Type 2 and insulin resistance - what I don't understand is...

[Callista]

I have to say I find it somewhat bizarre that given that Diabetes represents an inability of the body to regulate the correct balance between carbohydrate (starch and sugar) intake, and subsequent usage and storage by the body, that medics didn't associate carb intake with deleterious BG levels!

ie, if the problem is 'high BG' then surely the solution is 'eat less of the foods that cause high BG levels' (ie, mainly and most quickly, carbs!

Maybe it's only because in recent years there has been a change in attitude about the reversibility of pre-DB and T2, that thing are now changing.

But not advising people to cut back on the very food that is going to most translate into higher-than-wanted BG levels just makes no sense!!!

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I have to say I find it somewhat bizarre that given that Diabetes represents an inability of the body to regulate the correct balance between carbohydrate (starch and sugar) intake, and subsequent usage and storage by the body, that medics didn't associate carb intake with deleterious BG levels!

ie, if the problem is 'high BG' then surely the solution is 'eat less of the foods that cause high BG levels' (ie, mainly and most quickly, carbs!

Maybe it's only because in recent years there has been a change in attitude about the reversibility of pre-DB and T2, that thing are now changing.

But not advising people to cut back on the very food that is going to most translate into higher-than-wanted BG levels just makes no sense!!!

That wouldn't have been my answer though.

I failed because I was morbidly obese.
Replacing carbs with fats wouldn't have changed that for me.
I agree I could have tried to artificially regulate my own hba1c, but when I lost the internal fat, it turned out I could regulate the balance normally anyway.

And the loss of weight had many other health benefits.

 

[bulkbiker]

I was morbidly obese weighing in at 146 kg when diagnosed.

I cut carbs drastically lost weight and put T2 into remission whilst eating well and not deliberately cutting back on food amounts. Still there 7 years later.

Dietary fats per se don't make you fat .. de novo lipogenesis is caused by a excess of carbs. In fact dietary fats assist the body in going into "fat for fuel" mode where excess weight is used as fuel rather than glucose, providing carbs have been cut enough.

Oddly "artificially regulating my HbA1c" is what led to the weight loss .. remission came before the majority of my weight loss in fact.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I was morbidly obese weighing in at 146 kg when diagnosed.

I cut carbs drastically lost weight and put T2 into remission whilst eating well and not deliberately cutting back on food amounts. Still there 7 years later.

Dietary fats per se don't make you fat .. de novo lipogenesis is caused by a excess of carbs. In fact dietary fats assist the body in going into "fat for fuel" mode where excess weight is used as fuel rather than glucose, providing carbs have been cut enough.

Oddly "artificially regulating my HbA1c" is what led to the weight loss .. remission came before the majority of my weight loss in fact.

Yes, that was what I used to get told, especially on the "red" site.
You can eat all you want to of fats and proteins, no calorie counting, and weight will always decrease if you are overweight and you keep the carbs low?

However, no one told me, if only carbs make you fat, and eating fat helps the body burn it's own fat, how to stop losing weight on a keto diet?
Can you explain that mechanism to me please, as who knows, one day I might need it, as said before.

 

[harbottle]

Yes, that was what I used to get told, especially on the "red" site.
You can eat all you want to of fats and proteins, no calorie counting, and weight will always decrease if you are overweight and you keep the carbs low?

However, no one told me, if only carbs make you fat, and eating fat helps the body burn it's own fat, how to stop losing weight on a keto diet?
Can you explain that mechanism to me please, as who knows, one day I might need it, as said before.

You can eat all the fat you want and never put weight? They actually believe that? Wow.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

You can eat all the fat you want and never put weight? They actually believe that? Wow.

I was told it many times.
Eat as much as you want, never feel hungry, just eat until you are satiated.
And snack in between on "fat bombs".
"Your body will lose as much weight as it needs to, then it'll stop losing" was the usual response to my question.
I got morbidly obese by eating as much as I wanted to, so while simply swapping the carbs for fat and protein may indeed be a very attractive solution, with no pain, I actually needed to review my entire relationship with food, I realised I actually needed to learn restraint, and I certainly wasn't going to trust my body to decide when the weight loss stopped either!

