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Advice regarding managing Type2 without medication.

I just wish people could accept that there is more than one way to achieve remission instead of arguing. It would be very interesting to hear more about evidence that a plant based high carb diet can lead to remission independently of weight loss. I have seen several reliable studies showing that a wholefood plant based diet has positive effects on various health variables but I never looked at diabetes in particular.
 
I've seen references to 'physiological' insulin resistance, a normal function of the body, as opposed to Pathological insulin resistance (Which leads to T2 diabetes.) which is an abnormal state and driven by lipotoxicity and/or glucotoxicity and may possibly have genetic roots.

Low carb meals can lead to temporary insulin resistance, as can exercise, but it's natural. It's also natural for the pancreas to change its sensitivity during the day and also change how much insulin is secreted.

I've also seen it called 'glucose sparing'.
 
medidia said:
I just wish people could accept that there is more than one way to achieve remission instead of arguing. It would be very interesting to hear more about evidence that a plant based high carb diet can lead to remission independently of weight loss. I have seen several reliable studies showing that a wholefood plant based diet has positive effects on various health variables but I never looked at diabetes in particular.
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Some people like arguing so much that they pay for it:

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Also @Docb: I might have this wrong, but didn't you once comment that we can get a better understanding of diabetes from those with T1D? Because improvement of insulin sensitivity is one thing that can be tracked via self-administered insulin.
 
harbottle said:
I've seen references to 'physiological' insulin resistance, a normal function of the body, as opposed to Pathological insulin resistance (Which leads to T2 diabetes.) which is an abnormal state and driven by lipotoxicity and/or glucotoxicity and may possibly have genetic roots.

Low carb meals can lead to temporary insulin resistance, as can exercise, but it's natural. It's also natural for the pancreas to change its sensitivity during the day and also change how much insulin is secreted.

I've also seen it called 'glucose sparing'.
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Regardless of what it is called, physiological insulin-resistance is a well-enough-known phenomenon such that the advice in the lead up to an OGTT, for low-carbers, is to spend a few days eating at circa 150g carbs so as to not cause inaccuracies. More than that - And this is just my opinion - physiological insulin resistance could well be the biggest confounding factor when it comes to home BG testing.
 
harbottle said:
View attachment 33385

Diabetes Unlocked

Long before your blood sugar is elevated your body became insulin resistant. We now know that the benefits from reversing diabetes really come about from reversing your insulin resistance, and that then causes your blood sugars to improve. Simply forcing the blood sugars down with medication is not
www.evergreendoctors.com www.evergreendoctors.com
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I'm still curious how this interacts with your original post.
 
beating_my_betes said:
Also @Docb: I might have this wrong, but didn't you once comment that we can get a better understanding of diabetes from those with T1D? Because improvement of insulin sensitivity is one thing that can be tracked via self-administered insulin.
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In that case I'm happy to be one of your research participants - for a purely nominal fee and expense account, of course 😉
 
Thank you for those who have tried to educate me on "Insulin resistance" and how you measure it. Seems that the answer is that it is not easy outside of a dedicated laboratory environment, and even then it is a very fuzzy concept when it comes to assigning a number to it.

So, where are we? There are two principal mechanisms for T2 diabetes.

First, for some reason or other the pancreas is producing insufficient insulin to handle the blood glucose rise after eating having caused abnormal peaks which take time to settle back to pre eating levels. Limiting carbohydrate intake is a way of dealing with this by reducing the burden on the pancreas.

Second, the pancreas produces sufficient insulin to deal with whatever glucose is produced by eating carbohydrate but for some reason or other the processes whereby glucose is absorbed from blood into the body in general is impaired. In this case, the limiting carbohydrate may not be as effective in reducing blood glucose levels.

In between those extremes there is a whole heap of other stuff going on. It is complicated. Outside of a laboratory we can only really measure blood glucose and the noise associated those measurements is pretty loud. There may be signals in that noise but they are well hidden.

