What is meant by False Hypos

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Proud to be erratic

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I recently commented on a thread which included a comment by @Lucyr suggesting a 'false hypo'. My simple understanding of that term was different to how @Lucyr was applying it. I've since done a couple of searches, one within this forum and one on Google and I can see there a variety of interpretations overall, with members of this forum applying really quite different understandings. Is there a medically agreed or understood meaning of the phrase "false hypo"?
 
@Pattidevans has answered this in a different thread as:

"A false hypo is when you feel the symptoms but are in fact not actually hypo. Usually this is caused by the body being used to higher levels and when it drops - to say 4.7 - your body reacts as it would towards a real hypo i.e. you experience the symptoms. Nothing to do with the technology."

Is this the agreed medical position?
 
In answer to your last question, I havn't looked but I doubt it.

The way I look at it is that a "false" hypo is in the same category as "vegan" sausage. Some would say that sausages are a way of using up scrap meat and as such cannot be vegan. Others would say that sausages are small round long things enclosed in a skin and so you can have vegan sausages. You pays your penny and takes your choice. It would be easier if vegans would invent another name for them.

Not in anyway trying to make light of the matter but to me a hypo is where the sufferer is in trouble and is going to be in real trouble if it is not treated. A false hypo is where somebody has low blood glucose and feels a bit iffy because of it but is not going to come to real harm if it is ignored. In my view, like vegan sausage, it needs another name!
 
Docb said:
In answer to your last question, I havn't looked but I doubt it.

The way I look at it is that a "false" hypo is in the same category as "vegan" sausage. Some would say that sausages are a way of using up scrap meat and as such cannot be vegan. Others would say that sausages are small round long things enclosed in a skin and so you can have vegan sausages. You pays your penny and takes your choice. It would be easier if vegans would invent another name for them.

Not in anyway trying to make light of the matter but to me a hypo is where the sufferer is in trouble and is going to be in real trouble if it is not treated. A false hypo is where somebody has low blood glucose and feels a bit iffy because of it but is not going to come to real harm if it is ignored. In my view, like vegan sausage, it needs another name!
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A bit like when I was a kid, my Dad was vegetarian and we had what were called nut meat rissoles, a complete misnomer.
Many people who are veggie or vegan don't like the thought let alone the taste or texture of meat so to give things a meat associated name is all wrong.
 
Proud to be erratic said:
I recently commented on a thread which included a comment by @Lucyr suggesting a 'false hypo'. My simple understanding of that term was different to how @Lucyr was applying it. I've since done a couple of searches, one within this forum and one on Google and I can see there a variety of interpretations overall, with members of this forum applying really quite different understandings. Is there a medically agreed or understood meaning of the phrase "false hypo"?
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The two reasons I can think of are either, false as in a false low reading, when meter says below 4 when actual level is above 4. Other way is when blood sugars drop quickly from high and can give the feeling of a hypo even if still above 4mmol.
 
From my first link:
False hypoglycemia
“I feel like I am having low blood glucose, but the meter reads normal”.
False hypoglycemia is having the symptoms of hypoglycemia when your blood
glucose levels are in normal range or even above normal range.
False hypoglycemia may occur in:
• People with newly diagnosed diabetes whose blood glucose was significantly
above normal, and is now lower
• People, previously diagnosed with diabetes, with repeated high blood glucose
levels, who now are experiencing improved glucose control
When treatment for the high blood glucose is started, blood glucose may return to
normal ranges rapidly. Even though the blood glucose levels are near the normal range,
the body feels this level is too low and will present the signs and symptoms of hypoglycemia.
These are not true symptoms of hypoglycemia and are not dangerous to the body.

Try googling pseudohypoglycaemia.
 
