Type 3c … very erratic BG …. Is this normal?

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I had my pancreas (and quite a few other bits) removed about 10 weeks ago. I was getting a lot of lows and the DSN approach was to tell me to lower the alarm from 4 to 3.8 or even lower. I found that didn't help but someone here suggested the other approach of setting it much higher (Martin or Wendal I suspect) and that allows you to see the downward trend and react in a more controlled manner. Previously I found I tended to overdo it and the numbers would rise in the other direction. Someone else suggested Skittles with about 5 to a Jelly Baby allowed even more finer control. I found if I had a digestive at a downward 5.2 it was a lot more even.

My main problem at the moment is high levels as I'm fairly determined to try live a normal life which means eating what I did before (well minus all the snacks, crisps and chocolate digestives) and it takes a while to work out how different foods with nominally the same carbs behave. Baked Beans caught me out as the high sugar content meant I should have taken my Rapid earlier than I did, Pizza with lots of fats caught me out as it took longer to get into my system and the Insulin had passed through when it did. That meant a low and then a high from the same meal. Tonight has been a bit of failure from a numbers point of view as the 'healthy' vegan pasty turned out to have twice as much carbs as a Cornish pasty with me assuming they're similar.

You don't say what you're eating but if 1 unit of rapid if causing lows do you need more carbs? I've been told I need to eat more to put lost weight back on and that I'm not snacking enough although snacking just feels too complicated at the moment.
Thank you for replying to me… & sharing very useful information. I’ve not been told to count carbs… just a regime of how many units to take plus correction doses for high reads… I’m convinced the novarapid is in my system really quickly & then it’s long gone by the time the food has been digested which last night took 4 hours to arrive & send my BG right up high for bedtime. I appreciate you saying about different foods behaving differently…I’m beginning to realise that myself. It’s good to know there are others in the same boat as me… wished we could all meet up it’s easier to talk than type! I’m trying to eat more or less like I did (but without little treats.. odd glass of wine & regular chocolate digestive biscuits) before the pancreas started to act up… I’ve lost over 2 stone & was really slim to start with so I would love to get to grips with it all & start to put weight back on…I am painfully thin right now. Good luck with your journey…& thank you again for trying to help me…kind regards Ron
 
Thank you for replying to me… & sharing very useful information. I’ve not been told to count carbs… just a regime of how many units to take plus correction doses for high reads… I’m convinced the novarapid is in my system really quickly & then it’s long gone by the time the food has been digested which last night took 4 hours to arrive & send my BG right up high for bedtime. I appreciate you saying about different foods behaving differently…I’m beginning to realise that myself. It’s good to know there are others in the same boat as me… wished we could all meet up it’s easier to talk than type! I’m trying to eat more or less like I did (but without little treats.. odd glass of wine & regular chocolate digestive biscuits) before the pancreas started to act up… I’ve lost over 2 stone & was really slim to start with so I would love to get to grips with it all & start to put weight back on…I am painfully thin right now. Good luck with your journey…& thank you again for trying to help me…kind regards Ron
Hi Ron,
Appreciate you have enough going on but would consider seeing a dietician at some point as post pancreatitis but pre diabetes I was in situation of losing weight which I could not afford to,
I know my circumstances were different but the dieticians advice simply transformed how I felt and marked a real turning point in my recovery journey.
 
Hi Ron,
Appreciate you have enough going on but would consider seeing a dietician at some point as post pancreatitis but pre diabetes I was in situation of losing weight which I could not afford to,
I know my circumstances were different but the dieticians advice simply transformed how I felt and marked a real turning point in my recovery journey.
And I too was well underweight after my Whipples.

The HPB dietician had moved on but I was lucky enough to come under the oversight of Macmillan during my chemo sessions and their dietician stepped up brilliantly; the County Diabetes dietician alongside my then DSN simply didn't have a clue and I had to be "smart" in getting the Macmillan advice to prevail over the D team dietician, with direction to my GP to prescribe the high nutrition Ensure drinks. Not pleasant to my palate but did the trick. I was convinced that I was essentially malabsorbing what I was able to eat, so my bolus doses were not properly matched to my meals and carb counting was not very relevant to the ratios I'd been given. The malabsorption problem took a long time to get recognised as a possibility and confirmed by a lead Gastroenterologist; he had to seek approval from somewhere to prescribe the necessary antibiotic and could only do that after eliminating all other possibilities. I can't remember the name of that abx; it is not, of course(!), recorded in my GP patient notes but I do have it somewhere and will need to go on a rummage.

