Type 3c's (if it's not too personal a question) how did it happen?

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Austin_98

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Type 3c
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I'd never heard of type 3c before I had it, I'm just curious how other people became type 3c? Is it always pancreatitis?
For me it was a combination of self-induced vomiting (5-7 times a day) and alcohol (6 bottles of wine a day). I had severe abdominal pain and vomiting coffee-grounds blood. Was eventually hospitalized when my mum called an ambulance as I had a seizure and was diagnosed with/treated for "severe alcohol withdrawal complicated by acute pancreatitis"* I hate that I did this to myself. I had never heard of pancreatitis, either, until I had it.

*Alcohol withdrawal is more life-threatening than acute pancreatitis is why it was prioritized.
 
Hi Austin.Type 3c is usually defined as essentially Type 1 so an insulin deficiency but caused as a result of pancreatic damage/ removal rather than as a result of an auto immune reason.
As the level of damage can vary it is possible for the Pancreas to be producing some insulin and therefore controlled by Metaformin rather than insulin but in time most people will need insulin.
I had a severe acute pancreatitis attack caused by gallstones which led to extensive necrosis of my exocrine cells and then led to my diabetes diagnosis 18 months after my AP attack.
 
PS itis means inflammation so pancreatitis is simply inflammation of the pancreas but it is such a major organ it can lead to lasting damage.
However most people who get AP attacks the cells are not killed and hence they usually make a full recovery
 
I think of Type 3c as quite different to Type 1. The only thing they share in common is a deficiency of insulin, but that’s about all. Type 1 is auto-immune. Type 3c isn’t and, moreover, if there’s pancreatic damage and partial or total removal of the pancreas, then Type 3c might have so-called brittle diabetes because their alpha cells are messed up too. In addition, they usually need Creon to replace the pancreatic enzymes.

I only know one person with Type 3c (after surgery) and they’re quite vocal about the fact they’re not Type 1. I understand why because it’s different. More than that, there’s a fair bit of ignorance about Type 3c so I can see the benefit of stating you’re actually Type 3c.
 
Hi Inka you are absolutely correct in highlighting the additional differences between Type 1 and 3c ie the role of the Alpha cells which make it more brittle and the digestive issues requiring Creon.
My definition of 3c being more closely related to Type 1 as opposed to Type 2 is purely my simplistic difference between insulin deficiency and resistance.
As 3c ( except where the pancreatic damage is not as severe) normally requires exogenous insulin then that is why I identify it with Type 1.
ATB
 
Hi Inka you are absolutely correct in highlighting the additional differences between Type 1 and 3c ie the role of the Alpha cells which make it more brittle and the digestive issues requiring Creon.
My definition of 3c being more closely related to Type 1 as opposed to Type 2 is purely my simplistic difference between insulin deficiency and resistance.
As 3c ( except where the pancreatic damage is not as severe) normally requires exogenous insulin then that is why I identify it with Type 1.
ATB
There are however Type 2s whose beta cells are burnt out and therefore need insulin and usually in very large doses, so the necessity for insulin isn't really relevant to the Type of diabetes, it is only the cause which defines it, which is why many of us feel that it is important that the term Type 3c is used and as a result better recognised. It is different to Type 1 and Type 2 and comes with it's own variations, quirks and challenges.
 
PS itis means inflammation so pancreatitis is simply inflammation of the pancreas but it is such a major organ it can lead to lasting damage.
However most people who get AP attacks the cells are not killed and hence they usually make a full recovery

I wonder why mine didn't recover :/
85% was destroyed in the initial attack and the other 15% has since been damaged, too. I did have a particularly severe case, though, I was in hospital for 3 months and given a 20% chance of surviving at one point.
 
I wonder why mine didn't recover :/
85% was destroyed in the initial attack and the other 15% has since been damaged, too. I did have a particularly severe case, though, I was in hospital for 3 months and given a 20% chance of surviving at one point.
Sorry to hear that Austin it was much worse than mine and I was only in hospital 3 weeks but not ITU.
Pancreatic cells once necrotised do not recover but the vast majority of people that have an acute pancreatitis attack do not have necrosis hence they make a full recovery once the cause say gallbladder has been removed.
If you have alcohol related pancreatitis then you have a higher chance of incremental damage to other organs.
Hope you are doing OK
 