 

[bulkbiker]

However, no one told me, if only carbs make you fat, and eating fat helps the body burn it's own fat, how to stop losing weight on a keto diet?

Your body, once normal response to food is restored, will be aware of what it needs.
Similar I guess to the way you didn't immediately regain all the weight you lost though your Newcastle Diet strategy once you went back to eating normally?

 

[bulkbiker]

You can eat all the fat you want and never put weight? They actually believe that? Wow.

Try it.. you might be amazed at how little you want to eat.. you do have to allow the body to self regulate so it's not "all the fat you want" more like all the fat you need.
And of course you need to become fat adapted first by reducing carbs to a minimum, a mix of dietary fats and carbs would not help achieve that. Probably around 20g of carbs per day max.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Try it.. you might be amazed at how little you want to eat.. you do have to allow the body to self regulate so it's not "all the fat you want" more like all the fat you need.
And of course you need to become fat adapted first by reducing carbs to a minimum, a mix of dietary fats and carbs would not help achieve that. Probably around 20g of carbs per day max.

I didn't need to want to eat, that was my problem.

 

[Dragonheart]

I didn't need to want to eat, that was my problem.

I was told it many times.
Eat as much as you want, never feel hungry, just eat until you are satiated.
And snack in between on "fat bombs".
"Your body will lose as much weight as it needs to, then it'll stop losing" was the usual response to my question.
I got morbidly obese by eating as much as I wanted to, so while simply swapping the carbs for fat and protein may indeed be a very attractive solution, with no pain, I actually needed to review my entire relationship with food, I realised I actually needed to learn restraint, and I certainly wasn't going to trust my body to decide when the weight loss stopped either!

However, no one told me, if only carbs make you fat, and eating fat helps the body burn it's own fat, how to stop losing weight on a keto diet?
Can you explain that mechanism to me please, as who knows, one day I might need it, as said before.

You are misinterpreting what is said.

Eating til satiated for sure. And when that food comes from highly nutritious sources that your body is able to deal with then you stop eating when you need to. It’s shocking to many that actually try it when for the first time ever they aren’t hungry or seeking more food. Eating foods we cannot process (carbs) means you keep eating and eating and eating trying to seek what you cannot find. And it’s not that only carbs will make you fat but that if you can’t deal with carbs (because you are type 2) then they make you fat much more easily than if you aren’t. And fat as a food is much much harder to over eat on its own than carbs are.

When you’ve got blood glucose under control and you’ve reached an optimal weight then it’s about finding the right balance for maintenance. And no it doesn’t happen by magic for everyone. There’s a well known saying of carbs are a limit, protein a goal and fat a lever. We need to protect our muscles from savaging for energy via protein so we must eat enough. If we continue to limit carbs and don’t want to lose weight then you must increase either or both fats and proteins. It’s really that simple.

 

[Dragonheart]

Replacing carbs with fats wouldn't have changed that for me.

Did you try it? How do you know what would have happened?

 

[Deleted member 21371]

You are misinterpreting what is said.

Eating til satiated for sure. And when that food comes from highly nutritious sources that your body is able to deal with then you stop eating when you need to. It’s shocking to many that actually try it when for the first time ever they aren’t hungry or seeking more food. Eating foods we cannot process (carbs) means you keep eating and eating and eating trying to seek what you cannot find. And it’s not that only carbs will make you fat but that if you can’t deal with carbs (because you are type 2) then they make you fat much more easily than if you aren’t. And fat as a food is much much harder to over eat on its own than carbs are.

When you’ve got blood glucose under control and you’ve reached an optimal weight then it’s about finding the right balance for maintenance. And no it doesn’t happen by magic for everyone. There’s a well known saying of carbs are a limit, protein a goal and fat a lever. We need to protect our muscles from savaging for energy via protein so we must eat enough. If we continue to limit carbs and don’t want to lose weight then you must increase either or both fats and proteins. It’s really that simple.

I can process carbs, everyone can, its utter nonsense to say otherwise.
No idea what your "well known saying is"
"Fat makes you fat" was mine.

