Supreme Court makes ruling on definition of Woman

[Amity Island]

The UK Supreme Court has ruled that the legal definition of a woman refers to biological sex

It comes after women’s rights campaigners challenged the Scottish Government’s interpretation of anti-discrimination legislation which applies to England, Scotland and Wales

The ruling is set to impact how trans people are treated as well as who can use women-only spaces

UK Government says ruling provides clarity for services including hospitals and sports clubs

First Minister John Swinney said the Scottish Government ‘accepts’ the judgment

The Scottish Government said it will be engaging with the UK Government ‘to understand the full implication of this ruling’

 

[Martin.A]

Hard to believe that we now live in a world that needs a Court ruling on what everyone on the planet knows to be the case.

 

[nonethewiser]

Happen to be travelling in car earlier & this was being discussed on R2 Jeremy Vine show, apparently some parents won't tell grandparents what sex their baby is, well if not mistaken grandparents will soon know when they come to change a nappy.

Sometimes think world has gone mad.

 

[Amity Island]

There was a new regulation (approved document T) that was introduced last year for new buildings (not houses,) ensuring that there are separate male and female toilets.

New toilet criteria set for non-residential buildings

With Approved Document T due to take effect on 1 October, what are the requirements for the design and layout of toilet facilities in new non-residential buildings and changes of use in England?

ww3.rics.org

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Happen to be travelling in car earlier & this was being discussed on R2 Jeremy Vine show, apparently some parents won't tell grandparents what sex their baby is, well if not mistaken grandparents will soon know when they come to change a nappy.

Sometimes think world has gone mad.

Does seem a bit silly, though even biological sex isn't always quite as binary as we might like to believe.

Personally, I don't see a problem with accepting that even though most people (including me) are comfortable with my obvious sex, there might be a small number of people who aren't. There have (presumably) always been tomboys, girls who feel (in some ways) more comfortable presenting aspects which are traditionally more masculine, and boys who present as more feminine than is traditional. I see no problem accepting that a small proportion of such people might be happier being treated as of the opposite sex. I also see no problem (though I can't really imagine it) in some people not recognising themselves as of either sex and wanting to be regarded as non-binary.

What society does for such people (which toilets they're allowed to use, which prisons they go to, which sports they're allowed to participate in, etc.) is another question altogether and will presumably end up being awkward compromises much of the time.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

There was a new regulation (approved document T) that was introduced last year for new buildings (not houses,) ensuring that there are separate male and female toilets.

Where space permits. In a small cafe that only has one toilet, that one can be a universal toilet. Similarly, when there are many toilets, some may be single sex and some universal.

 

[Sally71]

I went to Belgium over 20 years ago and it was quite normal there for public toilets to be unisex. I was in a bar or restaurant, needed the loo, saw the toilets sign and went through the door expecting to be faced with two more doors with male and female. Nope, it just opened up into the toilet area and there was a man calmly washing his hands and as he did so a woman came out of one of the cubicles to wash hers. The urinals were all around behind the cubicles so that women didn’t have to walk past a load of men with their bits out. To be honest I can’t see the problem with it, the cubicles are all individual so nobody can see what shape you are or what you’re doing. My daughter has recently been doing the rounds of universities and we saw at least one of those with gender neutral toilets.

On another note - we recently watched Monty Python “The Meaning of Life”. The opening sketch is about giving birth, can’t remember all the jokes but when the baby is out the mother is saying “what is it? Girl or boy?” And the doctor (John Cleese) makes a comment something along the lines of “that’s a bit silly, forcing gender stereotypes on it already, don’t you think? Although it will all be available to watch on VHS if you really want to know”. This film was made 40 years ago, when there was no internet, no social media, and no concept of non-binary people, they probably thought they were being completely random and ridiculous yet how scary a prediction of today is it?!

 

[Inka]

Does seem a bit silly, though even biological sex isn't always quite as binary as we might like to believe.

Depends on what you mean by “binary”. There are only two sexes, so it’s binary in that way. DSDs are sex-specific. Importantly, people with DSDs have asked to be left out of these arguments.

I’m very pleased at the decision of the Supreme Court. Not only does it protect women, it also protects gay men and lesbians whose sexual orientation has been attacked by identity politics in the most gross way.

There have (presumably) always been tomboys, girls who feel (in some ways) more comfortable presenting aspects which are traditionally more masculine, and boys who present as more feminine than is traditional.

That’s gender @Bruce Stephens A societal construct. Women can be masculine and men can be feminine. But tomboys, women who are Mathematicians or astronauts or martial arts fighters, women who don’t want babies, girls who like short hair and football are still all female, as that’s their sex, a matter of biological fact, which is what this ruling is clarifying.

Women have been oppressed over the centuries. Unfortunately we still don’t have equality. Women’s rights can’t be protected unless we can correctly define what a woman is.

 

[Homer]

Hard to believe that we now live in a world that needs a Court ruling on what everyone on the planet knows to be the case.

Totally agree, I live in Scotland, would you believe this is being going on for over 5 years.
It’s the amount of time , money and it should never had went to court. That’s why we have a parliament and a law which covers this .

 

[nonethewiser]

Does seem a bit silly, though even biological sex isn't always quite as binary as we might like to believe.

Personally, I don't see a problem with accepting that even though most people (including me) are comfortable with my obvious sex, there might be a small number of people who aren't. There have (presumably) always been tomboys, girls who feel (in some ways) more comfortable presenting aspects which are traditionally more masculine, and boys who present as more feminine than is traditional. I see no problem accepting that a small proportion of such people might be happier being treated as of the opposite sex. I also see no problem (though I can't really imagine it) in some people not recognising themselves as of either sex and wanting to be regarded as non-binary.