Benny G said:
And on a lighter note

A false or fake vegetarian presents as vegetarian for the sake of the animals, but allows bacon, because bacon is ok
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What gets me is all the “not bacon” and “not ham” and stuff that you see in the shops, plant based food dressed up to look like meat. What is the point of that? If you don’t want to eat meat, don’t eat it, I’m certainly not going to get into an argument about the ethics of it; but why pretend? Just eat a plate of vegetables and be proud! And then you go to a pub for a meal and they have “not fish and chips” on the menu, and they proudly tell you that there is no fish in it but they don’t tell you what it actually is. Forgive me, but if I’m going to choose a meal in a pub or restaurant I want to know what it is made of, not what it isn’t!
 
Sally71 said:
What gets me is all the “not bacon” and “not ham” and stuff that you see in the shops, plant based food dressed up to look like meat. What is the point of that? If you don’t want to eat meat, don’t eat it, I’m certainly not going to get into an argument about the ethics of it; but why pretend? Just eat a plate of vegetables and be proud! And then you go to a pub for a meal and they have “not fish and chips” on the menu, and they proudly tell you that there is no fish in it but they don’t tell you what it actually is. Forgive me, but if I’m going to choose a meal in a pub or restaurant I want to know what it is made of, not what it isn’t!
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I'm an ethical vegetarian of 30 years, ie I don't eat meat for ethical reasons, rather than not eating it because I don't like the taste.
I'm very chilled about what other people eat, meat eaters or not, it's up to them. I hope that they return the favour.

I guess the point of pretend meat style products is that it's easy - I've got veggie sausages in the freezer to cook when I can't be bothered to do anything more elaborate. I also miss the taste of bacon etc, so having a veggie bacon and brown sauce roll works for me.
I'm not deluding myself that it's actual meaty bacon, it's just a convenience and taste thing, and meat analogues generally are made from protein sources, like quorn, tofu, soya or seitan/wheat gluten, so are closer to meat nutritionally than, for instance, a carrot would be, though I love vegetables and mushrooms.
Also, putting a carrot in the roll with a bit of brown sauce wouldn't work for me.
I used to cook fish and chicken for my (sadly departed) cat, as she was an obligate carnivore, so I'm quite chilled about cooking it too.
Each to their own.
 
i really must offer my apologies to @Proud to be erratic for the way my initial post derailed their thread!

I thoroughly endorse the idea of trying to find out whether a label has a defined meaning or is something that is used as a convenience, a way of summarising a bit sloppily something quite complicated. I fear that the label "false hypo" is one of those conveniences and as such should be used with that in mind.

Don't think I have ever used the term myself and do not think I ever will because of its imprecision.
 
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Docb said:
i really must offer my apologies to @Proud to be erratic for the way my original post has derailed their thread!
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Go on with you Docb, it was a really good analogy.
However, saying that, I'm part of the derailment, so my apologies also to @Proud to be erratic.

Thought it was an interesting and useful thread, despite the tangental sausages.
I had what I think was a false hypo a couple of months ago, and felt dreadful. I take off my hat to everyone who has both false and real hypos, you are all built of sterner stuff than me.
 
Sally71 said:
What gets me is all the “not bacon” and “not ham” and stuff that you see in the shops, plant based food dressed up to look like meat. What is the point of that? If you don’t want to eat meat, don’t eat it, I’m certainly not going to get into an argument about the ethics of it; but why pretend? Just eat a plate of vegetables and be proud! And then you go to a pub for a meal and they have “not fish and chips” on the menu, and they proudly tell you that there is no fish in it but they don’t tell you what it actually is. Forgive me, but if I’m going to choose a meal in a pub or restaurant I want to know what it is made of, not what it isn’t!
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Not all vegetarains avoid meat by choice.
For example, I have a friend who is allergic to meat but still enjoys the taste of meat.
There are also people who want to reduce their meat intake due to the environmental impact of meat farming.
 
Interesting thread!

I mostly consider false hypos in the context @Pattidevans links outline - someone having run high consistently for a while, and their ‘glucose thermostat’ gets messed up, such that they feel quite strong, and very real hypo warning signs when in the 4s or 5s.