Such things are all part of the perception that managing D is all guesswork, but much can be explained qualitatively. The hard part was, and still sometimes is for me, turning the "art" into "science" with usable quantitative figures.
 
Hi Ron,
Appreciate you have enough going on but would consider seeing a dietician at some point as post pancreatitis but pre diabetes I was in situation of losing weight which I could not afford to,
I know my circumstances were different but the dieticians advice simply transformed how I felt and marked a real turning point in my recovery journey.
Ahhh thank you for that…I have tried & tried to talk to a diabetes dietitian…but no luck so far…. Powys haven’t got one & Shrewsbury had one that has recently left.. I have spoken to a dietitian who kindly recommended Ensure drinks…(I don’t mind a couple of the flavours…but to be honest… I can’t seem to fit them in & I would need an extra 2 units of Novorapid & what I take now sends my BG in a downward spiral.. My problem is the insulin works too fast & food takes so long to be digested…. I definitely need those drinks & will endeavour to try & make it work to have the, Thank you for good sound advice….kind regards Ron
 
Doing well enough thanks. Would like to see my TIR improve,
Don't you just hate TIR, 3 days over 95% followed by 44%. Struggling to find a reason for both the high and low days.
 
And I too was well underweight after my Whipples.

The HPB dietician had moved on but I was lucky enough to come under the oversight of Macmillan during my chemo sessions and their dietician stepped up brilliantly; the County Diabetes dietician alongside my then DSN simply didn't have a clue and I had to be "smart" in getting the Macmillan advice to prevail over the D team dietician, with direction to my GP to prescribe the high nutrition Ensure drinks. Not pleasant to my palate but did the trick. I was convinced that I was essentially malabsorbing what I was able to eat, so my bolus doses were not properly matched to my meals and carb counting was not very relevant to the ratios I'd been given. The malabsorption problem took a long time to get recognised as a possibility and confirmed by a lead Gastroenterologist; he had to seek approval from somewhere to prescribe the necessary antibiotic and could only do that after eliminating all other possibilities. I can't remember the name of that abx; it is not, of course(!), recorded in my GP patient notes but I do have it somewhere and will need to go on a rummage.

Such things are all part of the perception that managing D is all guesswork, but much can be explained qualitatively. The hard part was, and still sometimes is for me, turning the "art" into "science" with usable quantitative figures.
Ahhh thank you for that…I have tried & tried to talk to a diabetes dietitian…but no luck so far…. Powys haven’t got one & Shrewsbury had one that has recently left.. I have spoken to a dietitian who kindly recommended Ensure drinks…(I don’t mind a couple of the flavours…but to be honest… I can’t seem to fit them in & I would need an extra 2 units of Novorapid & what I take now sends my BG in a downward spiral.. My problem is the insulin works too fast & food takes so long to be digested…. I definitely need those drinks & will endeavour to try & make it work to have the, Thank you for good sound advice….kind regards Ron

I’ve put the same reply for wendal as it’s covering the same subject….I’m not great at typing….much better at talking!!
 
Ahhh thank you for that…I have tried & tried to talk to a diabetes dietitian…but no luck so far…. Powys haven’t got one & Shrewsbury had one that has recently left.. I have spoken to a dietitian who kindly recommended Ensure drinks…(I don’t mind a couple of the flavours…but to be honest… I can’t seem to fit them in & I would need an extra 2 units of Novorapid & what I take now sends my BG in a downward spiral.. My problem is the insulin works too fast & food takes so long to be digested…. I definitely need those drinks & will endeavour to try & make it work to have the, Thank you for good sound advice….kind regards Ron

I’ve put the same reply for wendal as it’s covering the same subject….I’m not great at typing….much better at talking!!
Would this be helpful to you.
 
