Reversing Diabetes

[Lynne888]

I’m only a month into trying to put my diabetes into reverse. My numbers are always between about 5.4 - 7.4. I’m assuming it has to be much lower if it’s reversed. Can I ask those who have managed to do it what their numbers were like? My readings never go higher than sevens regardless of what I eat and I’ve lost a stone (I need to lose far more). I’ve got two months before I see my GP again but I do feel worried that if I haven’t reversed it in that time she will put me on insulin. She gave me metformin which I haven’t taken as my hba1c was only 50 and after discussing it on this forum I felt it was best to try to alter things without medication initially. I’ve taken everything on board what people suggested. I have dark chocolate now (a few squares) and I eat around 100 carbs a day sometimes less. BG readings are much the same as when I started so it’s hard to know if I’m doing enough. Did anyone find their readings still higher but hba1c lower when they were checked or is that wishful thinking?!

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Below 8 two hours after eating is normal.

 

[Lynne888]

Below 8 two hours after eating is normal.

It's been that since I was diagnosed though! It's never gone over 8 (maybe once to 8.1)

 

[Eddy Edson]

The numbers you quote are pretty "normal".

See this post: https://forum.diabetes.org.uk/boards/threads/bg-profiles-in-healthy-non-diabetics.99521/ for some data on "normal" BG levels, from a widely-cited 2019 study.

A waking/fasting read of <= 5.4 mmol/l is typically considered "normal", and almost all "normal" people spend some time during the day above 7.8 mmol/l.

It would be amazing if anybody recommended insulin for you, if the numbers you quote are a good representation of your BG levels.

FWIW, I reversed my T2D 3 1/2 years+ ago, via weight loss. My waking read is always somewhere in the 4.2 - 4.8 mmol/l range. I often go above 7.8 mmol/l briefly after eating, like most people, and don't care if I briefly go 9+, again like most people do from time to time. My HbA1c has been rock-steady at 35 mmol/mol for years.


These days I'm not concerned with how many carbs I eat, rather with other CV-healthy dietary measures, which are generally far more important. (Sharply limit saturated fats, refined carbs, sodium; eat lots of fibre, unsaturated fats, fruit, veggies.)

I also don't care about the Internet-quality advice you see to limit post-eating BG increases to 2-3 mmol/l. This is something that people say because people say it, if you know what I mean,but I have never seen any study supporting it, clinically. At best it's a really rough rule of thumb, but probably of limited use even for that.

More useful as rough rules of thumb are to try to keep post eating peak levels at no more than say 10 mmol/l, and no more than say ~8.5 mmol/l two hours after eating. Then maybe work down a bit further, but no need to stress about it.

Good luck!

 

[Deleted member 21371]

It's been that since I was diagnosed though! It's never gone over 8 (maybe once to 8.1)

Has your fasting reading changed?

 

[Lynne888]

Has your fasting reading changed?

No not really. It’s usually around 6.8 in the morning and goes up into the sevens half an hour later

 

[Lynne888]

The numbers you quote are pretty "normal".

See this post: https://forum.diabetes.org.uk/boards/threads/bg-profiles-in-healthy-non-diabetics.99521/ for some data on "normal" BG levels, from a widely-cited 2019 study.

A waking/fasting read of <= 5.4 mmol/l is typically considered "normal", and almost all "normal" people spend some time during the day above 7.8 mmol/l.

It would be amazing if anybody recommended insulin for you, if the numbers you quote are a good representation of your BG levels.

FWIW, I reversed my T2D 3 1/2 years+ ago, via weight loss. My waking read is always somewhere in the 4.2 - 4.8 mmol/l range. I often go above 7.8 mmol/l briefly after eating, like most people, and don't care if I briefly go 9+, again like most people do from time to time. My HbA1c has been rock-steady at 35 mmol/mol for years.


These days I'm not concerned with how many carbs I eat, rather with other CV-healthy dietary measures, which are generally far more important. (Sharply limit saturated fats, refined carbs, sodium; eat lots of fibre, unsaturated fats, fruit, veggies.)