What society does for such people (which toilets they're allowed to use, which prisons they go to, which sports they're allowed to participate in, etc.) is another question altogether and will presumably end up being awkward compromises much of the time.

You can identify as non binary but do you really think it's fair to do that to a new born baby who have no say in matter, also denying grandparents the joy of calling said child their grandson/granddaughter.

Even those who identify as NB they are still male or female biologically, I could identify as a dog & bark & wag a false tail but I'll always be a man no matter what.

 

[CliffH]

Does seem a bit silly, though even biological sex isn't always quite as binary as we might like to believe.

Depends on what you mean by “binary”. There are only two sexes, so it’s binary in that way. DSDs are sex-specific. Importantly, people with DSDs have asked to be left out of these arguments.

I’m very pleased at the decision of the Supreme Court. Not only does it protect women, it also protects gay men and lesbians whose sexual orientation has been attacked by identity politics in the most gross way.

There have (presumably) always been tomboys, girls who feel (in some ways) more comfortable presenting aspects which are traditionally more masculine, and boys who present as more feminine than is traditional.

That’s gender @Bruce Stephens A societal construct. Women can be masculine and men can be feminine. But tomboys, women who are Mathematicians or astronauts or martial arts fighters, women who don’t want babies, girls who like short hair and football are still all female, as that’s their sex, a matter of biological fact, which is what this ruling is clarifying.

Women have been oppressed over the centuries. Unfortunately we still don’t have equality. Women’s rights can’t be protected unless we can correctly define what a woman is.

I think your final three sentences put the finger on it, Inka. I've always considered myself to be a radical feminist (which I hope I'm allowed to be, even though I'm cis-male). I sometimes work with trans people (as clients or as colleagues) and I aim to educate myself as much as I can regarding how best to support those people. As you can imagine, the whole trans issue is very much a hot potato within my profession (Clinical Psychology). I'm self-employed and towards the end of my career and so have little worry about being 'cancelled', although I know that it's very much a concern that some younger colleagues who work in the NHS have, if they say 'the wrong thing'.

My biggest concern stems from the reality that some cis-women feel that female spaces (physical and philosophical) are being encroached upon unfairly by trans women, whereas I don't hear that cis-men feel threatened by trans men. That suggests to me that we have more work to do to ensure that cis-women feel safe.

 

[Inka]

I’m a feminist and a woman @CliffH We don’t use the term ‘cis’ because actual women aren’t a subset of the group women, and now the Supreme Court has confirmed that.

Trans people are protected under the Equality Act, and rightly so, under the section of Gender Reassignment. They are also protected under their (bio) sex category.

 

[CliffH]

I’m a feminist and a woman @CliffH We don’t use the term ‘cis’ because actual women aren’t a subset of the group women, and now the Supreme Court has confirmed that.

Trans people are protected under the Equality Act, and rightly so, under the section of Gender Reassignment. They are also protected under their (bio) sex category.

Sorry: many of my colleagues use the prefix 'cis'. It just shows how much of a minefield this whole area is and how I need to keep learning and remaining curious.

 

[Amity Island]

Where space permits. In a small cafe that only has one toilet, that one can be a universal toilet. Similarly, when there are many toilets, some may be single sex and some universal.

I know.

What some might not be aware of was before A.D.T came into force last year there had been a move towards providing universal toilets as standard. With ADT this moved things nearer to where we were before, with separate sex toilets.

 

[Amity Island]

@Inka

For the record, could you confirm for everyone. Gender is about personality, sex is biological..

Going back a good few years, any application form would ask for your sex, with male or female as available answers. More recently, the word sex got swapped for gender. Why this happened I don't know, but this is where things got confusing. Now it has been clarified that gender and sex are two different things with the definition of woman clarified as biological sex in the supreme court.

 

[Inka]

Sex is most definitely biological @Amity Island and immutable in humans.
Gender in the above context refers to social and cultural ideas about how the two sexes should look and behave - so a system of stereotypes, social norms, behaviours and roles based on the sex of the person.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

The judge who delivered the verdict was at pains to point out that this decision was navigating the rights of two different groups which both deserve equality and protection, and should in no way be used to negatively impact trans people even more than they already are. But it’s very hard to imagine how this won’t have a massive negative effect on trans men and trans women. And once again non-binary folks are just more or less ignored entirely.

From a practical point of view I think a mix of gender-neutral plus women-only toilets as the norm would be a decent standard approach in larger venues. It’d help even-out the queues in theatres and concert venues for one thing! And women would have the choice.

 

[Inka]

The judge also pointed out that trans people’s rights remained unaffected. This was about women’s rights. The judgement was a clarification of what “woman” and “sex” meant in the Equality Act. Without a proper definition of women, women’s rights can’t be protected, and without a proper definition of sex neither can the rights of gay men and lesbians.

Women are entitled to single sex spaces. That includes toilets, yes, and rape crisis centres amongst other things. Women are also entitled to benefit from policies that promote equality with men. For example, if a company or the law says that 50% of senior executives should be women, that should be the case. That is, biological women.

 

[Amity Island]

biological women.

This brings another question. Legally speaking, what is a biological woman? Under a GRC (gender recognition certificate) , a trans person can change their birth certificate to the sex of their choice.

I don't know whether changing a birth certificate is practically feasible, wasn't it correct at birth?

What does the transgender rights ruling mean?

The major issues behind Wednesday’s landmark case – and the impact of the Supreme Court’s decision

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Amity Island]

The judge who delivered the verdict was at pains to point out that this decision was navigating the rights of two different groups

That was a very interesting point. To give credence to say "lesbian" they were forced to acknowledge "woman". In other words, genders only have credence when the very definition of woman and man are given legitimacy.