Thank you…..
I’m really lucky to have a DSN phoning me every week…but I don’t think they have ever dealt with someone like me with no pancreas…. I appreciate your help…kind regards Ron
 
@Ronnie5cakes, I need to focus a bit more on how you might resolve the bolus timing problem. Quite often NovoRapid is jokingly referred to as Novo-not so-Rapid and the timing problem is the other way around with hefty post meal spikes before the bolus starts working.

One aspect is that our natural insulin resistance changes at different times of the day as well as changing depending on what our existing BG is at the time of injecting. So, for example my insulin resistance is stronger at the start of the day and I generally need to allow longer prebolus times for the NovoRapid to start working; by evening time it is as if my body has warmed up and any NovoRapid needs much less prebolus time, often I'll bolus and eat straightaway. Similarly if my BG is around 5 as I prebolus the leadctime needed is very much less than if I'm closet to 10.

What, typically, is your starting BG from your Libre or meter when you take your breakfast bolus? And have you already been up and about fir a while before that first bolus?

A different thought is this because your basal is too strong and that is causing your BG to drop trending you towards hypo, because you already have too much insulin on board? Have I mentioned that your body uses any insulin without discrimination? It does not know that insulin has cleverly been engineered to provideslow background release or faster release. If there's insulin present (insulin on board = iob) then that will be used to hoover up surplus glucose!

Actually thinking about this more logically, if these rapid drops in BG occur then the fundamental answer must be there is insulin already on board. Since you had a TP it must be from external sources and probably is your basal causing these drops, before NR can get underway. I can't remember what your basal is? But basal testing ought to be pursued; these BG drops are effectively (unwittingly) creating a partial basal test. When you next speak with a DSN ask about this and also consider asking if you might benefit from going onto the very long lasting (and very even release) basal of Degludec (known as Tresiba).

Tresiba lasts nominally 40 hrs so today's dose is topping up yesterday's dose. The nature of its release profile means there is a lot of flexibility in the timing of Tresiba doses. A nominal daily dose time of 8am can be flexed to be at 5am or 11am without noticeable change in how it behaves over the nominal 40 hrs. This longevity makes people call it inflexible, mainly because a dose change takes effect tomorrow or even day 3; but that inflexibility is also its strength: once the Tresiba dose is right it becomes very dependable AND all other BG management comes from bolus for food and/or corrections, or exercise or even carb variation at the time of eating.

Something to consider putting to your DSN. Otherwise the theory is that not only could your bolus be adrift but also your basal or even both - when the MDI regime isn't working well for you. That means more variables to compute. My first DSN was in close discussion with me and suggested changes of bolus and /or basal; but these were never explained why. So I learnt little. Once I broke away from her I tried to become self taught and used my trial and learning process. Particularly after I changed to Trssiba from 2x daily Levermir and realised that Tresiba was great for my needs. Complete chance! I just wanted one less daily injection.

I agree it is easier sometimes to be face to face and talk, with less writing. But I'm a fair way from Powys or even Shrewsbury. All for just now; I suspect some of the above could be repetition by me, but never mind. Roland
 
Thank you for replying to me… & sharing very useful information. I’ve not been told to count carbs… just a regime of how many units to take plus correction doses for high reads… I’m convinced the novarapid is in my system really quickly & then it’s long gone by the time the food has been digested which last night took 4 hours to arrive & send my BG right up high for bedtime. I appreciate you saying about different foods behaving differently…I’m beginning to realise that myself. It’s good to know there are others in the same boat as me… wished we could all meet up it’s easier to talk than type! I’m trying to eat more or less like I did (but without little treats.. odd glass of wine & regular chocolate digestive biscuits) before the pancreas started to act up… I’ve lost over 2 stone & was really slim to start with so I would love to get to grips with it all & start to put weight back on…I am painfully thin right now. Good luck with your journey…& thank you again for trying to help me…kind regards Ron
No one mentioned carbs to me either. I left hospital with a regime based on the drips I was on at a time. I was barely eating and hardly moving. My diet was mainly morphine for a while. Not surprisingly once I started to get better the numbers didn't really add up. As I continue to recover I'm expecting the amount of insulin to keep changing and when I take it. I also think no one is too worried about the numbers whilst you're in that recovery period if you avoid extreme highs and lows. Have you tried taking the novarapid after your meal or splitting it? I also find if I'm active then my BG drops on a temporary basis similarly as I'm less active after my evening meal I need more insulin.