My thought for you @beating_my_betes is that if you reduce your blood glucose levels by losing weight through calorie restriction without carbohydrate reduction you will not be able to assign that to reducing insulin resistance. It maybe the case but there are other competing mechanisms that you cannot rule out.

Yes, I did make the observation that analysis of data from T1's might help with understanding mechanisms because at least there is control of one major variable, the amount of insulin being introduced into the system. You don't have that when it comes to T2.

Another thought for you @beating_my_betes. Your start position as stated in another thread suggests that you need, with some urgency, to get your weight down. In your position I would stop fretting about mechanisms and experiments and focus on achieving weight reduction by whatever means works for you. It is highly probable that would go a long way to getting control over your BG and BP with the benefits that would give whatever the mechanism.
 
A study in Denmark (I think) using a lot of information from T2s and categorised them into three major phenotypes:

1 - Low insulin sensitivity + beta cell dysfunction (Mainly overweight)
2 - Low insulin sensitivity, but no beta cell dysfunction (They called this type Hyperinsulinemic, and was found mainly in heavily obese people)
3 - Beta cell dysfunction but no insulin resistance (Usually no weight problems)

They called 1 'classical diabetes' as this was the most common type.
They used cPeptide and the standard way of measuring insulin resistance.

The Newcastle diet, I believe, improved hepatic insulin sensitivity, but did not see any improvements in skeletal muscle sensitivity. Liver insulin resistance means the liver overproduces glucose, which is a major cause of hyperglycaemia.
 
beating_my_betes said:
Me too!

Why "independently of weight (fat) loss"?
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because not everyone needs to lose weight, and there is a difference between saying "my remission strategy is weight loss, and in order to achieve that I will eat a plant based high carb diet" and "my remission strategy is eating a plant based high carb diet". I think there is evidence that the first one will work, as long as the weight loss can be maintained.
And I'd love to see the evidence to prove or disprove the second one (personally I'm a fan of plant based food, so I'd be happy to see that it works for diabetes too).
I ln any case I hope your health journey goes well.
 
Docb said:
In your position I would stop fretting about mechanisms and experiments and focus on achieving weight reduction by whatever means works for you. It is highly probable that would go a long way to getting control over your BG and BP with the benefits that would give whatever the mechanism.
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As I see it this advice, as quoted, is applicable to everyone diagnosed as prediabetic and Type 2 (pure and simple with no complications).

In saying that I am relying on the results of the Counterpoint study by Professor Taylor and his team at Newcastle University, their subsequent ReTUNE study of people of normal weight, and Professor Taylor's analysis of the results achieved by Dr David Unwin and the GPs at Norwood surgery. Also the statistics published by the NHS path to remission programme which show the chances of remission are 50% and more for people losing more than 15 kg and 20kg.
 
Docb said:
Thank you for those who have tried to educate me on "Insulin resistance" and how you measure it. Seems that the answer is that it is not easy outside of a dedicated laboratory environment, and even then it is a very fuzzy concept when it comes to assigning a number to it.
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No need to assign numbers to anything; at least not outside of a lab

Docb said:
Second, the pancreas produces sufficient insulin to deal with whatever glucose is produced by eating carbohydrate but for some reason or other the processes whereby glucose is absorbed from blood into the body in general is impaired. In this case, the limiting carbohydrate may not be as effective in reducing blood glucose levels.
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Carbs do ot reduce BG levels

Docb said:
In between those extremes there is a whole heap of other stuff going on. It is complicated. Outside of a laboratory we can only really measure blood glucose and the noise associated those measurements is pretty loud. There may be signals in that noise but they are well hidden.
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Again, we can book Homa-IR tests, so we can access lab results. But I think we can get a rouch and relative idea of improving insulin-sensitivity. And then there are the T1D results 😉

