• Please Remember: Members are only permitted to share their own experiences. Members are not qualified to give medical advice. Additionally, everyone manages their health differently. Please be respectful of other people's opinions about their own diabetes management.
  • We seem to be having technical difficulties with new user accounts. If you are trying to register please check your Spam or Junk folder for your confirmation email. If you still haven't received a confirmation email, please reach out to our support inbox: support.forum@diabetes.org.uk

A valid comparison of Very Low Calorie vs Low Carb ?

Status
This thread is now closed. Please contact Anna DUK, Ieva DUK or everydayupsanddowns if you would like it re-opened.
I

ianf0ster

Well-Known Member
Relationship to Diabetes
Type 2
I like Zoe! she tells the truth about all sorts of things - much like a certain GP.
 
Interesting. I've not heard of Virta - has it had much coverage elsewhere? Do we know who the authors are?
 
Virta Health is a US company specializing in using a Ketogenic diet/Way OF Eating in the treatment of Type 2 Diabetes.
Its principle researchers are Dr Stephen Phinney and Dr Jeff Volek. I believe that their interest in Low Carb/Keto started with elite athletes.
 
pm133 said:
What are the downsides of a lack of carbs in a normal diet?
Click to expand...
Social events based around food are difficult for some if their friends/family are not supportive.

But for the average person there are absolutely no downsides from a health point of view - Better energy, less hunger, lower blood glucose, lower Insulin, lower body fat, lower blood pressure, lower weight, lower inflammation, better blood Lipid ratios. Even less constipation and or diarrhoea.
People think that you need lots of fibre for good bowel movement, but if you think about it logically that doesn't make sense.
- Why eat things that we can't digest just to help force out the remains of the food we have already digested? That is like sending more traffic down a motorway that has had a lane closure 'to force the blockage to clear'!
 
ianf0ster said:
Social events based around food are difficult for some if their friends/family are not supportive.

But for the average person there are absolutely no downsides from a health point of view - Better energy, less hunger, lower blood glucose, lower Insulin, lower body fat, lower blood pressure, lower weight, lower inflammation, better blood Lipid ratios. Even less constipation and or diarrhoea.
People think that you need lots of fibre for good bowel movement, but if you think about it logically that doesn't make sense.
- Why eat things that we can't digest just to help force out the remains of the food we have already digested? That is like sending more traffic down a motorway that has had a lane closure 'to force the blockage to clear'!
Click to expand...

What about people other than the average?
What sort of risks do those people need to be aware of?

Also, if medical professionals recommend fibre and a certain faily intake of carbs, and in fairness it seems an awful lot of them do, there must be some credible peer reviewed science to support that unless some new science has emerged to replace it. Are you aware of anything like that?
 
pm133 said:
What about people other than the average?
What sort of risks do those people need to be aware of?

Also, if medical professionals recommend fibre and a certain faily intake of carbs, and in fairness it seems an awful lot of them do, there must be some credible peer reviewed science to support that unless some new science has emerged to replace it. Are you aware of anything like that?
Click to expand...

My opinion is that lower or moderate carbohydrate approaches are increasingly seen as one of a range of options that can help people living with type 2 diabetes by healthcare proferssionals and large organisations like Diabetes UK. There are lots of new members who arrive now saying that their GP or nurse has told them they have T2 and that they should reduce the amount of carbohydrate in their diet, where some years ago the advice would have been to 'base all their meals on starchy carbs'. Some HCPs still give the latter advice.

They are generally seen as less relevant to T1s I think, because modern insulin therapy can *theoretically* allow people to eat pretty much what they like and dose insulin to deal with it (though there are some who passionately advocate the them in T1 too.) In practical terms though, many T1s find that very high carbohydrate loaded meals are sometimes less reliable and more prone to significant glucose disruption than more moderate carbohydrate meals - but everyone is different and in many ways it's more important for each individual to work out what works for them.

The things that most often seem to concern HCPs about lower carb approaches seem to be
  1. Long term sustainability and effects - some are of the opinion that there is not enough data to see what happens long term
  2. Increasing fat intake - with question marks over the proportion of fats, particularly saturated fats, cholesterol etc
  3. The effect on the kidneys of increased protein intake
It's worth mentioning that diet and food is not really a very well studied area, partly because it's very hard to properly collect accurate data without locking people in a room and feeding them exactly what you want, which is not realistic, and neither is it an accurate reflection of real life. There are quite a few observational studies, but many rely on self-reported data, which is notoriously tricky to collect - a bit like the 'how many units of alcohol do you drink in a week' question.

