Whatever Johnson says, we can’t defeat Covid with ‘personal responsibility’ alone

[Northerner]

At a time when Covid cases in Britain stand at some 25,000 per day and are doubling every nine days or so, the government has chosen to lift nearly all remaining Covid measures. Boris Johnson stressed in a press conference on 5 July that this didn’t mean the pandemic was over. Far from it. He acknowledged the policy change would lead to even more infections, hospitalisations, even deaths. But his repeated mantra was that we must change the way we deal with the pandemic and “move from universal government diktat to relying on people’s personal responsibility”.

This stress on “personal responsibility” has been a defining part of the government’s message throughout the pandemic, frequently accompanied by the suggestion that rises in infection are the result of irresponsible behaviour: flouting rules, holding house parties or (as Matt Hancock claimed when speaking about spiking cases in Bolton), choosing not to get vaccinated. But never before has personal responsibility been the government’s sole tool in the fight against Covid.

There is a crucial problem with this policy shift. Wearing masks, social distancing and self-isolating are all areas where my behaviours impact you. Just as my choice to drive fast affects your chances of travelling safely, so my choice to wear a mask or not impacts your chances of getting infected. Because these behaviours are a “we” rather than an “I” thing, we generally accept that they should be regulated at a communal level. We don’t regard that as “diktat” – much in the same way that we don’t regard speeding laws or the Highway Code as tyranny. To the contrary, the absence of such rules creates a free-for-all in which the powerful generally do what they like and the powerless pay the consequences.

Whatever Johnson says, we can’t defeat Covid with ‘personal responsibility’ alone | Stephen Reicher

Making measures such as mask-wearing an individual choice sends a message that they’re no longer important, says Stephen Reicher, a member of the Sage subcommittee advising on behavioural science

www.theguardian.com

 

[pm133]

People like Stephen Reicher are not simply going to walk away quietly from their positions of control and influence so this sort of statement shouldn't be a surprise.

I expect the levels of shrieking hysteria from people like him to continue to grow for some time.
In the meantime, serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths amongst doubly vaccinated people continues to essentially flatline.

The big problems to solve are finishing off the vaccination program, working out what to do with the crippling test and trace which is currently leaving the NHS chronically short staffed and finally what we do about school age kids.

Everything else from government "science" advisors like Reicher, Susan Michie, Christina Pagel, Deepti Gurdasani, Devi Sridhar and a host of others is just distracting noise.

 

[pm133]

So that's both Javid and Johnson both confirmed that legally enforced mask wearing will cease next Monday as well as all other social distancing in England.
All businesses can now re-open with no limits on attendance at sporting events.

I honestly thought they were going to back-pedal from this.

Looks pretty close to back to normal to me.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

I honestly thought they were going to back-pedal from this.

I think they can't in the sense that I think the regulatory law expires and there's little chance they'd be able to persuade their MPs to vote to extend it again. (Labour might possibly support some kind of extension but that has obvious problems.)

(They could possibly get an extension of some bits (masks on public transport, for example) but it seems like those will happen by other means anyway.)

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Looks pretty close to back to normal to me.

Unless you're looking to have non-urgent surgery any time soon.

 

[Northerner]

Looks pretty close to back to normal to me.

Basically, what Javid and Johnson said was that the only thing they want to change is that they no longer have to take the responsibility and blame for anything - do what you want, but we'd now rather that you didn't because it will probably end badly. No mixed messages there, then Big shift in tone from a week ago, which suggests the numbers are actually worse than they were expecting and now they are worried their gamble might not pay off.

Mixed messages: the changing government narrative on face masks

When poll showed people thought Covid rules were being eased too quickly, the messaging changed

www.theguardian.com

 

[pm133]

Basically, what Javid and Johnson said was that the only thing they want to change is that they no longer have to take the responsibility and blame for anything - do what you want, but we'd now rather that you didn't because it will probably end badly. No mixed messages there, then Big shift in tone from a week ago, which suggests the numbers are actually worse than they were expecting and now they are worried their gamble might not pay off.

Mixed messages: the changing government narrative on face masks

When poll showed people thought Covid rules were being eased too quickly, the messaging changed

www.theguardian.com

If they don't open now would you accept another full year of restrictions on the back of numbers which show low numbers of hospitalisations and very few deaths?
That was the only other credible option because they cannot open up after September in case anything goes wrong right at the start of flu season.

So what would you do?
Open now or wait another year?

 

[trophywench]

Well of course it will be entirely our own fault if anyone happens to catch 'IT' after next Monday. Not like anyone could ever attach blame to 'The Government' for anything whatever, now is it? AND most importantly - it is absolutely de rigeur to ALWAYS have someone to attach BLAME to, for anything and everything.

 

[pm133]

Well of course it will be entirely our own fault if anyone happens to catch 'IT' after next Monday. Not like anyone could ever attach blame to 'The Government' for anything whatever, now is it? AND most importantly - it is absolutely de rigeur to ALWAYS have someone to attach BLAME to, for anything and everything.