But @Amity Island ’s post reminds me about the references to ‘false hypos’ and ‘compression lows’ where other glucose sensing devices (eg Libre), which can give readings in the 3s when fingerstick readings and the person’s symptoms say they are not hypo at all.
 
Docb said:
i really must offer my apologies to @Proud to be erratic for the way my initial post derailed their thread!
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Absolutely no problem @Docb I've loved the lighter touches and been chuckling most of today about this. Where else could you get from false hypoglycaemia to nut meat rissoles in 6 steps? Shows the flexibility of the English language and diversity of diabetic dreamers!!
Docb said:
I thoroughly endorse the idea of trying to find out whether a label has a defined meaning or is something that is used as a convenience, a way of summarising a bit sloppily something quite complicated. I fear that the label "false hypo" is one of those conveniences and as such should be used with that in mind.
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Well, now that we have better guidance on what it means - the body responding falsely rather than technology providing false information - and that the term "false hypo" has a real meaning, I will do my bit to try and use the term in a correct context. But I'm glad I asked the question.

My brother was a double amputee of his legs and regularly had phantom pains from his non-existent toes. They continued throughout his 11 yrs confined to a wheelchair.
Docb said:
Don't think I have ever used the term myself and do not think I ever will because of its imprecision.
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everydayupsanddowns said:
Interesting thread!
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Thank you, I'm glad I started it and cleared my own mind.
everydayupsanddowns said:
I mostly consider false hypos in the context @Pattidevans links outline - someone having run high consistently for a while, and their ‘glucose thermostat’ gets messed up, such that they feel quite strong, and very real hypo warning signs when in the 4s or 5s.
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The interesting thing here for me was that I had no idea this could happen; but still learning. I've never researched my 'glucose thermostat' ... something else to rummage ....! Joking apart I've just taken for granted that when low my body tells me, but never considered exploring why / how.
everydayupsanddowns said:
But @Amity Island ’s post reminds me about the references to ‘false hypos’ and ‘compression lows’ where other glucose sensing devices (eg Libre), which can give readings in the 3s when fingerstick readings and the person’s symptoms say they are not hypo at all.
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But we now know the 'false hypos' here are actually 'false readings' and it's just a matter of pausing and applying the correct vocabulary....?🙂 'Compression lows' is fine as a term and is something that gives those false readings.

Also, the original observation in some other thread by @Lucyr was applying the correct interpretation of 'false hypos'. Thankyou @Lucyr for nudging me into understanding something else.
 
I think it might be more useful to talk about "hypo sensitivity or detection" I think it is important for people to realize that there is nothing desperately remarkable about 4.0 or 3.9 as some non diabetic people drop below these levels particularly in the deepest part of their sleep and don't wake up. I think there is a level of unconscious anxiety with insulin dependent diabetics which causes some of us to be able to train our brains to wake us up when levels are dropping low and I often wake up just before I drop below 4 (I have Libre 1, so no alarms) or other times it takes until I am into the 3s to wake me. Sometimes it can be the speed of the drop which causes the hypo sensation to be more intense or trigger symptoms earlier and the height from which it is dropping, so dropping from 15 down to 5 in half an hour might make you feel some hypo symptoms when you are still well above 4.

I think there is also confusion with DVLA license applications. The question about "Have you had any hypos?" (silly question!!) and "Do you have good hypo awareness? You can look at it that if you have good hypo awareness then why are you having hypos and I am sure some newbies find this confusing or wonder if they don't have good hypo awareness because they are actually "hypo" (under 4 by most definitions) by the time they notice it.

