a meaningful experiment that I'm intending doing - then someone on insulin has to factor the effects of that out too. Certainly, it seems to make things more difficult for insulin users than it is for people such as me.

I never get anywhere near levels of 13/14 - in fact I have never seen a result as high as that since I started testing around eighteen months ago. In fact, I can't ever remember a result over 10.8 which just so happens to be the first test result that I ever carried out just after eating porridge for breakfast. Porridge didn't last long after that! However, I must have had results as high and even higher when my HbA1c was at 9.4% before I started testing.

Best wishes - John
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top