Docb said:
My thought for you @beating_my_betes is that if you reduce your blood glucose levels by losing weight through calorie restriction without carbohydrate reduction you will not be able to assign that to reducing insulin resistance. It maybe the case but there are other competing mechanisms that you cannot rule out.
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I think that i would be able to make a good case for improved insulin sensitivity

Docb said:
Yes, I did make the observation that analysis of data from T1's might help with understanding mechanisms because at least there is control of one major variable, the amount of insulin being introduced into the system. You don't have that when it comes to T2.
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Man-made insulin is similar enough to naturally -occurring insulin to be afford T1D as close to 'normal' a life as a non-diabetic as is possible. In what ways would you suggest it is different enough to naturally-occurring insulin such that it couldn't be used as a model for how insulin in T2D and non-diabetic works?

Docb said:
Another thought for you @beating_my_betes. Your start position as stated in another thread suggests that you need, with some urgency, to get your weight down. In your position I would stop fretting about mechanisms and experiments and focus on achieving weight reduction by whatever means works for you. It is highly probable that would go a long way to getting control over your BG and BP with the benefits that would give whatever the mechanism.
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Well, yeah. It might seem obvious to you and I. However, it seems to many (most?) these days, that carbs cause insulin-resistance, obesity, diabetes etc. etc. etc. that not only would carbs be an immovable obstacle to the necessary weight/fat loss, but that such a plan would only make all my issues worse.
 
medidia said:
because not everyone needs to lose weight, and there is a difference between saying "my remission strategy is weight loss, and in order to achieve that I will eat a plant based high carb diet" and "my remission strategy is eating a plant based high carb diet". I think there is evidence that the first one will work, as long as the weight loss can be maintained.
And I'd love to see the evidence to prove or disprove the second one (personally I'm a fan of plant based food, so I'd be happy to see that it works for diabetes too).
I ln any case I hope your health journey goes well.
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I know you're not directly quoting me as saying that i plan to achieve remission by eating a high-carb plant-based diet, but it's not something I would say; at least, not without the qualifier that such a plan would only work (just as with any other weight/fat-loss plan) if there's an energy-deficit.

Until such a time as my thread gets re-opened I won't be able to show any personal success. But there are many cases of people doing exactly what i wish to do.
 
beating_my_betes said:
Until such a time as my thread gets re-opened I won't be able to show any personal success. But there are many cases of people doing exactly what i wish to do.
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As I understand it, you haven't started your personal experiment, therefore you will have no results to show, be it success or failure and any results will take, I guess 3 months or so to be confirmed.

When you have substantial documented proof of your experiment, please PM me and I will gladly re-open said thread.

I will ask if you have consulted a health care professional to ensure what you are doing or about to do is safe for you and your circumstances

Alan
 
beating_my_betes said:
No need to assign numbers to anything; at least not outside of a lab


Carbs do ot reduce BG levels


Again, we can book Homa-IR tests, so we can access lab results. But I think we can get a rouch and relative idea of improving insulin-sensitivity. And then there are the T1D results 😉


I think that i would be able to make a good case for improved insulin sensitivity


Man-made insulin is similar enough to naturally -occurring insulin to be afford T1D as close to 'normal' a life as a non-diabetic as is possible. In what ways would you suggest it is different enough to naturally-occurring insulin such that it couldn't be used as a model for how insulin in T2D and non-diabetic works?


Well, yeah. It might seem obvious to you and I. However, it seems to many (most?) these days, that carbs cause insulin-resistance, obesity, diabetes etc. etc. etc. that not only would carbs be an immovable obstacle to the necessary weight/fat loss, but that such a plan would only make all my issues worse.
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I am afraid your ideas of sound science thinking differs significantly from those I built a career on. You might well be right so I will leave it there.
 
Docb said:
I am afraid your ideas of sound science thinking differs significantly from those I built a career on. You might well be right so I will leave it there.
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I'm not aware of making any claims of "sound science" regarding the ideas presented in this thread. If you can point to where I have, I'll happily retract and apologise
 
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