One person might have hypo symptoms at 4.2 most of the time and another person might not get signs until they are down to 3.6 or 2.9 .... or..... as most of us probably know, it varies depending upon various other factors, just like anything else with diabetes. If those people all experience hypo symptoms and recognize them then they all have good hypo awareness, but who decides at what point it is happening too late? ie what do they really mean by "good hypo awareness" ?? It is all rather subjective in my opinion. To me the only important question is the one about "Have you needed assistance with a hypo?".... ie have your levels dropped so low before you realised that someone else needed to intervene and help you... and as for a GP filling a form in, it is ludicrous because my GP would have no idea if I have ever needed assistance and I would imagine most people are the same unless paramedics have been involved or a trip to hospital.

Anyway, getting back to the main theme. I think you need to consider what actually constitutes "a hypo" before you can start to define a false one, although the general consensus of below 4 is a hypo and above 4 is a false one. Since none diabetics can drop below 4 without symptoms, is that a hypo? To me the only reason 4 is chosen is perhaps to help us preserve our hypo awareness at a slightly elevated level, so that we have more chance of spotting it early before it drops below 3.6 which I think is actually more reasonable level for an actual hypo and something which was mentioned on my DAFNE course...... So perhaps when we experience signs at 3.9 or 3.8 as well as 4.2 these also might be considered to be false hypos.... depending upon how you define a hypo.

You are right though it is about how your personal hypo awareness thermostat is calibrated and ideally keeping it at perhaps a slightly inflated level for those of us using insulin to enable us to detect hypos in plenty of time to treat them.

Just my thoughts 🙄
 
hmm, Yesterday at work I felt it at 4.7 I figured it was either because one was coming on or the fact that I had not long been 10.4 but when I got in there were no obvious signs of the 3.7 I just happened to check them when I got in(i should have a stack when I saw 6.9 before working home I remember next time though) I did start to feel it after I treat it and waited don't know it if that was a mind thing or not. perhaps I would have caught it if I wasn't tired from work anyway. perhaps not. but when dianoasged I would sometimes get false hypos at 8. my blood sugar was 35 when diagnosed
 
Windy said:
I'm an ethical vegetarian of 30 years, ie I don't eat meat for ethical reasons, rather than not eating it because I don't like the taste.
I'm very chilled about what other people eat, meat eaters or not, it's up to them. I hope that they return the favour.

I guess the point of pretend meat style products is that it's easy - I've got veggie sausages in the freezer to cook when I can't be bothered to do anything more elaborate. I also miss the taste of bacon etc, so having a veggie bacon and brown sauce roll works for me.
I'm not deluding myself that it's actual meaty bacon, it's just a convenience and taste thing, and meat analogues generally are made from protein sources, like quorn, tofu, soya or seitan/wheat gluten, so are closer to meat nutritionally than, for instance, a carrot would be, though I love vegetables and mushrooms.
Also, putting a carrot in the roll with a bit of brown sauce wouldn't work for me.
I used to cook fish and chicken for my (sadly departed) cat, as she was an obligate carnivore, so I'm quite chilled about cooking it too.
Each to their own.
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Since the thread has already gone off topic, can I ask what was the "thing" the "point" which convinced you to go vegetarian? @Inka helped me in this direction in one of her posts on here a while back, but although I have as a result greatly reduced meat in my diet, I still haven't given it up completely.
 
Amity Island said:
Since the thread has already gone off topic, can I ask what was the "thing" the "point" which convinced you to go vegetarian? @Inka helped me in this direction in one of her posts on here a while back, but although I have as a result greatly reduced meat in my diet, I still haven't given it up completely.
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It's going to sound ridiculous, but it was cows that made me go vegetarian. I used to walk past a farm with beef cattle in the field, and the cows would come up to the fence. They're inquisitive creatures, and will come and check you out, and a couple of them would let you scratch their ears (if you search in youtube for cow scratching machines, cows are clearly having a great time with the scratching machine).
So, I made a connection of sorts with them, and couldn't bear the thought of them being on my plate, so I cut out beef, then everything else eventually after that over a space of a year or so. There's loads of other reasons for being vegetarian (welfare/ environmental), but this isn't the place for them really, particularly on a thread on hypos.
 
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