I've got a pallet of ensure which I'm not quite sure what to do with now. As you say once you can eat normally its a lot of carbs to fit in. Hopefully you got it on prescription? Have you asked your GP about multi vitamins and minerals on prescription? And your Creon will also impact your food absorption just in case you've changed the amount you take. I've gone from 3 to 5 with a meal which is another variable.
 
No one mentioned carbs to me either. I left hospital with a regime based on the drips I was on at a time. I was barely eating and hardly moving. My diet was mainly morphine for a while. Not surprisingly once I started to get better the numbers didn't really add up. As I continue to recover I'm expecting the amount of insulin to keep changing and when I take it. I also think no one is too worried about the numbers whilst you're in that recovery period if you avoid extreme highs and lows. Have you tried taking the novarapid after your meal or splitting it? I also find if I'm active then my BG drops on a temporary basis similarly as I'm less active after my evening meal I need more insulin.

I've got a pallet of ensure which I'm not quite sure what to do with now. As you say once you can eat normally its a lot of carbs to fit in. Hopefully you got it on prescription? Have you asked your GP about multi vitamins and minerals on prescription? And your Creon will also impact your food absorption just in case you've changed the amount you take. I've gone from 3 to 5 with a meal which is another variable.
Thank you so much for replying to me…. We are exactly in the same boat! I shall mention some of these things to the DSN & see if I can get mine a bit more fine tuned.. How long ago was your surgery?
 
@Ronnie5cakes, I need to focus a bit more on how you might resolve the bolus timing problem. Quite often NovoRapid is jokingly referred to as Novo-not so-Rapid and the timing problem is the other way around with hefty post meal spikes before the bolus starts working.

One aspect is that our natural insulin resistance changes at different times of the day as well as changing depending on what our existing BG is at the time of injecting. So, for example my insulin resistance is stronger at the start of the day and I generally need to allow longer prebolus times for the NovoRapid to start working; by evening time it is as if my body has warmed up and any NovoRapid needs much less prebolus time, often I'll bolus and eat straightaway. Similarly if my BG is around 5 as I prebolus the leadctime needed is very much less than if I'm closet to 10.

What, typically, is your starting BG from your Libre or meter when you take your breakfast bolus? And have you already been up and about fir a while before that first bolus?

A different thought is this because your basal is too strong and that is causing your BG to drop trending you towards hypo, because you already have too much insulin on board? Have I mentioned that your body uses any insulin without discrimination? It does not know that insulin has cleverly been engineered to provideslow background release or faster release. If there's insulin present (insulin on board = iob) then that will be used to hoover up surplus glucose!

Actually thinking about this more logically, if these rapid drops in BG occur then the fundamental answer must be there is insulin already on board. Since you had a TP it must be from external sources and probably is your basal causing these drops, before NR can get underway. I can't remember what your basal is? But basal testing ought to be pursued; these BG drops are effectively (unwittingly) creating a partial basal test. When you next speak with a DSN ask about this and also consider asking if you might benefit from going onto the very long lasting (and very even release) basal of Degludec (known as Tresiba).

Tresiba lasts nominally 40 hrs so today's dose is topping up yesterday's dose. The nature of its release profile means there is a lot of flexibility in the timing of Tresiba doses. A nominal daily dose time of 8am can be flexed to be at 5am or 11am without noticeable change in how it behaves over the nominal 40 hrs. This longevity makes people call it inflexible, mainly because a dose change takes effect tomorrow or even day 3; but that inflexibility is also its strength: once the Tresiba dose is right it becomes very dependable AND all other BG management comes from bolus for food and/or corrections, or exercise or even carb variation at the time of eating.