No problem with others expressing an opinion but in my experience, those who indulge most in finger pointing and blame casting are almost always the last to come up with any credible alternative solutions of their own which don't fall apart within 20 seconds of questioning.

I can count the number of exceptions on one hand.

It seems to be one of those facts of life things.

If people want to criticise, they should be brave enough to suggest an alternative and then be brave enough to face having that alternative questioned - all done in a civil manner of course. We'd be a better society for that I think. Just as an aside, rich people are excellent at this because they are taught how to properly debate from school level onwards. There's a lesson there I think.

 

[Lucyr]

The advice for those of us with diabetes / cv / cev was a bit confusing, I expected more of a stronger message for us about continuing to work from home if you can. All I’ve found is that it’s suggested you avoid meeting people indoors and avoid unvaccinated people. I don’t really understand what that means in reality though for what I should / shouldn’t be doing, whether I have enough to say i need to continue working from home should my employer request us to go back now, etc.

 

[trophywench]

@Lucyr - I think that the Gov expects every employed person in the UK to be able to have a calm discussion about their own personal situation with their employer and reach a mutually acceptable solution.

How the heck does one 'avoid unvaccinated people' in the first place?

 

[Lucyr]

@Lucyr - I think that the Gov expects every employed person in the UK to be able to have a calm discussion about their own personal situation with their employer and reach a mutually acceptable solution.

How the heck does one 'avoid unvaccinated people' in the first place?

To avoid unvaccinated people I presume you just need to not go anywhere near your kids/grandkids/pupils if you’re a teacher/unidentifiable unvaccinated strangers that might come near you…. Etc?

 

[pm133]

The advice for those of us with diabetes / cv / cev was a bit confusing, I expected more of a stronger message for us about continuing to work from home if you can. All I’ve found is that it’s suggested you avoid meeting people indoors and avoid unvaccinated people. I don’t really understand what that means in reality though for what I should / shouldn’t be doing, whether I have enough to say i need to continue working from home should my employer request us to go back now, etc.

In reality it means the government has no further advice for those of us who are vulnerable.
They believe they've done everything they can reasonably be expected to do and that it's up to us to now decide how we want to deal with any ongoing risks.

They've doubly vaccinated most people now and will continue that but they now believe they need to turn their attention to more pressing matters which are resulting in significantly higher death levels than covid such as cancer.

If anyone is seriously worried about masking, I suggest you go and buy some FFP3 masks as I believe that evidence shows they will protect the wearer. That way the wearer becomes less dependent on others to wear their masks. There were some figures showing that NHS wards which used them instead of the normal blue masks saw a dramatic reduction in staff sickness. I'm actually not sure why the government are not recommending that as a way forward for vulnerable people.

 

[trophywench]

They've only vaccinated those that accept vaccinations voluntarily. One lady we know by virtue of being members of the same caravan/camping club and met her and her husband on club rallies in France, and still see her virtually on Zoom meetings didn't go for hers; she's never had a flu jab either - she's never had flu anyway so reckons that means she's never going to get the flu and has said all along that she can't see the point of jabbing against Covid either.

I can avoid her if I happen to see her of course, since I know who she is. You don't - so how on earth are you supposed to avoid your paths crossing?

Just because people happen to be elderly and not in an ethnic group who it's been said/publicised may be vaccine averse, we cannot safely assume folk at large will have been vaccinated. Some will and some won't.

 

[mikeyB]

Some folk (including Northie) forget that Boris Johnson only governs England's Covid Policy. In Scotland, as pm133 knows, mask wearing and social distancing is maintained and mandatory in public places. Wales is also slightly different.

It seems the Scottish government has in mind the current increase in cases, which is entirely the fault of the English government not putting India on the no fly and no entry list at the same time as it did Pakistan and Bangladesh, allowing the new variant to enter the country free as bird to take root and spread throughout the UK. And now Boris won't make even masks mandatory or social distancing compulsory, relying on our own personal judgement. My own personal judgement is Boris is not fit to lead the country as cases multiply. Every scientist from the WHO downwards thinks it is too soon for "Freedom Day". It sure isn't Freedom Day for for folk like our Amigo for whom vaccines won't work.

 

[pm133]

They've only vaccinated those that accept vaccinations voluntarily. One lady we know by virtue of being members of the same caravan/camping club and met her and her husband on club rallies in France, and still see her virtually on Zoom meetings didn't go for hers; she's never had a flu jab either - she's never had flu anyway so reckons that means she's never going to get the flu and has said all along that she can't see the point of jabbing against Covid either.

I can avoid her if I happen to see her of course, since I know who she is. You don't - so how on earth are you supposed to avoid your paths crossing?

Just because people happen to be elderly and not in an ethnic group who it's been said/publicised may be vaccine averse, we cannot safely assume folk at large will have been vaccinated. Some will and some won't.