I also don't care about the Internet-quality advice you see to limit post-eating BG increases to 2-3 mmol/l. This is something that people say because people say it, if you know what I mean,but I have never seen any study supporting it, clinically. At best it's a really rough rule of thumb, but probably of limited use even for that.

More useful as rough rules of thumb are to try to keep post eating peak levels at no more than say 10 mmol/l, and no more than say ~8.5 mmol/l two hours after eating. Then maybe work down a bit further, but no need to stress about it.

Good luck!

Thanks Eddy. The morning readings are always in the sixes… no change really and that goes up to sevens usually within an hour of getting up. Never had a waking reading in the fours. I’ve never had readings of 9 or 10 at any time. I don’t think there’s any change to my readings since diagnosis. My GP will do what she likes. I told her I didn’t want metformin and I’d try to reverse it but she was having none of it. What she says goes. There’s no discussion (can’t change, quite rural, only doctor).

 

[Eddy Edson]

Thanks Eddy. The morning readings are always in the sixes… no change really and that goes up to sevens usually within an hour of getting up. Never had a waking reading in the fours. I’ve never had readings of 9 or 10 at any time. I don’t think there’s any change to my readings since diagnosis. My GP will do what she likes. I told her I didn’t want metformin and I’d try to reverse it but she was having none of it. What she says goes. There’s no discussion (can’t change, quite rural, only doctor).

Well, I'm not a doc but FWIW it seems reasonable to have you on met for the moment. If you're the kind of T2 (like me) who responds to weight loss then you'll probably be fine to ditch it sometime if you continue to lose weight.

It's maybe helpful to know a bit about what met actually does. This never seems to be discussed by docs with patients - no idea why not. The main benefit of met is to reduce the over-production of glucose, mainly by your liver.

In the most common form of T2D, yr liver does this because it's got too much "visceral" fat around it => reduces insulin sensitivity => liver incorrectly thinks it needs to produce more glucose. Losing weight can clear the visceral fat, restore the liver's insulin sensitivity & stop it from chugging out a constant stream of unnecessary glucose.

In the meatime, metformin acts to increase insulin sensitivity and makes the liver behave a bit better, cutting the excess glucose production by maybe 30% or so.

Having higher than normal waking BG can be a sign that yr liver is doing the excess production thing, chugging away all night, and the typical benefit of metformin is mainly to reduce this waking BG. So there are maybe good reasons to stick with it at least for the moment.

Note that nothing in this has anything to do with amount of carbs you eat.

 

[Lynne888]

The numbers you quote are pretty "normal".

See this post: https://forum.diabetes.org.uk/boards/threads/bg-profiles-in-healthy-non-diabetics.99521/ for some data on "normal" BG levels, from a widely-cited 2019 study.

A waking/fasting read of <= 5.4 mmol/l is typically considered "normal", and almost all "normal" people spend some time during the day above 7.8 mmol/l.

It would be amazing if anybody recommended insulin for you, if the numbers you quote are a good representation of your BG levels.

FWIW, I reversed my T2D 3 1/2 years+ ago, via weight loss. My waking read is always somewhere in the 4.2 - 4.8 mmol/l range. I often go above 7.8 mmol/l briefly after eating, like most people, and don't care if I briefly go 9+, again like most people do from time to time. My HbA1c has been rock-steady at 35 mmol/mol for years.


These days I'm not concerned with how many carbs I eat, rather with other CV-healthy dietary measures, which are generally far more important. (Sharply limit saturated fats, refined carbs, sodium; eat lots of fibre, unsaturated fats, fruit, veggies.)

I also don't care about the Internet-quality advice you see to limit post-eating BG increases to 2-3 mmol/l. This is something that people say because people say it, if you know what I mean,but I have never seen any study supporting it, clinically. At best it's a really rough rule of thumb, but probably of limited use even for that.

