Northerner
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Cheers Rob! 🙂
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Countryfile last night
- Thread starter Vicsetter
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Copepod
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D_G Not a daft question, but the reason why dogs must never eat chocolate is that theobromine in cocoa is poisonous to them.
Rob - I find most animals and birds are pretty good at biting when humans do something they don't like to them. You'll know that ducks can bite, scratch & flap wings if they feel threatened. In fact, one expressed its displeasure when I interrupted its going to bed routine by picking it up and checking its wing feathers - it will need clipping again and that probably means all the khaki campbell youngsters need clipping again.
Rob - I find most animals and birds are pretty good at biting when humans do something they don't like to them. You'll know that ducks can bite, scratch & flap wings if they feel threatened. In fact, one expressed its displeasure when I interrupted its going to bed routine by picking it up and checking its wing feathers - it will need clipping again and that probably means all the khaki campbell youngsters need clipping again.
Robster65
Senior Member
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This is a publicly available document on the web, so should be ok to post...
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/htm/bc/tref7.htm
All values in mg/dl so need translating but a nice list of ranges. If you have an ostrich you're in luck, but still no duck 🙄
Rob
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/htm/bc/tref7.htm
All values in mg/dl so need translating but a nice list of ranges. If you have an ostrich you're in luck, but still no duck 🙄
Rob
Copepod
Much missed Moderator
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Thanks Rob.
I guess it's easier to get blood out of a large vein in an ostrich than from a much smaller duck vein - but they have rabbit ranges. Big surprise to see difference in ranges between normal pigs and Vietnamese pot bellied pigs.
All a long way from getting capilliary blood from a cow's tail on Countryfile....
I guess it's easier to get blood out of a large vein in an ostrich than from a much smaller duck vein - but they have rabbit ranges. Big surprise to see difference in ranges between normal pigs and Vietnamese pot bellied pigs.
All a long way from getting capilliary blood from a cow's tail on Countryfile....
Robster65
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I was surprised by the pig differences too. I would imagine a lot is down to vet care. Sadly, poultry and fowl are seen as expendable and not worth much research I would imagine. We tend to do much of our own care work due to the general attitude and transport issues to get them there.
It's the geese we need to watch out for when they're in a biting mood !
...and then the wings come out and the bruises are there for a while after 😱Rob
Pumper_Sue
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To treat a doggy hypo my old collie used to have glucose powder and milk 🙂
Me also thinks the vet was pulling a fast one re testing the cow as all he had to do was smell her breath. (It's called making a fast buck).
Me also thinks the vet was pulling a fast one re testing the cow as all he had to do was smell her breath. (It's called making a fast buck).
Copepod
Much missed Moderator
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Vets tend to be a bit clueless with anything exotic. When I kept and bred tropical fish as a teenager, I relied on advice from elderly Brummie tropical fish keepers, fellow members of Midland Tropical Aquarists, rather than vets.
But, to be fair to vets, they have 5 years to learn several species, at least dogs, cats, rabbits, horses, cattle, sheep, and human medicine can't cover everything for one species in a 5 year degree.
But, to be fair to vets, they have 5 years to learn several species, at least dogs, cats, rabbits, horses, cattle, sheep, and human medicine can't cover everything for one species in a 5 year degree.
I found a study where the ducks had glucose levels of 188, 159, and I72 mg. per cent, (mg/dl ) before they made them hypo with mega amounts of insulin for an experiment. (30 units per kg😱) They took the blood from the inner surface of the wing or the web of the foot.
So if that's normal it's a bit higher than us.
Hypos apparently make them loose their sight. It returns when BG is back to normal but the evidence is still as lesions their in their brain , optic nerves and retina
(apparently this is very similar to what happens with ducks who get malaria which is why they were doing the experiment,)
So if that's normal it's a bit higher than us.
Hypos apparently make them loose their sight. It returns when BG is back to normal but the evidence is still as lesions their in their brain , optic nerves and retina
(apparently this is very similar to what happens with ducks who get malaria which is why they were doing the experiment,)
Julia
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Hello everyone.
Feel I should put my two-pennies worth in here, as a vet. Are there no other vets on this forum? Before I write anything I should state that for the last four and half years I have only worked with horses (and donkeys!), so am a bit out of touch with other animals.