No government can ever guarantee safety but that seems to be what people are demanding now.
We don't live in a society where we force people to put medicine in their bodies against their clearly expressed will and the argument of the knock-on effect on others as a result of refusing vaccines isn't good enough to change that principle.
The way I feel about this is to ask myself a question - who am I to insist that someone else takes medicine against their will just to keep me feeling safe?

You can't be sure to avoid unvaccinated people and there's simply no resolution to that. Not in England, not in Scotland, not in Australia, not in the US. Not anywhere. Nobody has an answer to this.

There are no guarantees with covid or any other virus. The vaccines are not 100%, masks don't work, lockdown isn't 100% because we still have to shop, social distancing isn't 100%, shutting down football, pubs and nightclubs hasn't worked and a combination of all of that over the span of an entire year hasn't worked either. We see wave after wave of cases in every country in the world where they've been unable to strictly close their borders (presumably permanently).

So what do we vulnerable people do? My choice is to say f**k it, I'm living my life and if I catch this and die then so be it. We only get a few years of life anyway. The alternative is to never see my kids or my friends again and lock myself in my house, ekeing out an existence until I die, terrified that at any second I might catch this thing and quite frankly that's not a life I'm interested in living. I'm not going to criticise others for making different choices but I'm fed up with other people restricting my personal decisions. It's been a year. I'm doubly vaccinated as are most other vulnerable people. There really is nothing more which can credibly be done.

 

[pm133]

Some folk (including Northie) forget that Boris Johnson only governs England's Covid Policy. In Scotland, as pm133 knows, mask wearing and social distancing is maintained and mandatory in public places. Wales is also slightly different.

It seems the Scottish government has in mind the current increase in cases, which is entirely the fault of the English government not putting India on the no fly and no entry list at the same time as it did Pakistan and Bangladesh, allowing the new variant to enter the country free as bird to take root and spread throughout the UK. And now Boris won't make even masks mandatory or social distancing compulsory, relying on our own personal judgement. My own personal judgement is Boris is not fit to lead the country as cases multiply. Every scientist from the WHO downwards thinks it is too soon for "Freedom Day". It sure isn't Freedom Day for for folk like our Amigo for whom vaccines won't work.

The current Scottish government is absolutely terrified of being tarred with the same brush as Boris but they are hamstrung about what restrictions they can keep in place once England goes to full freedom and furlough payments stop.

So they continue to make a song and dance about "caring more" whilst keeping themselves 3 weeks behind England so that they can see whether Boris' plans work before committing themselves to the same path. It's an abdication of responsibility. Whatever you think of Boris, he at least has the balls to make a decision. Nicola has fallen well short of the mark on that score.

I like Nicola but today's nonsense about masking remaining "for some time" has finally cost her my vote after countless years of voting SNP. If she truly cared about the vulnerable, she'd issue FFP3 masks. Instead we have this ongoing charade. It's looking very much like masks are going to remain until next year now and if that happens, there's a very real risk they'll be kept in law permanently.

 

[pm133]

Every scientist from the WHO downwards thinks it is too soon for "Freedom Day".

Mikey, that isn't even remotely true.
Scientists are divided on everything about covid from masks to lockdown and the end of restrictions. You'll find disagreement at every major institution in the world.
Most scientific discussion doesn't happen under the glare of BBC news reports.
There is no scientific consensus because there are no definitive answers on anything.

If anyone thinks they can get scientists to agree on anything, good luck to you.

 

[mikeyB]

@pm133, you keep saying masks don't work. That is only true if you are wearing a mask and nobody else is. They won't protect against a heavy virus load in, say a sneeze. But if everyone wears a mask, the risk of droplet spread is reduced by around 90%. This has been scientifically (and practically) demonstrated.

You will have noticed that in those countries who endured the SARS epidemic instantly started wearing masks, and as a result were able to keep the virus under control, and operate their T&T without any overwhelming problem. And the people knew that was what they had to do, it was hardly necessary for governments to advise that, it's just what they do in epidemics.

And are you saying the Scottish government is not reacting to scientific and epidemical advice?

 

[Lucyr]

In reality it means the government has no further advice for those of us who are vulnerable.
They believe they've done everything they can reasonably be expected to do and that it's up to us to now decide how we want to deal with any ongoing risks.

They've doubly vaccinated most people now and will continue that but they now believe they need to turn their attention to more pressing matters which are resulting in significantly higher death levels than covid such as cancer.

If anyone is seriously worried about masking, I suggest you go and buy some FFP3 masks as I believe that evidence shows they will protect the wearer. That way the wearer becomes less dependent on others to wear their masks. There were some figures showing that NHS wards which used them instead of the normal blue masks saw a dramatic reduction in staff sickness. I'm actually not sure why the government are not recommending that as a way forward for vulnerable people.

My issue in that I’m not able to wear a mask myself. There are some places I can limit my exposure such as going shopping at a quiet time (can’t really do home delivery as I live alone and don’t meet the minimum spend), but others like work where I need to see what my employer decides is the plan.