Mine was alcohol related they said even though my gp had done blood tests i went to a/e because i could hardly walk , i had pnuemonia then they found acute attack of pancreatitis i had infection vomiting etc , 60 per cent pancreatic damage and severe necrotising pancreatitis 3 weeks later i was hospital 3 months twice they discharged me i told them i was still very ill but was back in then in a kind of rehab , also caught c-diff and water infections and found i had enlarged prostate when i told them i was not passing water properly , that was 2 years ago i have been re admited about 5 times since then with acute attacks , i have suffered with anxiety . depression , bioplar etc for years this made it all ten times worse , i cannot and never have trusted the system which now is at an all time low
 
i now have pain and bad constipation its destroyed me some days i cannot sleep or eat , i go back to a/e and they just say oh your sugars are 20 its not so bad and give you pain relief , the thing that angered me so much was my gp did not listen and tried to say it was probably my anxiety and paranoia , the truth was if i had not gone to a/e 2 years ago i probably would have been gone by now, so everybody as their story mine is i don't trust the system at all , and some of nurses and doctors are rubbish too
 
Anxious so sorry to hear about your traumatic times and wish you all the best with your struggles.
I was lucky in that I had no other co morbidities and my general health was good with a good support network.My pancreas has suffered damage but with the Creon and the insulin I can live a pretty normal life
 
Now they are saying i am a kind of type 3 c , i have some friends in a mental health peer support group who have diabetes they have said to me do these people really know the truth about their diagnoses
 
Anxious so sorry to hear about your traumatic times and wish you all the best with your struggles.
I was lucky in that I had no other co morbidities and my general health was good with a good support network.My pancreas has suffered damage but with the Creon and the insulin I can live a pretty normal life
Thanks yes i am on creon now i have to take it every time i eat or drink also on metformin , and insulin toujeo and turapi and its still not right , i think my pancreas is knackered but i still feel so much anger i kept telling them there was something badly wrong but they just fobbed me off ,like it was a psychotic or hypochondriacal fantasy
 
The very short answer, @Anxious 63, is NO. T3c is not always from pancreatitis. But this short answer is unhelpful.

The type of Diabetes is diagnosed from the cause of hyperglycaemia, not the treatment.

As @Inka has said T1 is caused by the autoimmune condition, leading to this killing off their beta cells and thus losing the ability to produce insulin. Generally insulin is the treatment but there are exceptions where oral meds are sufficient, even if only in the early stages. T1s are c.10% of diabetes diagnoses.

T2 is a consequence of high insulin resistance, generally oral meds are the starting treatment and sometimes T2s need extra insulin as well (often in seriously large quantities). T2s are the majority c. 90%.

T3cs are people who have damage to their pancreas, for a variety of reasons [other than the autoimmune condition]. They might have quite limited pancreatic damage and can start on oral meds, but might need to become insulin dependent. All of the other Types are a very small part of the D community, and other than Gestational D we all have descriptors that mean nothing to anyone not involved with D!!

I am someone who feels fairly strongly that its important that T3c is properly recognised as a Diabetes diagnosis in its own right and not just considered as a variant of T1.

I'm T3c because my pancreas was damaged by surgery. I had pancreatic cancer from a tumour that was engulfing my pancreas and the visible symptoms for that was jaundice, caused by the bile duct being strangled. Immediately before my surgery the Surgeon had formally told me that a total pancreatectomy was a possibility, but he would only know once they opened me up; if the tumour could be removed by a partial panc'y then I might even not end up diabetic - naturally I hoped it would be that way. But here I am. I found this "Type 3c diabetes, also known as ‘pancreatogenic diabetes’, is a form of secondary diabetes, that may occur as a result of the pancreatic disorders such as pancreatitis, cystic fibrosis, hemochromatosis, pancreatic cancer, pancreatomy and some neonatal diabetic cases caused by pancreatic agenesis".

Curiously my Hospital paperwork discharged me as T1, which I'm clearly not. But it was put to me that by discharging me as T1 would give me 2 future advantages:
1. It would always make me eligible for Diabetic Specialist Services, ie Hospital Consults.​
2. And should I end up in A& E unable to speak for myself I would always be recognised from my medical records as needing insulin.​
Both those reasons have helped me reconcile that initial misleading diagnosis of T1 - but I feel I'm on a personal mission to educate any HCP I come into contact with that T3c is real and different from T1.

The much wider problem is that T3c is now officially, but quietly, recognised by the NHS, but that recognition is sadly lacking in so many NHS "corners". There is some history which explains this.