It is amazing how different species have such different metabolisms and react to situations differently. The reason the dairy cows were being tested for ketones was to look for subclinical (no signs yet) ketosis. It is very very rare (never say never) for a cow to become diabetic and it is likely their blood glucose was pretty much normal. Dairy cows, producing a large amount of milk, have the metabolism of elite athletes and can easily fall into negative energy balance. Ketosis easily occurs in ruminants and can make the cow very sick - it will NOT be due to a lack of insulin NOR severe hyperglycaemia. Testing the cow for ketones, or more specifically beta-hydroxybutyrate, will alert the farmer to low levels of ketones, so that action can be taken before the animals become off their food and drop their milk production.
Pumper Sue, yes, many people can smell ketones, but not everyone can, and if the cow was in full blown ketosis ie sick, a lot of vets would not need to test the blood or milk as they would be able to smell the ketones. However many cows are tested for subclinical ketosis to alert a problem before it happens. The milk could have been tested, but usually its quicker, easier and more accurate to take a quick blood sample from the tail vein. I?ve just phoned a farm animal vet colleague who said that it costs less than ?4 a cow to take and test the blood. The amount a farmer would lose through lost milk production if clinical ketosis occurs would be a lot lot lot more!
There?s so much variation between species. Dogs, cats and chinchillas commonly get diabetes like in people, although there is much debate over type 1 vs type 2 in each individual animal. I agree Robster, you cannot aim to achieve the same type of control in pets and in my student days I saw of lot of blind dogs and cats from diabetic complications despite best efforts at treatment. Having said that I think you?re much more likely to get offered CGM for your dog than from the NHS!
My professional interest is horses and they NEVER become diabetic. However a lot of overweight native breeds (significant genetic component) have a very marked insulin resistance with normall glucose levels. I have measured fasting insulin levels up to 20 times normal. These ponies nearly always go on to develop a horrible condition called laminitis, which affects the small blood vessels in their feet and is very painful. Treatment of the underlying insulin resistance is mainly diet and exercise, but metformin seems to help too, although some experts think that this poorly absorbed by the horse?s stomach. I hope other type 2 treatments are being studied in horses so that we can use them soon?
As another point to show how different species are, small fat ponies and donkeys NEVER produce ketones, but if restricted from food for over 24 hours will get loads of fat (triglycerides) in their blood (hyperlipaemia) which causes lots of problems including liver failure and usually kills them,😱 unless aggressive and intensive treatment is undertaken. Bigger horses can happily be starved for days without this causing any problems.
Sorry if this post is a bit long and complicated, but this thread has certainly stirred up some interest so I thought I?d better put some veterinary input. The take home message is that you cannot extrapolate from one species to another - one of the reasons why the vet training is so long?😎
Feel I should put my two-pennies worth in here, as a vet. Are there no other vets on this forum? Before I write anything I should state that for the last four and half years I have only worked with horses (and donkeys!), so am a bit out of touch with other animals.
It is amazing how different species have such different metabolisms and react to situations differently. The reason the dairy cows were being tested for ketones was to look for subclinical (no signs yet) ketosis. It is very very rare (never say never) for a cow to become diabetic and it is likely their blood glucose was pretty much normal. Dairy cows, producing a large amount of milk, have the metabolism of elite athletes and can easily fall into negative energy balance. Ketosis easily occurs in ruminants and can make the cow very sick - it will NOT be due to a lack of insulin NOR severe hyperglycaemia. Testing the cow for ketones, or more specifically beta-hydroxybutyrate, will alert the farmer to low levels of ketones, so that action can be taken before the animals become off their food and drop their milk production.
Pumper Sue, yes, many people can smell ketones, but not everyone can, and if the cow was in full blown ketosis ie sick, a lot of vets would not need to test the blood or milk as they would be able to smell the ketones. However many cows are tested for subclinical ketosis to alert a problem before it happens. The milk could have been tested, but usually its quicker, easier and more accurate to take a quick blood sample from the tail vein. I?ve just phoned a farm animal vet colleague who said that it costs less than ?4 a cow to take and test the blood. The amount a farmer would lose through lost milk production if clinical ketosis occurs would be a lot lot lot more!
There?s so much variation between species. Dogs, cats and chinchillas commonly get diabetes like in people, although there is much debate over type 1 vs type 2 in each individual animal. I agree Robster, you cannot aim to achieve the same type of control in pets and in my student days I saw of lot of blind dogs and cats from diabetic complications despite best efforts at treatment. Having said that I think you?re much more likely to get offered CGM for your dog than from the NHS!