Something to consider putting to your DSN. Otherwise the theory is that not only could your bolus be adrift but also your basal or even both - when the MDI regime isn't working well for you. That means more variables to compute. My first DSN was in close discussion with me and suggested changes of bolus and /or basal; but these were never explained why. So I learnt little. Once I broke away from her I tried to become self taught and used my trial and learning process. Particularly after I changed to Trssiba from 2x daily Levermir and realised that Tresiba was great for my needs. Complete chance! I just wanted one less daily injection.

I agree it is easier sometimes to be face to face and talk, with less writing. But I'm a fair way from Powys or even Shrewsbury. All for just now; I suspect some of the above could be repetition by me, but never mind. Roland
Thank you Roland for replying….you have given me so much info there! No one tells you these things!! My waking read is an average BG is 9 & then at breakfast time it will be about 12 (2.5 hours) later, when I have watched news on tv & had a shower & sorted the dogs out with their breakfast. I have a lot of carbs for breakfast & take 3 units of Novorapid (plus correction if necessary)..My lunchtime base dose is 2 & evening meal is 1. No one has told me to count carbs…& even when I do, I find different foods behave so differently…. Plus it gets me every time how a small amount of walking can make the reads drop so quickly & suddenly. I really appreciate you are trying to help me & will mention these things to the DSN when she phones…… kind regards Ron
 
Thank you…..
I’m really lucky to have a DSN phoning me every week…but I don’t think they have ever dealt with someone like me with no pancreas…. I appreciate your help…kind regards Ron
Ronnie - its not good that you find yourself in exactly the same position as I was is in 2010. When I had my TP that was supposed to be the worst case option, very unlikely....until the night before the operation. Hadn't considered a life with insulin dependency and didn't know any T1 diabetics meaning it was a total new life. It sounds like you are going through the same type of process I went through which, whilst frustrating and scary, I think is essential to enable you to build your knowledge going forward. Too much information now will confuse and potentially lead to bad habits going forward. Stick with the slow steps you will feel the benefit in the future of the frustration and mistakes you make now.
 
Excellent advice from @martindt1606. Particularly about too much info now can confuse and lead to bad habits. Thus slow steps needed to feel the beneficial foundation for the future.

However, Ronnie, I (like you and Martin) went through that frustration of inadequate guidance and bad assistance, which I attributed to Covid overwhelming my DSN's workload. I subsequently found she was a delightful person but well adrift on my needs after a TP; eventually she became a major liability for me by endorsing, behind my back, my GP's decision to ration my test srips to 4 x daily. After I politely questioned the competence of both my GP and my DSN and got that sorted I knew I had to take ownership of my D if things were ever going to improve.

Also, like you Ronnie I had turned 70, previously enjoyed good health and was outwardly fit and healthy. I just was not ready to be treated like a geriatric, confined to my house by not just D, but by unsatisfactory bowel and bladder control; even time in my garden was challenging. Getting someone willing to address the wider picture needed me to be politely forceful, but also needed some understanding by me of how the NHS worked, how the culture of Specialists thriving in their narrow necked silos could be encouraged to think holistically (and for about a year I came under 6 Specialists in 2 Counties). Ronnie, unlike yourself, I lived within reach of appropriate Specialists at the top of their game and within my reach geographically: my challenge was getting into their Clinics with a GP bunkered down behind a locked door unwilling to see anyone face to face and difficult to even get an email dialogue going about how to get appropriate referrals to the right people.

So YES baby steps and YES be very alert to acquiring a surfeit of information that can distract and dilute how you can make any headway.

However, Ronnie, accepting that only now have you really grasped the need to carb count and now its time to move on from that past frustration: you do now know and BERTIE on line can help with the training for that. So may I suggest this must be one of your vital Baby Steps. Until you've started the counting process, you can't verify if your counts are sensible and your presumed insulin to carbs ratios ar correct. There is some complexity to all of that, but daunting as it might feel, it is doable and there is plenty of help both on this Forum and I used Gary Scheiner's book Think Like a Pancreas as my start point for learning. I refined this after BERTIE and from comments within the Forum.