More useful as rough rules of thumb are to try to keep post eating peak levels at no more than say 10 mmol/l, and no more than say ~8.5 mmol/l two hours after eating. Then maybe work down a bit further, but no need to stress about it.

Good luck!

Thanks for the link to the thread. Very informative. The reason I didn’t want to take metformin just yet was I wanted the doctor let me try without meds initially. I struggle with meds and get side effects to most things. It just seemed the best way to start and if I couldn’t reduce it with weight loss and no medication then the next stage would be metformin. It seems my readings are good but no different to when I started checking so I can’t see an improvement. I suppose I need to wait 3 months to see how it’s all going.

 

[Leadinglights]

Remission is usually having 2 HbA1C tests below 42mmol/mol without medication.
I think you are being a bit impatient and you are facing your situation and making some changes. Individual readings are only a guidance and looking at the trend over a several weeks as your body has to adapt to the new regime. You are in early days and going more gradually can be better for allowing the body to get used to lower blood glucose levels.
Many find that their morning level is the last to come down and they find that just getting up and pottering about raises their level as the liver tries to be super helpful in releasing glucose to give you energy in the absence of food (breakfast) for your organs to function.
A phrase often quoted is managing blood glucose levels is a marathon not a sprint.

 

[Lynne888]

Remission is usually having 2 HbA1C tests below 42mmol/mol without medication.
I think you are being a bit impatient and you are facing your situation and making some changes. Individual readings are only a guidance and looking at the trend over a several weeks as your body has to adapt to the new regime. You are in early days and going more gradually can be better for allowing the body to get used to lower blood glucose levels.
Many find that their morning level is the last to come down and they find that just getting up and pottering about raises their level as the liver tries to be super helpful in releasing glucose to give you energy in the absence of food (breakfast) for your organs to function.
A phrase often quoted is managing blood glucose levels is a marathon not a sprint.

Thanks Leadinglights.. I'm not impatient, just trying to learn how things work and doing the best for myself. I'm hoping there is a difference to my reading when I go back to the doctor and for that to happen I need to make sure I'm doing the right stuff! Some people seem to lose weight and not worry too much about how they do it, i.e. not cutting carbs etc but still manage to reverse diabetes. I'm just asking questions and finding out what has worked for others.

 

[Leadinglights]

Thanks Leadinglights.. I'm not impatient, just trying to learn how things work and doing the best for myself. I'm hoping there is a difference to my reading when I go back to the doctor and for that to happen I need to make sure I'm doing the right stuff! Some people seem to lose weight and not worry too much about how they do it, i.e. not cutting carbs etc but still manage to reverse diabetes. I'm just asking questions and finding out what has worked for others.

What you say just illustrates how different people are and you have to find the way that works for you. I learnt so much from folk on here so carry on asking.
Fingers crossed for your next test result.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Thanks Eddy. The morning readings are always in the sixes… no change really and that goes up to sevens usually within an hour of getting up. Never had a waking reading in the fours. I’ve never had readings of 9 or 10 at any time. I don’t think there’s any change to my readings since diagnosis. My GP will do what she likes. I told her I didn’t want metformin and I’d try to reverse it but she was having none of it. What she says goes. There’s no discussion (can’t change, quite rural, only doctor).

Why do you want a waking reading in the fours?
That's too low for me to be honest.
I use my liver dump to get me out of bed.
You said you low carb?
Higher waking levels in the sixes are quite normal with that diet.

 

[Lynne888]

Why do you want a waking reading in the fours?
That's too low for me to be honest.
I use my liver dump to get me out of bed.
You said you low carb?
Higher waking levels in the sixes are quite normal with that diet.

I only said that as it's what I've read on this website.. as I said, I'm learning and it's why I'm asking.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I only said that as it's what I've read on this website.. as I said, I'm learning and it's why I'm asking.