My professional interest is horses and they NEVER become diabetic. However a lot of overweight native breeds (significant genetic component) have a very marked insulin resistance with normall glucose levels. I have measured fasting insulin levels up to 20 times normal. These ponies nearly always go on to develop a horrible condition called laminitis, which affects the small blood vessels in their feet and is very painful. Treatment of the underlying insulin resistance is mainly diet and exercise, but metformin seems to help too, although some experts think that this poorly absorbed by the horse?s stomach. I hope other type 2 treatments are being studied in horses so that we can use them soon?
As another point to show how different species are, small fat ponies and donkeys NEVER produce ketones, but if restricted from food for over 24 hours will get loads of fat (triglycerides) in their blood (hyperlipaemia) which causes lots of problems including liver failure and usually kills them,😱 unless aggressive and intensive treatment is undertaken. Bigger horses can happily be starved for days without this causing any problems.
Sorry if this post is a bit long and complicated, but this thread has certainly stirred up some interest so I thought I?d better put some veterinary input. The take home message is that you cannot extrapolate from one species to another - one of the reasons why the vet training is so long?😎
Robster65
Senior Member
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- Type 1
Fascinating post Julia. Thanks for clarifying. 🙂
Not had much to do with horses so far in life, but there's plenty around us so I'm picking up snippets as I go.
If ever you fancy branching out into hedgehog advice via email let me know. There's an awful lot of carers reliant upon folk remedies and guesswork with the odd bit of scientific research along the way.🙄
Rob
Not had much to do with horses so far in life, but there's plenty around us so I'm picking up snippets as I go.
If ever you fancy branching out into hedgehog advice via email let me know. There's an awful lot of carers reliant upon folk remedies and guesswork with the odd bit of scientific research along the way.🙄
Rob
Julia
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Sorry Rob, they didn't even mention hedgehogs at vet school. 🙄 My old housemate (another vet) treats them though - I came home one day to find a box in my bedroom and in it a hedgehog with a broken leg that he had splinted. It was in my room, with the door shut, away from the cats. It did very well, fracture healed and released back into the wild... Probably to make a nice home in a pile of wood on bonfire night 😱
Robster65
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They are pretty resilient and it is a worry about this time of year. I've seen a few with horrific strimmer induced injuries too. They don't have a very good reaction to danger for modern living. Running away would be better.
I've been told that pretty much any gastric type problems they have (off which there are many 🙄) can be 'reset' during hibernation. Presumably, because of the slowing of the metabolism, any parasites, viruses or bacteria will struggle to survive the cold and lack of nutrients. An amazing adaptation to food scarcity.
Rob
I've been told that pretty much any gastric type problems they have (off which there are many 🙄) can be 'reset' during hibernation. Presumably, because of the slowing of the metabolism, any parasites, viruses or bacteria will struggle to survive the cold and lack of nutrients. An amazing adaptation to food scarcity.
Rob
Northerner
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More cat diabetes news...
http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-cover-stories/diabetes-update.aspx
http://www.veterinarypracticenews.com/vet-cover-stories/diabetes-update.aspx
Copepod
Much missed Moderator
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?Not every fat cat gets diabetes and not every diabetic cat is overweight,? - just as with humans! Although the rest of the paragraph mentions that dry food increases risk of diabetes in cats, without acknowledging its advantages in feline dental health.
If our cat had complete control of her diet, she'd eat nothing but ham - she can hear a packet opened 2 rooms away! High protein, of course, but a bit limited in micro nutrients and minerals and high salt. She gets tinned food once a day and unlimited access to dry food and water - plus occasionally gets her teeth into unguarded ham, cheese, beans etc.
If our cat had complete control of her diet, she'd eat nothing but ham - she can hear a packet opened 2 rooms away! High protein, of course, but a bit limited in micro nutrients and minerals and high salt. She gets tinned food once a day and unlimited access to dry food and water - plus occasionally gets her teeth into unguarded ham, cheese, beans etc.
Northerner
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My dog, who lived to the grand old age of 18, would only eat cooked liver or dog biscuits - wouldn't touch anything else, especially dog food. She would sit looking all neglected looking at us eating our meals at the table, convinced we were having something far more palatable than her and was only convinced when we showed her the empty plates - then she'd go away to eat her own food! 🙂
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