Note Scheiner early on makes the point that a main meal needs to be at least 30gms of carbs to deflect the body's consequent conversion of proteins and fats into blood glucose. This means at least some bolus for 30 gms carbs, but probably factored down to reflect recent exercise/ activity. 3 x meals at 30 gms carbs is still very much in the low carb world; my typical main meal is 50+, unless I have specifically joined a low carb family meal. But equally my early meals in excess of 100 gms carbs are a thing of the past, for various reasons.

Acquiring a surfeit of useful info is tricky to manage. It is natural to read about something you didn't previously know and to want to hoover that up to store for future use. It is also natural for us well-intentioned Forum members to want to share whatever we think may help you. I can be very guilty of that.

The next Baby step I think that is essential for you is to get your basal dose confirmed as correct first. Wrong basal dose and your bolus is chasing a moving target. Please remind me are you on Lantus? One experiment you could make is to repeat the same breakfast 3 days running and on the 3rd day post bolus by only when you areseeing a clear rise. Clarify if your BG is dropping after that meal because of basal rather than bolus. Normal basal testing processes are to divide the day into 3 bits and fast through 1/3 of a day to see how your basal is doing through those 8 hrs. It means you need 3 days to do this and you can only start an 8 hr fast when your IoB from any bolus has fully dissipated. This process of basal testing is also more usually done by T1s who might still be creating some home grown insulin; but I don't see why it won't work for us with our TPs and nothing home grown.

Final Baby Step, this is very contentious, but try and establish if YOUR DSN has experience of post whipple and TP patients. I assumed my former DSN understood my difficulties, but I was wrong. I don't want to undermine your working relationship with her. But by asking her to explain the rationale for current or future decisions might help sort out what she really understands. My personal hobby horse would be to establish why you aren't on the basal of Tresiba right now. Get that variable fixed and the maths/ algebra /science becomes a little easier. Your age and natural lack of growth hormones lends itself to a very dependable long acting basal. No basal requirement is constant through any 24 hr period. Having a basal that is optimised for the period from bedtime to breakfast can provide safe steady nights. Then the day is managed by food, bolus and activity - regardless of what the ultra long Tresiba basal is bringing to the daytime party.

Meanwhile Ronnie, you and I agree that a face to face would be less demanding than endless writing. An interim solution would be for you to show us 3 x screenshots from your Libre Log book reports of the next 3 days. We will need to know precisely when you took both basal and bolus as well as when you ate a main meal or snack that could alter your daily graph. If you were unduly active ( eg those short walks) when and for roughly how long. From those 3 daily graphs some detective work can be done - and there are some on the Forum who are brilliant that analysis stuff (I'm OK, but know others who are sharper than me in this).

Possibly better to start a new thread for these screenshots seeking the Sherlock Holmes characters and hope we keep our observations focused to just that data; we might not! Digression is a strong point by us!
 
Excellent advice from @martindt1606. Particularly about too much info now can confuse and lead to bad habits. Thus slow steps needed to feel the beneficial foundation for the future.

However, Ronnie, I (like you and Martin) went through that frustration of inadequate guidance and bad assistance, which I attributed to Covid overwhelming my DSN's workload. I subsequently found she was a delightful person but well adrift on my needs after a TP; eventually she became a major liability for me by endorsing, behind my back, my GP's decision to ration my test srips to 4 x daily. After I politely questioned the competence of both my GP and my DSN and got that sorted I knew I had to take ownership of my D if things were ever going to improve.

Also, like you Ronnie I had turned 70, previously enjoyed good health and was outwardly fit and healthy. I just was not ready to be treated like a geriatric, confined to my house by not just D, but by unsatisfactory bowel and bladder control; even time in my garden was challenging. Getting someone willing to address the wider picture needed me to be politely forceful, but also needed some understanding by me of how the NHS worked, how the culture of Specialists thriving in their narrow necked silos could be encouraged to think holistically (and for about a year I came under 6 Specialists in 2 Counties). Ronnie, unlike yourself, I lived within reach of appropriate Specialists at the top of their game and within my reach geographically: my challenge was getting into their Clinics with a GP bunkered down behind a locked door unwilling to see anyone face to face and difficult to even get an email dialogue going about how to get appropriate referrals to the right people.