There are some weird posts on this site, true.
I found the best thing to do was to look at guidance from the NHS, Diabetes UK, and similar, and ignore the rest.
I did post on a different thread about made up rules.
The "four club"
Any rise after eating must be less than two.
Others chasing the high and testing every 15 minutes in case they miss it.
Testing and retesting because the reading changes by 0.1 on a different finger, while not accepting the average meter in about as accurate as me throwing a rock in a pond.
Insisting on "no drugs" because that's some sort of bad thing.
(I took everything I was offered)
Trying to push Hba1c down in weeks to show the doctors and nurses they were wrong then chasing to under 40.

You have good results.

 

[Lynne888]

Why do you want a waking reading in the fours?
That's too low for me to be honest.
I use my liver dump to get me out of bed.
You said you low carb?
Higher waking levels in the sixes are quite normal with that diet.

I never mentioned 4’s in my original
Post. I merely asked if readings had remained the same for others during three months before having another blood test. I don’t know if the readings I have now should get lower to help with reversal or if remaining the same is ok. I guess I won’t know until I have my next bloods taken. I don’t ‘low’ carb as in Keto. I do what it says on diabetes uk and have below 130 so I try to do 100 most days but it does fall lower depending what I have to eat. Today has been much higher as I’ve had family here for lunch and I have no willpower!!!

 

[Drummer]

First you aren't spiking into the teens after eating - so you seem able to cope with your 100gm/day - ish diet.
Unless you had reading from before changing to lower carbs you just can't really tell how things have changed - but the readings you are getting are around those I saw and at the first retest my Hba1c was no longer in the diabetic range, and at 6 months was at the top end of normal, so I really don't think you have anything to be concerned about.
I still see normal numbers after 5 years. I got a higher than usual Hba1c after having what must have been covid - I had the classic symptoms and was left with taste alteration, but no one told me at the time and a year later it was back to normal again.
Try not to worry and to keep your blood glucose as steady as possible and you should see improvements.
I found that I needed fewer carbs in the morning than the evening, as I did not cope with them so well early in the day - but that became obvious quite early on and could be corrected for by having the most carbs with the evening meal.

 

[Lynne888]

First you aren't spiking into the teens after eating - so you seem able to cope with your 100gm/day - ish diet.
Unless you had reading from before changing to lower carbs you just can't really tell how things have changed - but the readings you are getting are around those I saw and at the first retest my Hba1c was no longer in the diabetic range, and at 6 months was at the top end of normal, so I really don't think you have anything to be concerned about.
I still see normal numbers after 5 years. I got a higher than usual Hba1c after having what must have been covid - I had the classic symptoms and was left with taste alteration, but no one told me at the time and a year later it was back to normal again.
Try not to worry and to keep your blood glucose as steady as possible and you should see improvements.
I found that I needed fewer carbs in the morning than the evening, as I did not cope with them so well early in the day - but that became obvious quite early on and could be corrected for by having the most carbs with the evening meal.

Thanks Drummer. That makes sense. I wondered whether covid has pushed me over the threshold with diabetes.I got it in April and I was quite ill with it. I'll have to wait and see what happens. Fell off the wagon yesterday for the first time which I'm annoyed with myself about. Ate far more than I should but readings didn't go above 7.7. Today is another day!!

 

[Leadinglights]

Thanks Drummer. That makes sense. I wondered whether covid has pushed me over the threshold with diabetes.I got it in April and I was quite ill with it. I'll have to wait and see what happens. Fell off the wagon yesterday for the first time which I'm annoyed with myself about. Ate far more than I should but readings didn't go above 7.7. Today is another day!!

But that is still OK and the main thing is you enjoyed your day and as you say today is another day.
I had the same on Friday, a Handfasting ceremony, tacos, halloumi chips, cheese and too much Prosecco with added sloe gin.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Thanks Drummer. That makes sense. I wondered whether covid has pushed me over the threshold with diabetes.I got it in April and I was quite ill with it. I'll have to wait and see what happens. Fell off the wagon yesterday for the first time which I'm annoyed with myself about. Ate far more than I should but readings didn't go above 7.7. Today is another day!!

Again, that is a absolutely normal response.