 

[Dragonheart]

I can process carbs, everyone can, its utter nonsense to say otherwise.
No idea what your "well known saying is"
"Fat makes you fat" was mine.

So you think type 2 diabetics don’t have an issue with carbs? And process them the same as non diabetics do? How do you explain the different reactions in blood and insulin responses then?

I perhaps should have added the saying is well known in low carb and keto circles, to explain how the method works.

Body fat and dietary fat are not the same thing and using the same word is misleading imo. When I eat real unprocessed or unadulterated fats at a decent quantity that suits me I do just fine. Not to mention the fat is essential for immunity, hormones, vitamins, my brain and a zillion other things. When I eat carbs at any amount above minimal I gain weight, raise glucose, raise triglycerides and lower Hdl and feel awful in all sorts of other ways. I can do just fine without carbs metabolically, though a small number make life easier. So my response would be carbs make me fat

You asked how to maintain weight on keto. I answered. I’m not so sure you wanted to listen to an answer though. Oddly you are sort of right though. If you want to gain weight on keto you eat more fat (or protein) than you did when you were losing weight on it. And that’s all that happens. You stop losing. Adding more carbs would mean it’s no longer keto but would also make me fat. Downside to that option is worse bgl and all the repercussions of that.

 

[Callista]

I think one of the issues with eating more fat is that for many (like me!), what I like most is 'sweet fat' - in other words, sugared cream (!). The alternative is 'salt fat' eaten with main meals, rather than as 'puddings' (which is the sweet-fat option).

The moment you cut out sugars, then you also cut out the 'sweet fat' as well.

So, probably, your overal fat intake declines (unless you up the salty fat - even MORE butter on those green beans!!!!)


I suppose it works with starch carbs as well - we either eat 'salty starch carbs' (pasta/rice/potatoes) as part of our 'main course', or we eat 'sweet starch carbs' (cakes, marmalade on toast, breakfast cereal etc) which only compounds our overall carb intake. I would surmise that if one must eat starch carbs, then taking the 'salty' option (which of often includes butter!) would be a tad less bad than the sweet option (puddings!)

 

[bulkbiker]

I suppose it works with starch carbs as well - we either eat 'salty starch carbs' (pasta/rice/potatoes) as part of our 'main course', or we eat 'sweet starch carbs' (cakes, marmalade on toast, breakfast cereal etc) which only compounds our overall carb intake. I would surmise that if one must eat starch carbs, then taking the 'salty' option (which of often includes butter!) would be a tad less bad than the sweet option (puddings!)

But they're all carbs in the end which turn to glucose once ingested...
Better to have as few carbs as possible (your body's need for carbs is in fact zero) and go from there.
That was the logical approach I followed with pretty good long term results.

 

[Callista]

Oh yes indeed, but if you go the 'sweet starch carbs' option you get the double whammy of the starch carbs AND the sugar carbs!!!!

 

[42istheanswer]

Oh yes indeed, but if you go the 'sweet starch carbs' option you get the double whammy of the starch carbs AND the sugar carbs!!!!

It depends entirely on how many carbs there are in total. Foods can be low in sugar but have much higher carbs than some sweet treats.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

It depends entirely on how many carbs there are in total. Foods can be low in sugar but have much higher carbs than some sweet treats.

I found the type of carb made the main difference to me.
I long, slowly digested carb had minimal impact on my BG, so quantity was mostly irrelevant.
A rapid hit like sugar gave me a spike.
I soon learnt the difference in "good" carbs and "bad" carbs,

 

[Leadinglights]

It depends entirely on how many carbs there are in total. Foods can be low in sugar but have much higher carbs than some sweet treats.

I quote my example of breakfast cereal Puffed Wheat 0.6g sugar per 100g but a whopping 69.6g total carbs per 100g.
People looking at the 'as sugars' would think it fine but not really.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I quote my example of breakfast cereal Puffed Wheat 0.6g sugar per 100g but a whopping 69.6g total carbs per 100g.
People looking at the 'as sugars' would think it fine but not really.

It depends.
Low GI, and a rise to 8, no issue for me.
I could eat 20g of a high GI and rise to 10 in the day, so that was something to avoid back then.