Some studies have compared low calorie with low carb diets and shown little difference in efficacy... but overwhelmingly the anecdotal evidence of the forum (plural of anecdote is not anecdata etc etc) is that moderate or lower carb approaches to eating give rise to BG outcomes that HCPs are very pleased with, and often ask, "How on earth have you managed that!"
 
"Virta declined to provide KHN with underlying data"
"The treatment currently costs other patients $370 per month, plus a one-time $500 initiation fee."

Not exactly a transparent comparison, or by an independent party?
 
travellor said:
"Virta declined to provide KHN with underlying data"
"The treatment currently costs other patients $370 per month, plus a one-time $500 initiation fee."

Not exactly a transparent comparison, or by an independent party?
Click to expand...
Doesn't the shakes based Direct style Newcastle diet cost £80 per week for the shakes, doesn't one of the lead authors of DIRECT have a large financial stake in the company that supplies the shakes,

At least the Virta treatment is covered (in the US) by health Insurance!

Are you suggesting that Zoe Harcombe has a financial interest in Virta ?
 
ianf0ster said:
Doesn't the shakes based Direct style Newcastle diet cost £80 per week for the shakes, doesn't one of the lead authors of DIRECT have a large financial stake in the company that supplies the shakes,

At least the Virta treatment is covered (in the US) by health Insurance!

Are you suggesting that Zoe Harcombe has a financial interest in Virta ?
Click to expand...

No.
It seems misinformation abounds sometimes.
The diet suggests several shakes, They suggest, among others, Asda, Tesco.
No insurance needed.
No initiation fee.
 
ianf0ster said:
Doesn't the shakes based Direct style Newcastle diet cost £80 per week for the shakes, doesn't one of the lead authors of DIRECT have a large financial stake in the company that supplies the shakes,

At least the Virta treatment is covered (in the US) by health Insurance!

Are you suggesting that Zoe Harcombe has a financial interest in Virta ?
Click to expand...

No idea on the financial interest, but they certainly know her.

Citations and Footnotes 3

www.virtahealth.com

Can Type 2 Diabetes be Reversed? | Virta Health

Yes, Type 2 Diabetes can be reversed. Find out how to reverse your diabetes in this detailed guide.
www.virtahealth.com www.virtahealth.com

A bit circular?
Or a different Z Harcombe?
 
Of course its also possible to do virtually the same as in Virta for free (at least in the UK) by following the example of Dr David Unwin GP and his patients - 80 roughly 50% including long term T2's in remission after 2yrs on Low carb (but not as low as Ketogenic).
I don't yet consider myself to be fully in remission but I too followed this route just from online resources so for free.
I'm not sure if it's true that it is more difficult for slim T2#s, but my HbA1C down from 53 to 45 and weight down from 170lbs to 148lbs in 4 months on Low Carb with no conscious calorie reduction. And still both HbA1C and weight are dropping. Currently 44 and 142lbs after 17 months.
 
ianf0ster said:
Of course its also possible to do virtually the same as in Virta for free (at least in the UK) by following the example of Dr David Unwin GP and his patients - 80 roughly 50% including long term T2's in remission after 2yrs on Low carb (but not as low as Ketogenic).
I don't yet consider myself to be fully in remission but I too followed this route just from online resources so for free.
I'm not sure if it's true that it is more difficult for slim T2#s, but my HbA1C down from 53 to 45 and weight down from 170lbs to 148lbs in 4 months on Low Carb with no conscious calorie reduction. And still both HbA1C and weight are dropping. Currently 44 and 142lbs after 17 months.
Click to expand...

He's part of the "team" for paid for app?
He is listed as having potential conflicts of interest as an advisor to diabetes.co.uk.
Which also seems to link to the same app he has his name on?

But obviously, no one is saying any link would have any bearing on the science of any study are they?
 
Status
This thread is now closed. Please contact Anna DUK, Ieva DUK or everydayupsanddowns if you would like it re-opened.
Back
Top