So YES baby steps and YES be very alert to acquiring a surfeit of information that can distract and dilute how you can make any headway.

However, Ronnie, accepting that only now have you really grasped the need to carb count and now its time to move on from that past frustration: you do now know and BERTIE on line can help with the training for that. So may I suggest this must be one of your vital Baby Steps. Until you've started the counting process, you can't verify if your counts are sensible and your presumed insulin to carbs ratios ar correct. There is some complexity to all of that, but daunting as it might feel, it is doable and there is plenty of help both on this Forum and I used Gary Scheiner's book Think Like a Pancreas as my start point for learning. I refined this after BERTIE and from comments within the Forum.

Note Scheiner early on makes the point that a main meal needs to be at least 30gms of carbs to deflect the body's consequent conversion of proteins and fats into blood glucose. This means at least some bolus for 30 gms carbs, but probably factored down to reflect recent exercise/ activity. 3 x meals at 30 gms carbs is still very much in the low carb world; my typical main meal is 50+, unless I have specifically joined a low carb family meal. But equally my early meals in excess of 100 gms carbs are a thing of the past, for various reasons.

Acquiring a surfeit of useful info is tricky to manage. It is natural to read about something you didn't previously know and to want to hoover that up to store for future use. It is also natural for us well-intentioned Forum members to want to share whatever we think may help you. I can be very guilty of that.

The next Baby step I think that is essential for you is to get your basal dose confirmed as correct first. Wrong basal dose and your bolus is chasing a moving target. Please remind me are you on Lantus? One experiment you could make is to repeat the same breakfast 3 days running and on the 3rd day post bolus by only when you areseeing a clear rise. Clarify if your BG is dropping after that meal because of basal rather than bolus. Normal basal testing processes are to divide the day into 3 bits and fast through 1/3 of a day to see how your basal is doing through those 8 hrs. It means you need 3 days to do this and you can only start an 8 hr fast when your IoB from any bolus has fully dissipated. This process of basal testing is also more usually done by T1s who might still be creating some home grown insulin; but I don't see why it won't work for us with our TPs and nothing home grown.

Final Baby Step, this is very contentious, but try and establish if YOUR DSN has experience of post whipple and TP patients. I assumed my former DSN understood my difficulties, but I was wrong. I don't want to undermine your working relationship with her. But by asking her to explain the rationale for current or future decisions might help sort out what she really understands. My personal hobby horse would be to establish why you aren't on the basal of Tresiba right now. Get that variable fixed and the maths/ algebra /science becomes a little easier. Your age and natural lack of growth hormones lends itself to a very dependable long acting basal. No basal requirement is constant through any 24 hr period. Having a basal that is optimised for the period from bedtime to breakfast can provide safe steady nights. Then the day is managed by food, bolus and activity - regardless of what the ultra long Tresiba basal is bringing to the daytime party.

Meanwhile Ronnie, you and I agree that a face to face would be less demanding than endless writing. An interim solution would be for you to show us 3 x screenshots from your Libre Log book reports of the next 3 days. We will need to know precisely when you took both basal and bolus as well as when you ate a main meal or snack that could alter your daily graph. If you were unduly active ( eg those short walks) when and for roughly how long. From those 3 daily graphs some detective work can be done - and there are some on the Forum who are brilliant that analysis stuff (I'm OK, but know others who are sharper than me in this).

Possibly better to start a new thread for these screenshots seeking the Sherlock Holmes characters and hope we keep our observations focused to just that data; we might not! Digression is a strong point by us!
Thank you so much for all that brilliant info… I’m taking it onboard as best I can!! I know the DSN is not experienced in in this type of situation…. She is doing her best (down the phone) but I’m not sure she takes onboard what the graphs show… I’m on Lantus 13 units per day & Novorapid 3 units b’fast 2 units lunch 1 unit evening meal (all plus corrections as necessary…) l’ll do the screenshots in a few days from logbook & see what everyone thinks…. Thank you again for trying to help…kind regards Ron..
 
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