In North America, some years ago, people with dementia were called Type 3s; particularly insulin dependent diabetics. This gained some traction and an International Conference sponsored in USA by the American Diabetes Association (ADA) went several steps further in agreeing that the diagnosis of T3 would help identify insulin dependency for those unable to manage their D because of their dementia. But this was felt by delegates that it was also ducking a bigger problem of many diagnoses of diabetes simply did not fit a T1 or T2 diagnosis. In particular people who had damage to their pancreas from all sorts of circumstances and thus had their insulin production impaired (steroid and alcohol abuse were both specifically mentioned as possible causes for damage to the pancreas) fell into this 'third' Type. The Conference finished by recommending there should be several T3 sub categories, from T3a to T3k, while still adopting Type 3 for dementia sufferers. Unfortunately the World Health Organisation (WHO) and a few others didn't support the recommendations; so the new categories for all T3 types were parked, rather than being fully accepted and thus widely adopted.

Each of the proposed subtypes for T3 a-k have one clear thing in common: their pancreatic damage is a consequence of some other co-morbidity and often that co-morbidity makes management of an individual's D even more complicated than it already is from T1 or T2. The Conference proposed "Type 3e diabetes. This form of diabetes is any diabetes that has been induced by chemical or drugs. For example, high doses of steroids, taken for an extended period of time, can lead to diabetes developing. Steroid-induced diabetes is therefore a form of type 3e diabetes." [We have a couple of other members of this forum who also have steroid induced pancreatic damage and thus should be considered as T3e].

I have not seen T3e referred to in any NHS formal documentation and I think if someone with steroid induced D is today described as T3c rather than T3e that would still be a huge positive step forward. They are neither T1, nor T2. But they do have damage to their pancreas and that damage is imparing their insulin production. So to my mind a T3c diagnosis is not such an inaccurate compromise.

Sorry this is so lengthy!
 
Gallstones + acute pancreatitis +pseudo cysts in 2001 = six weeks in hospital, removal of gallbladder and drainage of pseudo cysts.
Acute pancreatitis +tumour =distal pancreatectomy ( removal of body and tail of pancreas) in 2007. The remaining third of my pancreas is now atrophied.
I didn’t become diabetic until 2010, started on insulin 2014. And I’m still here to tell the tale. Aged almost 64. Live a full life and don’t take anything for granted anymore. Look after myself and my diabetes as best as I can. Which so far seems to be working. I don’t dwell on it, it’s happened, it’s crap, but I’m alive.
 
My other half's mother had what we have always understood to be acute pancreatitis which required surgery in Rhodesia and she nearly died but survived until she was 98 years old never needing any medication. So it is a complete mystery, in those days people never asked medical questions of their doctor.
 
I was diagnosed with Pancreatic Neuroendocrine Cancer but this did not result in diabetes, even when the tumours had a growth spurt 8 years later my blood glucose remained ok..................it was only after they whipp(l)ed out the pancreas that I got to face the challenge of insulin dependency.
 
I think of Type 3c as quite different to Type 1. The only thing they share in common is a deficiency of insulin, but that’s about all. Type 1 is auto-immune. Type 3c isn’t and, moreover, if there’s pancreatic damage and partial or total removal of the pancreas, then Type 3c might have so-called brittle diabetes because their alpha cells are messed up too. In addition, they usually need Creon to replace the pancreatic enzymes.

Think I'm stuck between two then, type 1 who's also got some pancreas damage as don't produce enough digestive enzymes, therefore prescribed Creon for EPI.
 
Hi Austin.Type 3c is usually defined as essentially Type 1 so an insulin deficiency but caused as a result of pancreatic damage/ removal rather than as a result of an auto immune reason.
As the level of damage can vary it is possible for the Pancreas to be producing some insulin and therefore controlled by Metaformin rather than insulin but in time most people will need insulin.
I had a severe acute pancreatitis attack caused by gallstones which led to extensive necrosis of my exocrine cells and then led to my diabetes diagnosis 18 months after my AP attack.
Hi I hope this help 30 years ago I was an alcoholic and one day collapsed and woke in intensive care after many tests etc the specialist explained that one part of the pancreas destroyed the other half which produced the enzymes,I never had a other drink after that, I am 74 years old now it's a struggle to find local support and only now I have beautiful district nurses every morning to take blood sugars and give me insulin,I am unable to use my hands due to polymer arthritic disease( not sure of spelling) lol ..wishing you well and kind regards Gillxx
 
Hi I hope this help 30 years ago I was an alcoholic and one day collapsed and woke in intensive care after many tests etc the specialist explained that one part of the pancreas destroyed the other half which produced the enzymes,I never had a other drink after that, I am 74 years old now it's a struggle to find local support and only now I have beautiful district nurses every morning to take blood sugars and give me insulin,I am unable to use my hands due to polymer arthritic disease( not sure of spelling) lol ..wishing you well and kind regards Gillxx
Sorry to hear of your illness and your problems hopefully some of the forum can help and support you a bit , i can say you are not alone with troubles
 
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